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Well, with that line of logic, how do you explain five models from one unit that are in base contact with five models from another causing 6 or more casualties? It's the same thing, really.
And yes, all wounds are rolled together. So you don't roll one separately from the others when the rules give us zero ways to pick out specific non-champion, non-character models from other identical models.

for the same reason you stated above, you cannot claim to be in base contact with the entire unit if your rolling all wounds at the same time, there are no rules to cover the situation hence why I offered a soloution the would appease both parties evenly, one player doesn't get gimped by having his entire unit counting as in base contact when a majority of wounds that are allocated are allocated to models not in base contact and the other still gets the effect of an item he bought

I get what you're saying, but I'm not claiming anything except what the rules state. If you're in base contact with one rank and file, you're in contact with "the unit". You're not allowed to pick out one model for any reason; casualties are removed from the back, just 'cause.

no your not allowed to pick one model, but being in contact with the unit is not equivilant to being in base to base contact.

the tricksters hard ONLY applies to models that are in base to base contact. this to me is the permission to single out models as it is not physically possible to be in base contact with a multi-ranked unit of RnF with a single model.

yes casualties are removed from the back but that doesn't mean that it is those models specifically that sustained the wound to begin with, just that it is a game mechanic to make things easier during play.

I'll have a proper look when I'm back with my Library to back this up, but it would e fundamentally unfair imo to have something apply to a whole unit when its requirement is unmet.

You are in base contact with the models you are attacking. The models in base ARE the models being hit, you just remove from the back to represent the models in back moving up.

The reroll affect would apply to the whole "unit", as every model you hit IS a model in base contact, by definition .

The reroll affect would apply to the whole "unit", as every model you hit IS a model in base contact, by definition .

I agree with you nosferatu, I just want to point out that it's the case for all attacks coming from the model wearing the OTS, other attacking models might not beenfit from the OTS, depending on their position
My point is just to avoid confusion for newcomers to the thread

Warpsolution wrote:
I get what you're saying, but I'm not claiming anything except what the rules state. If you're in base contact with one rank and file, you're in contact with "the unit". You're not allowed to pick out one model for any reason; casualties are removed from the back, just 'cause.

You actually are allowed to pick out models. It's just than rank and file are removed from the back.
The Cygor can re-roll to hit against models with magic items.
If a standard bearer is kill, another rank and file pick up the standard.
As per the beast FAQ, they cygor can single out the standard bearer for his attacks, getting a re-roll to hit. Casualties are still pulled from the rear.

-Matt

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are in base contact with the models you are attacking. The models in base ARE the models being hit, you just remove from the back to represent the models in back moving up.

The reroll affect would apply to the whole "unit", as every model you hit IS a model in base contact, by definition .

I disagree with this statement and I'll throw up an example of why.

moving away from the OP's example of a monster with rider ect and we will make this more basic.

20 warriors of chaos vs 20 bloodletters

within the block of warriors is a sorcerer who has taken TOTS and a full command.

the blood letters are just a block of blood letters with full command.

in the formation I have placed the sorcerer in one of the 2 corners (doesn't matter for this example) and lets say the two units have a 5 man frontage for arguments sake.

now, physically only 2 blood letters are in base contact with the sorcerer, but by your definition the entire unit is considered in base contact with him and any wounds inflicted by the RnF warriors of chaos would also need to have re-rolled ward saves.

I think this is inaccurate.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
...this to me is the permission to...

As soon as anyone uses phrasing like this, they've taken it upon themselves to interpret the rule, rather than follow the rules to the letter. Which is what I'm talking about.
Though, honestly, in this case, I'd play it RAW, too. Your character is making a handful of my Phoenix Guard or Daemons re-roll their Ward saves? Okay. That means you either didn't take a Ward save yourself, or that yours is also working at half capacity. So it'll be that much easier to kill him dead.

