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Played a game last night and came up against something I have never seen before.

My opponent had a unit of 5 Dwarf Slayers. (Couple of Different types)
He charged my unit of Ironguts with them and lined them up in a line not a rank.
He them basically claimed that as the front two had a different stat line then I could only kill the first one meaning I would win the combat but as Slayers are unbreakable then they would hold me there and allow me to be flank charged and front charged next turn.
I was always under the impression you had to maximize your bases on a charge.
I can honestly see this leading to loads of big snake units in future.

Was he correct?

You can't reform during a charge, but if he had them already lined up in a conga line, you can pull those shenanigans, yes.

I'm a bit confused by your story. If he already had them in the conga line formation, then they should stay in that formation, as units may not change formation when charging. If he charge with them lined up 5 wide and then changed them to 5 deep, that was cheating.

As far as the conga line formation itself, though, that's legit. It doesn't work quite as well against a large unit of ogres, because you still get to stomp on the rest of the unit, but you can only direct attacks against the upgraded slayer in the front.

Slayers are unusual in the sense that they get to take lots of unit champions (Giantslayers? I can't remember what they're called). It's not exactly clear whether killing one of them results in killing the other ones, but it's clear that killing them with attacks won't transfer through to the rest of the unit (Trollslayers?).

So in sum, the strategy works and is legal. However, there's a lot of ways to deal with it. Principally, a t4 unit of 5 models with no saves of any sort at all is quite vulnerable to any sort of shooting and most magic missiles.

Cheers for the clarification guys.
He was indeed in a conga line before the charge.
It was just I had never came across it before.

Thanks

Wounds allocated to a character in b2b can only be transferred to RnF if there is no ongoing challange. They cannot be transferred to another character.

So if he has multiple characters in the unit (i.e. champion, giantslayer, dragonslayer, mageslayer), only the character in b2b recieves the wounds in the ongoing combat.


But yes, if he was already formed up into a line of guys, they can indeed benefit from steadfast and you can only combat them with a limited number of ogres.

Slayers are Unbreakable.
Slayers can take multiple unit champions.

While it can be a bit of a pain, remember that impact hits and stomps distribute like shooting.
While your ASF great weapon attacks can only go on the model in base to base, the impact hits and the stomps are hitting the unit.

Expect to be tied up for a turn or two.

@Eihnlazer: they wouldn't benefit from Steadfast, since they're not in ranks of 5. But Unbreakable doesn't care about anything ever.

@GBDarkAngel: I wouldn't expect to see many conga-lines. Slayers are the only ones who can really do it, and the unit costs something like 75pts, and it's got 5 T4 wounds with no saves.
With Impact and Stomp, those two Ogres they're in B2B with will take them out in the next combat phase, basically guaranteed.

I like the Dwarfen-chain formation for Slayers: one mega-wide rank to completely block off a chunk of the board.

Surely though, slayers and troll slayers aren't characters, so wounds transfer to other slayers. Giant slayers are characters iirc, so it is inly them you need worry about.

Because the Slayers charged a unit Ironguts with GW, The stomp attacks would be lost unless you failed to gill the model with notmal attacks, as they strike at the same Inititive as the GW. and will all go into the front most model Only model in B2b, They could not be distributed into the unit, as the only model in b2b is a character. Impact hits how ever are distributed as Shooting, so they would end up in the unit.

cawizkid wrote:
Because the Slayers charged a unit Ironguts with GW, The stomp attacks would be lost unless you failed to gill the model with notmal attacks, as they strike at the same Inititive as the GW. and will all go into the front most model Only model in B2b, They could not be distributed into the unit, as the only model in b2b is a character. Impact hits how ever are distributed as Shooting, so they would end up in the unit.

Stomps are distributed as shooting, so get distributed.

Niteware wrote:

cawizkid wrote:
Because the Slayers charged a unit Ironguts with GW, The stomp attacks would be lost unless you failed to gill the model with notmal attacks, as they strike at the same Inititive as the GW. and will all go into the front most model Only model in B2b, They could not be distributed into the unit, as the only model in b2b is a character. Impact hits how ever are distributed as Shooting, so they would end up in the unit.

Stomps are distributed as shooting, so get distributed.

Was this in an FAQ? I do not have it in front of me, and can not access the GW site from work. I do have the BRB, and it does not say distributated as shooting for stomps.

I'm not sure where the idea that stomp is distributed as per shooting comes from.
It is just base contact.
Slayer speed bump sounds like a real bitch.

