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So, if I'm going up against Jetseer or something and they've got fortune up; then I cast Misfortune on them, how does that work?

You can never re-roll the same dice more than once, so do they just cancel out? Or does this craziness happen:

I inflict 10 wounds at AP2; he rolls his 10
4++ with 5 fails and 5 makes; statistics.

THEN, he must re-roll his fails looking for makes and his makes looking for fails? Lol.

I'm thinking the 1-reroll rule applies here and they cancel but I wasn't 100% so I need the help of the peanut gallery!

We play it that they cancel each other out and the unit just takes their saves once.

Those both cause re-rolls right? One the successful rolls, the other the failed ones.
So roll the dice at first, then reroll all fo them (failed ones thanks to Fortune, the successful ones from Misfortune).Only take the second roll in consideration.
It's shorter to just roll once, since you'd reroll all dice anyway.

While the two re-rolls do "cancel" each other out, both you and your opponent may want to make use of the re-rolls.

For example, if he passes all 10 saves on the first go, you'd want your Misfortune to kick in and make him re-roll, hoping he won't be so lucky the second time.
The same goes if he FAILS all 10 saves on the first go--now HE wants to use his Fortune re-rolls, and you should let him.

When I play against an Eldar, I make him re-roll if I don't like his saves results; if I'm fine with it (for example, 4/10 fails), I don't make him follow the rule. He is, of course, also free to re-roll if he doesn't like his results.

acctually, since its your turn you have the right to decide the order.


Have him roll his saves, and reroll the failed ones.

Then he rerolls all his successful ones again to give you total.



The "cannot reroll a reroll" does not come into effect here. That rule is written with the intent of a player who for example has twinlinked and prefferred enemy who rerolls all miss's, then rerolls the 1's as well.

When a reroll is forced by different players, it is not rerolling a reroll.


NOTE: this is how i interpret the rule and others might interpret it differently, but it seems pretty clear cut to me and makes the most sense.

Eihnlazer wrote:
When a reroll is forced by different players, it is not rerolling a reroll.

A re-roll is a re-roll; who it's forced by is not relevant.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
While the two re-rolls do "cancel" each other out, both you and your opponent may want to make use of the re-rolls.

For example, if he passes all 10 saves on the first go, you'd want your Misfortune to kick in and make him re-roll, hoping he won't be so lucky the second time.
The same goes if he FAILS all 10 saves on the first go--now HE wants to use his Fortune re-rolls, and you should let him.

When I play against an Eldar, I make him re-roll if I don't like his saves results; if I'm fine with it (for example, 4/10 fails), I don't make him follow the rule. He is, of course, also free to re-roll if he doesn't like his results.

Except there is no choice for misfortune he must re-roll successfully, and then will choose to re-roll failed a so it always comes out as rolling twice so it is almost always played as canceling out

You can stubbornly hold onto that train of thought, or do things in a way that both play smoother and do not detract from a players ability to use the toys they brought to play with.

Have him roll his saves, and reroll the failed ones.

Then he rerolls all his successful ones again to give you total.



The "cannot reroll a reroll" does not come into effect here. That rule is written with the intent of a player who for example has twinlinked and prefferred enemy who rerolls all miss's, then rerolls the 1's as well.

When a reroll is forced by different players, it is not rerolling a reroll.

Rerolling a roll that has been rerolled already most certainly is rerolling a reroll. That is literally the very definition of it.

You roll all the dice ignore it and roll again. Which is basically a waste of time so you may agree with your opponent to not bother actually making the first roll. This should be agreed and consistently done. I often like to reiterate it as I roll the dice with something like "this is the 2nd roll". I know a player who insists on you rolling the first set in which case I just pick up the relevant number of dice and throw them on the other end of the table and make my 2nd roll without even looking at the first.

Eihnlazer wrote:
You can stubbornly hold onto that train of thought, or do things in a way that both play smoother and do not detract from a players ability to use the toys they brought to play with.