 HawaiiMatt wrote:
The Cygor can re-roll to hit against models with magic items.
If a standard bearer is kill, another rank and file pick up the standard.
As per the beast FAQ, they cygor can single out the standard bearer for his attacks, getting a re-roll to hit. Casualties are still pulled from the rear.

I stand corrected! Very interesting. All right. So there is one instance I know of that allows you to pick models out of combat. This situation with the Other Trickster's Shard, however, is not one of them.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
now, physically only 2 blood letters are in base contact with the sorcerer, but by your definition the entire unit is considered in base contact with him and any wounds inflicted by the RnF warriors of chaos would also need to have re-rolled ward saves.

I think this is inaccurate.

It is. And that's not what would happen. Any wounds caused by the two Warriors in base contact with the two Bloodletters would, indeed, force Ward saves to be re-rolled. Let's say those Warriors and the Sorcerer somehow inflict a total of 5 wounds. Even though there are only 2 enemy models in base contact, they would still force successful Ward saves to be re-rolled for all 5 wounds. Because:

1. Mechanics: all wounds happen simultaneously. If you rolled them separately, it could be possible for the two 'letters to save their wounds, even after the re-roll. Which would mean that they're still standing there. And they're still in base contact. Which means the next wounds would be applied to those same models, forcing those re-rolls again. The only way to determine how that would work out would be to roll the Ward saves one at a time. Which isn't how we do things.
2. In-game reasoning, a.k.a. "fluff": there's a bit in Close Combat about what happens when a model causes more casualties than the number of models he's in base contact with; something about how the attacking model steps over the fallen in search of a new foe.
So, you see, every model that the bearer of the Shard slays is indeed in base contact with him. He kills the first one, then the next steps up to the front rank, and he kills that one, etc.

I guess I'd put it thusly: a model with the Other Trickster's Shard is treated as being in base contact with every normal rank-and-file model that it wounds in CC. Not the whole unit. Just the ones that it wounded. Which it couldn't do, unless it was in contact with at least one such model. But all it needs is one. Them's the rules.

Warpsolution wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
...this to me [i]is the permission to...

As soon as anyone uses phrasing like this, they've taken it upon themselves to interpret the rule, rather than follow the rules to the letter. Which is what I'm talking about.
Though, honestly, in this case, I'd play it RAW, too. Your character is making a handful of my Phoenix Guard or Daemons re-roll their Ward saves? Okay. That means you either didn't take a Ward save yourself, or that yours is also working at half capacity. So it'll be that much easier to kill him dead.

2 things:

1: I don't appreciate being misquoted in the context as you did here.

2: you are not considered in base contact with yourself in a strict RAW environment.

Warpsolution wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
now, physically only 2 blood letters are in base contact with the sorcerer, but by your definition the entire unit is considered in base contact with him and any wounds inflicted by the RnF warriors of chaos would also need to have re-rolled ward saves.

I think this is inaccurate.

It is. And that's not what would happen. Any wounds caused by the two Warriors in base contact with the two Bloodletters would, indeed, force Ward saves to be re-rolled. Let's say those Warriors and the Sorcerer somehow inflict a total of 5 wounds. Even though there are only 2 enemy models in base contact, they would still force successful Ward saves to be re-rolled for all 5 wounds. Because:

interesting, your now splitting up the warriors attacks, all attacks are after all rolled together, only the sorcerer would roll independently due to him being different, in this instance, he is in base contact with 2 blood letters and there are 2 RnF warriors in base with those, however why would you 'now' be pooling the wounds that these 2 warriors cause instead of pooling all the wounds the warriors cause collectively if he's in base contact with the unit as you claim?.

Warpsolution wrote:

1. Mechanics: all wounds happen simultaneously. If you rolled them separately, it could be possible for the two 'letters to save their wounds, even after the re-roll. Which would mean that they're still standing there. And they're still in base contact. Which means the next wounds would be applied to those same models, forcing those re-rolls again. The only way to determine how that would work out would be to roll the Ward saves one at a time. Which isn't how we do things.

need to stop you there, if 'ALL' wounds are rolled at the same time, then there can be no physical way that he is in base contact with all of them, you even said above that it would only apply to the theoretical 5 wounds caused by 3 models, ignoring the wounds caused by the rest of unit that are not connected to the 3 models effected.