Ah, may be wrong about the distribution then - as my flag shows, I'm away atm. More important point is that unit champions still take extra wounds done to the unit, so it is only actual characters which can cause conga roadblocks.

 Peasant wrote:
I'm not sure where the idea that stomp is distributed as per shooting comes from.
It is just base contact.
Slayer speed bump sounds like a real bitch.

You stomp on a UNIT in base to base, not on a Model.
-Matt

Pg# please? If a Char wall is in front how is it resolved?

 HawaiiMatt wrote:

 Peasant wrote:
I'm not sure where the idea that stomp is distributed as per shooting comes from.
It is just base contact.
Slayer speed bump sounds like a real bitch.

You stomp on a UNIT in base to base, not on a Model.
-Matt

That is not entirely correct, a stomp is an extra CC attack that has the ASL Rule. Technically all attacks go into the unit, How ever you are allowed to distribute your attacks into any model in CC. if only characters are in B2b, Then they count as a unit for this purpose as you can only send CC attacks into models that are in B2B. Much like a Bret Train that is lead by three Characters, Even when shooting you randomize between which character you hit, not the unit behind them. If you had a model that did not have ASL, Lets a a normal bull, then the I2 attacks would go into the first model, Then if he is dead, your stomps could go into who ever steps up, but if you have a GW then those attacks and the Stomps go at the same time. The best way to take out a conga line is with none ASL models Say you got the charge, you do your inpact hits. and most likely kill a slayer, then you do your normal attacks and kill a slayer, then your stomps can kill another Slayer. then the next turn they all die.

cawizkid wrote:
Much like a Bret Train that is lead by three Characters, Even when shooting you randomize between which character you hit, not the unit behind them.

That is not how shooting works, as long as there are 5 or more models besides characters in the unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:
Surely though, slayers and troll slayers aren't characters, so wounds transfer to other slayers. Giant slayers are characters iirc, so it is inly them you need worry about.

There's no such thing as a regular "Slayer". They slay Trolls (rank and file), Giants (champion), Dragons (hero), and Daemons (Lord). So yes, the Giant Slayer champion at the front of the conga line is the only one you can direct attacks against until he's dead.
Impact Hits are distributed as shooting. So, as long as there are 5 or more models besides the G.S., he's immune to them. Then you swing, and squish him, and then you Stomp on the unit.

Again I can't find anything saying to distribute the stomps via shooting.
i don't have my rulebook on me, but doesn't it say stomps are close combat attacks that strike last against any model for n base to base contact?

 Peasant wrote:
Again I can't find anything saying to distribute the stomps via shooting.
i don't have my rulebook on me, but doesn't it say stomps are close combat attacks that strike last against any model for n base to base contact?

It states that it is a special attack in addition to other close combat attacks (so it is a close combat attack) that has ASL and inflicts 1 auto hit at strength to a single (applicable) unit in base contact.

Not against a model, so it is just like the rest of Close Combat.

Warpsolution wrote:

cawizkid wrote:
Much like a Bret Train that is lead by three Characters, Even when shooting you randomize between which character you hit, not the unit behind them.

That is not how shooting works, as long as there are 5 or more models besides characters in the unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niteware wrote:
Surely though, slayers and troll slayers aren't characters, so wounds transfer to other slayers. Giant slayers are characters iirc, so it is inly them you need worry about.

There's no such thing as a regular "Slayer". They slay Trolls (rank and file), Giants (champion), Dragons (hero), and Daemons (Lord). So yes, the Giant Slayer champion at the front of the conga line is the only one you can direct attacks against until he's dead.
Impact Hits and Stomps are distributed as shooting. So, as long as there are 5 or more models besides the G.S., he's immune to them. Then you swing, and squish him, and then you Stomp on the unit.

I know there are different types, but they are all still Slayers, call them what you like. You can only wound models in B2B when in CC. Impact hits and Stomps are CC attacks. The reason you take from the Back of a unit instead of the front is for ease of pulling models, Technically the Models in B2B are the ones dyeing and others are stepping up and dying as they do. You cannot distribute wounds to a model not in B2B Contact. which is why you can not reach over or around to hit models/Characters in Back ranks. Distributed as shooting for Impact hits means you cannot apply all the attacks to one character model if there are more than 5 rank and file models in the unit. If there are less you can put them on whoever you wan as long as it is in B2B .