Ok if I ever play against someone that want to see the first roll then decide I will do as below and pickit up and roll it again without looking. Here's the thing if you don't agree to the faster method whichever player ends up on the short end of the roll will always want to re-roll it. So we have a 4+ with a re-roll....I roll 6/10 saves on the first roll so you want me to re-roll. If I end up with 4/10 I'll want to re-roll. So it is easier faster and in every case equivalent to just rolling once.... All you add is the ability to roll a bunch more dice for no reason.

I like the idea of applying both rules when possible, so re rolling the passed save and 're rolling the failed ones (but never the same dice) gells quite well for me.

Example

Roll 10 dice
5 pass save
5 failed

Re do the 5 passed to apply misfortune, result sticks
're do the 5 failed to apply fortune, result sticks
never re roll a re roll

But then why roll twice? If you never keep the first roll the results are functionally equivalent.

Breng77 wrote:
But then why roll twice? If you never keep the first roll the results are functionally equivalent.

Because of my example earlier, that's why. If the lucky Eldar passes all ten saves, you will definitely want him to re-roll those.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
But then why roll twice? If you never keep the first roll the results are functionally equivalent.

Because of my example earlier, that's why. If the lucky Eldar passes all ten saves, you will definitely want him to re-roll those.

And if he's unlucky he's re-rolling them all.
Pass or fail it's getting re-rolled.
The first roll is completely pointless.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Because of my example earlier, that's why. If the lucky Eldar passes all ten saves, you will definitely want him to re-roll those.

Whether you assume that the first roll 'happened' and he passes all 10 saves, or you roll the 10 dice and then re-roll the 10 and he passes all of hit saves, the outcome is the same.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
But then why roll twice? If you never keep the first roll the results are functionally equivalent.

Because of my example earlier, that's why. If the lucky Eldar passes all ten saves, you will definitely want him to re-roll those.

So you only enforce the rules when it's beneficial to you?

The technical way to do it is roll all saves. Then roll them again, take the final and only the final result.

For times sake, so long as you and your opponent agree, you can just roll the dice once. It is one of the only way to counter the 2+/2++ rerollable armies.

There is absolutely no choice, and it doesn't matter who forces the reroll, etc. You can only reroll once.


Roll all saves.
Reroll all successful Saves and failed Saves. It is the Same all rerolling all dice.
Take the final result.
No further rerolls are possible.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
But then why roll twice? If you never keep the first roll the results are functionally equivalent.

Because of my example earlier, that's why. If the lucky Eldar passes all ten saves, you will definitely want him to re-roll those.

My point is that he is equally likely to pass all 10 on the second roll as he is on the first...playing your way except in the case where saves are exactly odds (and sometimes even then...one player will want to re-roll, so you will always roll twice, so why not just skip rolling extra dice and call it a day. Essentially if the first roll never counts why bother.

Almost everyone I know of, and seen at tournaments, just say they cancel out. Roll once. More so in a timed setting or you could get hit with slow play.

Exaltation for everyone!

Fascinating discussion; I'm with the "just roll once crew."

rigeld2 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
But then why roll twice? If you never keep the first roll the results are functionally equivalent.

Because of my example earlier, that's why. If the lucky Eldar passes all ten saves, you will definitely want him to re-roll those.

So you only enforce the rules when it's beneficial to you?

If my opponent has Dozer Blades, and fails his dangerous terrain test, and doesn't re-roll, and I say, "Hey, you get a re-roll for your Dozer Blades!" and he says, "I don't feel like it"....then no, I'm not going to enforce the rule and MAKE him re-roll when he doesn't want to for whatever strange reason. Would you, in that situation? And if you would, do you think your insistence would result in a better playing experience?

If somebody's actually got some tactical reason to want to fail a required re-roll, he still has to re-roll, and yes, I'd insist that the rules be followed precisely because they're intentionally breaking the rules to their own advantage. That's hardly a good reason to add a bunch of mucking about with optional re-rolls for no particular apparent purpose whatsoever.

Eihnlazer wrote:
acctually, since its your turn you have the right to decide the order.

No, that isnt what page 9 states. Only ONE player has to reroll, the player making the saves. YOU dont do something at the same time, so page 9 has no relevance here

Eihnlazer wrote:The "cannot reroll a reroll" does not come into effect here. That rule is written with the intent of a player who for example has twinlinked and prefferred enemy who rerolls all miss's, then rerolls the 1's as well.