Warpsolution wrote:

2. In-game reasoning, a.k.a. "fluff": there's a bit in Close Combat about what happens when a model causes more casualties than the number of models he's in base contact with; something about how the attacking model steps over the fallen in search of a new foe.
So, you see, every model that the bearer of the Shard slays is indeed in base contact with him. He kills the first one, then the next steps up to the front rank, and he kills that one, etc.

a fluff line to say that the wounds generated carry into the unit does not = being in base contact, being in base contact = being in base contact. as it happens its not in italics so as such its actually a rule, but it does not stipulate that models that are not in base contact at the time of wounds inflicting become or are treated as being in base contact. you are of course referring to p51 but do note that this does not say you are in base contact during the excess wounds and as such cannot therefore complete the requirement for the shard to apply.

Warpsolution wrote:


I guess I'd put it thusly: a model with the Other Trickster's Shard is treated as being in base contact with every normal rank-and-file model that it wounds in CC. Not the whole unit. Just the ones that it wounded. Which it couldn't do, unless it was in contact with at least one such model. But all it needs is one. Them's the rules.

only the tricksters shard doesn't say wounds caused by the model carrying it. it just says models in base contact re-roll ward saves. so your sentence cannot be correct.

I believe that if you're in contact with any rank and file your attacks, and the debuff, works on them. As stated, you're merely removing from the back for simplicity.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are in base contact with the models you are attacking. The models in base ARE the models being hit, you just remove from the back to represent the models in back moving up.

The reroll affect would apply to the whole "unit", as every model you hit IS a model in base contact, by definition .

I think this reasoning stands up if both 1) the model inflicting the impact hits is in b2b with 1 rbf model and 2) there are more than 5 rnf.

When you start to allocate as per shooting (less than 5 rnf) then step up no longer applies, sonce the wounds are targeted, so you can see who is on b2b.

As far as nutty's woc example, it would only mean rerolls of attacks for warriors who could be attacking models in b2b with the sorceror.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
2 things:

1: I don't appreciate being misquoted in the context as you did here.

2: you are not considered in base contact with yourself in a strict RAW environment.

1. I didn't misquote you. That is exactly what you said, emphasis mine. I'm simply pointing out that such phrasing does not help your point. 2. Fair enough. I suppose it only would make friendly models in base contact re-roll Wards, but not the model itself.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
interesting, your now splitting up the warriors attacks, all attacks are after all rolled together, only the sorcerer would roll independently due to him being different, in this instance, he is in base contact with 2 blood letters and there are 2 RnF warriors in base with those, however why would you 'now' be pooling the wounds that these 2 warriors cause instead of pooling all the wounds the warriors cause collectively if he's in base contact with the unit as you claim?

...need to stop you there, if 'ALL' wounds are rolled at the same time, then there can be no physical way that he is in base contact with all of them, you even said above that it would only apply to the theoretical 5 wounds caused by 3 models, ignoring the wounds caused by the rest of unit that are not connected to the 3 models effected.

If a unit is attacking two groups of models with different rules (T, armour, W, or, in this case, re-rolling successful Wards or not), you of course roll the attacks separately. But you don't get to roll to wound, then saves, to determine how many wounds This One Guy Right Here soaks up before he bites it. You roll all saves of each group caused by each enemy group at once.

Example: you've got a Chaos Sorcerer and some halberd-wielding Chaos Warriors fighting Bloodletters and a Bloodthirster. The Sorcerer decides to attack the 'letters once, and the 'thirster once. Obviously, he rolls these attacks separately. Same goes for the other three units involved.
The Bloodthirster took a wound from the Sorcerer, and two wounds from the Warriors. He's roll those saves separately. Just like the Bloodletters would roll "wounds caused by Chaos Warriors on Bloodletters in base contact with the Trickster's Shard" and "regular Ward save wounds" separately.
But you would not further divide "wounds caused by Chaos Warriors on Bloodletters in base contact with the Trickster's Shard" to "the two guys in the front rank" and "the rest". You're just not allowed to do pick out models like that, without explicit permission.

I already clarified: he's not in base contact with the whole unit. He's in base contact with the two Bloodletters. But, if only 2 Bloodletter models need to re-roll successful Ward saves, you'd need to roll each save, one at a time, and allocate the wounds after determining whether or not those models required more than one wound to be killed. Unless you're saying that the sorcerer and the Warriors can attack the two 'Letters in base contact, not kill them, and then attack over them to kill other models? That makes no sense.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
a fluff line to say that the wounds generated carry into the unit does not = being in base contact, being in base contact = being in base contact. as it happens its not in italics so as such its actually a rule, but it does not stipulate that models that are not in base contact at the time of wounds inflicting become or are treated as being in base contact. you are of course referring to p51 but do note that this does not say you are in base contact during the excess wounds and as such cannot therefore complete the requirement for the shard to apply.

I know full well it's not a rule. I said as much. You're the one who was looking for something that satisfied the rules and in-game logic. I'm just offering a different perspective.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
only the tricksters shard doesn't say wounds caused by the model carrying it. it just says models in base contact re-roll ward saves. so your sentence cannot be correct.

*sigh* Okay, fine. The Shard forces successful Ward saves to be re-rolled due to the wounds caused by the bearer and any other combatants in base contact with the same models as the bearer that are also attacking those models.
It's a mouthful, but it's not forcing you to change up how you play out CC.

Niteware wrote:
When you start to allocate as per shooting (less than 5 rnf) then step up no longer applies, sonce the wounds are targeted, so you can see who is on b2b.

Huh. True. So, to me, it looks like the way the Other Trickster's Shard works changes, depending on the combat, and the size of the enemy unit, when it comes to Impact Hits.

Niteware wrote:
As far as nutty's woc example, it would only mean rerolls of attacks for warriors who could be attacking models in b2b with the sorceror.

Yes. Exactly. But the Shard is not limited to working on only that specific number models; it will affect any and all wounds scored against the unit whose regular rank-and-file are in base contact with the Shard, but only from those models in base contact with the ones in base contact with the Shard.

Yes - number of attacks is not limited thanks to step up.

@Warpsolution

you oppinion is either the same as mine (rolling hits/wounds that are in base contact with a model equiped with The Other Tricksters Shard seperatly) or not, your breakdown appears to shift between opinions.

also 'sigh'ing is quite rude, I'm not making personal attacks or trying to be obtuse, simply stating that the given soloution of counting every RnF as being in base contact with a single model as rediculas unless they actually were in base contact.

@Niteware, correct although effect ranges must be considered and items specifically stating base contact should reamin as such.

Every RnF does not need to be in Base contact, if any are that is the one hits are resolved against.
Thus the constant reference to Step Up.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
@Warpsolution

you oppinion is either the same as mine (rolling hits/wounds that are in base contact with a model equiped with The Other Tricksters Shard seperatly) or not, your breakdown appears to shift between opinions.

also 'sigh'ing is quite rude, I'm not making personal attacks or trying to be obtuse, simply stating that the given soloution of counting every RnF as being in base contact with a single model as rediculas unless they actually were in base contact.

@Niteware, correct although effect ranges must be considered and items specifically stating base contact should reamin as such.

I would say that "effect range" only comes in to play when "step up" is not in play.

Step Up means that when a RnF model dies, another RnF is instantaneously in B2B,. As long as there were 5 RnF models at the point of impact, all wounds ae taken by guys clammering to get to the front. This is internally consistent, since extra wounds (ie if more impact wounds happen than there are RnF) are lost.