It absolutely comes into play, as it makes no mention of a "player" rerolling a rerolling. It is a blanket ban on rerolling a reroll.

Eihnlazer wrote:When a reroll is forced by different players, it is not rerolling a reroll.

Not a rule.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
But then why roll twice? If you never keep the first roll the results are functionally equivalent.

Because of my example earlier, that's why. If the lucky Eldar passes all ten saves, you will definitely want him to re-roll those.

So you only enforce the rules when it's beneficial to you?

If my opponent has Dozer Blades, and fails his dangerous terrain test, and doesn't re-roll, and I say, "Hey, you get a re-roll for your Dozer Blades!" and he says, "I don't feel like it"....then no, I'm not going to enforce the rule and MAKE him re-roll when he doesn't want to for whatever strange reason. Would you, in that situation? And if you would, do you think your insistence would result in a better playing experience?

Except that Dozer Blades by their wording are optional, and misfortune is not.

Let's say there are 10 saves, roll 10red dice and 10 white dice at the same time, then declare red are roll one white are roll 2.

Next turn reverse it so white is roll 1.

By turn 5 both of you will have forgotten and you can just pick whatever helps your game most.

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Elric Greywolf wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
But then why roll twice? If you never keep the first roll the results are functionally equivalent.

Because of my example earlier, that's why. If the lucky Eldar passes all ten saves, you will definitely want him to re-roll those.

So you only enforce the rules when it's beneficial to you?

If my opponent has Dozer Blades, and fails his dangerous terrain test, and doesn't re-roll, and I say, "Hey, you get a re-roll for your Dozer Blades!" and he says, "I don't feel like it"....then no, I'm not going to enforce the rule and MAKE him re-roll when he doesn't want to for whatever strange reason. Would you, in that situation? And if you would, do you think your insistence would result in a better playing experience?

If it's optional, no I won't.
Fortune/Misfortune is not optional. I do try to follow the rules - even the determine tall ones - while playing. Otherwise you're better off going "pew pew" and "zoooooom" with your toy soldiers.

Wasn't there a FAQ of some sort from GW on an issue like this? I don't know if it was for 40k or for Fantasy and It may have been from a previous edition. However the FAQ stated that in order to know what saves had failed you had to determine which ones had passed first. So this meant that the following would occur:

1) Unit rolls armour saves for wounds taken (keep them aside).

2) Unit re-rolls any failed armour saves (add them to the previous passes).

3) Unit then re-rolls succesful armour saves and see which ones fail.

No, there hasnt been a FAQ like that. THere was a 5th edition FAQ which stated they "effectively" cancel each other out - so you can just roll once - however you ened to remember when doing that that you cannot then reroll any of them, if you have another reroll from another source such as the MoT.

I'm not clear on your list - you seem to be keeping some aside, then adding, then rerolling, which could end up with a reroll of a reroll? Its not clear what youre keeping aside - if you are at 1) keeping aside successes, and at 2) rerolling fails into successes, and then at 3) rerolling all of them then that is wrong.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
No, there hasnt been a FAQ like that. THere was a 5th edition FAQ which stated they "effectively" cancel each other out - so you can just roll once - however you ened to remember when doing that that you cannot then reroll any of them, if you have another reroll from another source such as the MoT.

Fair enough, like I said I'm not sure what system or what edition the FAQ applied to. Its just something I vaguely remembered. Perhaps I'm just misremembering something here.

I'm not clear on your list - you seem to be keeping some aside, then adding, then rerolling, which could end up with a reroll of a reroll? Its not clear what youre keeping aside - if you are at 1) keeping aside successes, and at 2) rerolling fails into successes, and then at 3) rerolling all of them then that is wrong.

I'm just going by what I remember from what I stated above. If this cropped up in a game of 40k then I would probably agree that they cancel each other out.

You're right in saying that the scenario I posted above would lead to a re-roll of a re-roll which in the BRB is against the rules, but I was just wondering what this FAQ I was thinking about was for.

As I said, I can only recall one FAQ on this topic, ever, which said they effectively cancel out.