If there are fewer than 5 RnF, there are fewer bodies attempting to step up, so it makes sense that the wounds are distributed differently and that this then changes how OTS works.

@nutty_nutter: I'm saying exactly what kirsanth and Niteware are saying, which is exactly what I've said this whole time.

I'm trying to explain a really vague concept here, so yeah, it got pretty convoluted. If you ask for clarification about any of my points, I will try to explain further.

And, well, when you spend a few hundred words explaining something to someone, and your point is still apparently unclear, it gets a little frustrating. And you start to wonder whether the other person has too strong a bias, etc.
I don't think "sighing" is quite rude--maybe a little rude, but it wouldn't be hard to be about a jillion times ruder--but I apologize.

All attacks are resolved against the models your in base contact with. If you kill all of those, more step up to take their place, and you kill those guys too.

I understand where you guys are coming from but do you not see a problem by using that as a basis for the other tricksters shard?

lets take this to an extreme:

a horde of bloodletters, 100 models wide and 100 models deep vs a horde of chaos warriors also 100 wide and deep.

(I'm using these as examples since they stand on the same base)

I have a sorcerer in the left most corner of the warriors, all others are RnF, the deamons are just RnF.

disregarding the fact the letters in base contact with him will try to kill him for the moment.

by the virtue that as long as a single bloodletter, or in this case 2, are in base contact with the sorcerer, that they all count as being in base contact with him and as such all wounds caused by both the sorcerer and the warriors would have successful ward saves taken against them re-rolled.

this seems to me not to be the way that the shard was meant to be played.

don't get me wrong, I am open to being incorrect, but I feel that the restriction of base contact actually means base contact, and in this example, 2 wounds should be either rolled separately, or all those able to hit those effected should roll all their dice separately in the interests of attempting to keep to the shards wording.

I do not have a bias other than trying to come to terms with a resolution that to me has no logical sense, and although stepup is fine as a concept, it lacks the wording to support the 'counts as in base contact' due to not actually saying as such. to my mind its actually saying that wounds are removed from the front going backwards, but because it's easier remove from the back, as for the most part, they are one and the same.

also, glad we are now on the same page

the folks over here in the whfb section are more open to a proper non-personal debate than over in the 40k one...it too often degenerates over there.

Ok, 10 wide bloodletters vs 10wide chaos warriors.

The sorcerer with the OTS is near the center, so he touches 3 bloodletters.
The sorcerer, and 4 chaos warriors would touch the frontage of bloodletters that must re-roll ward saves, along with 5 supporting warriors from the 2nd and 3rd rank.
You would get 2 sorcerer attacks, 8 warrior attacks, and 10 more supporting warrior attacks that can all be allocated to models touching a the shard.
Sounds good right?
Maybe. The sorcerer is touching the chaos warriors on either side, and the the 5 wide bloodletters, along with 2 groups of 5 supporting, can all throw attacks on warriors who have to re-roll ward saves as well (parry saves too).

If you stick the sorcerer in the corner to limit killing blow attacks going his way, you end up 9 bloodletters gaining the bonus instead of 15; and same goes for the warriors.

Out of the 30 bloodletter attacks, 9-15 are going to be swinging on foes who re-roll wards and 15 to 21 will be swinging on foes with normal saves.

-Matt

Exactly. Any models in base contact with the models in base contact with the Sorcerer force successful Ward saves to be re-rolled. Assuming they direct attacks at the models in base contact with the Sorcerer (which is all they can do, in the above example; there'd need to be another character or something involved for that to matter).

Once more: the Shard doesn't work on the whole unit. Only the wounds caused by the models in base contact with the models in base contact with the Shard are affected.
But if those wounds, were, say, the 10 caused by a Vampire Blender-Lord, who's only in base contact with 3 models, all 10 of those wounds would benefit from the Shard.

And, of course, the Impact Hit-thing makes it a little weirder, once the unit drops to less than 5 models.