If you have read the example given, you will see that it was 5 Models in the Unit and a couple of different types, Thus there were not 5 rank and file models in this unit. So has the Ogres charged all impact hits would indeed go to the first X Slayer model in combat, as he is most likely going to die from these, All normal attacks would have then gone into Y Slayer model. Unless the second model was the same as the first, then extra wounds would have transferred. Same goes for normal attacks. So for arguments sake, let’s say it the first model is dragon slayer, second model is Giant Slayer, Third-Fifth models are Troll Slayers. but this is all Mute, as the Slayers Charged.

Example given Slayers Charge, Only the Dragon slayer and the Ironguts are in B2B, So all attacks do have to go against the Dragon slayer, Normal (GW) and Stomp as they all have the ASL rule. Slayers Loss combat on static resolution and are unbreakable. The Next round all these attacks would go into the Giant Slayer. Again Slayers Loss combat on static resolution and are unbreakable. The finally you could kill off the Troll Slayers. Had there been a character or two in the Ironguts unit this could all change. As INitiative would take over and for instance, a Firebelly could kill the Dragon slayer, a Bruiser could kill the Dragon Slayer, then the Iron guts and Stomps could be applied to the Troll slayers. But as we do not know what was in the Irongut unit I can only Speculate.

If Ogres had Charge to get Impact hits. The Below would apply, Adding in any Character Initative in between. first round of Combat.

Ogres Charge, Kill Dragon Slayer with Impacts. only model in B2b Less than 5 Rank and file. Then Kill Giant Slayer with normal Initative attacks. Then Stomps are applied to Troll Slayers, 1-2 more dead.

Ironguts Charge, Kill Dragon Slayer with Impact hits, again only model in B2B Less than 5 Rank and file. All Normal attacks and Stomps would now be applied the the Giant slayer, and Troll Slayers could not be attacked.

cawizkid wrote:
I know there are different types, but they are all still Slayers, call them what you like.

I was clarifying that for someone else.

cawizkid wrote:
Distributed as shooting for Impact hits means you cannot apply all the attacks to one character model if there are more than 5 rank and file models in the unit. If there are less you can put them on whoever you wan as long as it is in B2B...

...If you have read the example given, you will see that it was 5 Models in the Unit and a couple of different types, Thus there were not 5 rank and file models in this unit. So has the Ogres charged all impact hits would indeed go to the first X Slayer model in combat.

I did read the example given. Let's not throw around petty accusations.

P.93 under CHAMPIONS AND SHOOTING: "A champion cannot normally be targeted by enemy shooting attacks--he can only be removed as a casualty if there are no other rank-and-file members of his unit left."

P.99, under SHOOTING: "'Normal' shooting attacks...cannot hit a character in a combined unit if there are five or more rank and file models of the same troop type...If there are fewer than five rank-and-file models left in the unit...the controlling player decides who is hit, but must allocate one hit on each model before he can add a second hit on a model..."

So, in a unit of 5+ Troll Slayers and 1+ Giant Slayers and 1+ Dragon Slayers, the Dragon Slayer cannot be hit by Impact Hits until there are 5 or less Troll Slayers in the unit, and the Giant Slayer can't be removed until all the Troll Slayers are. The rules don't care one whit about base contact.
So, oddly enough, champions are more resistance to this sort of thing than regular characters are.

Page 42, Resolving Unusual attacks.: .....Inpact hits made by a charging chariot (covered in the special rules Chapter) Such hits are resolved using steps 4 5 6 of the rules for shooting attacks. The only exceptions are hits caused by close combat attacks,. These are discussed in the close combat chapter. (page 46)

Bottom of page 75, finally Impact hits are Close combat attacks... (although of an unusual type)......

Giant Slayers are Unit Champions (FAQ), all others are not. So if he had 2 Giant Slayers and 3 troll slayers. Impact hits casualties would remove the Troll Slayers in the back. As casualties from shooting are pulled from the back rank. Shooting Rules part 6 removing casualty from shooting, only after the rank and file are all dead do you pull the Champ. If he had one of the Character Slayers and less than 5 rank and file, "Giant slayers do not count", Impact hits would apply to him. taken from the Unusual shooting attacks last paragraph page 99, If there are less than 5 rank and file models the character does not get a look out sir! roll and is hit.


Impact hits are both Unusual attacks and Close Combat attacks. Per the BRB

Impact Hits don't ever grant a Look Out, Sir! roll.

If you had a unit of 5 or less models + characters, then you'd follow the rules on P.99.

Impact Hits are Unusual and Close Combat attacks. That are allocated as Shooting attacks. Per the BRB.

Thanks for the clarification Warp. My point was that if you have a line of Troll Slayers with a Giant Slayer at the front, ou can simply attack the unit. All wounds will count as casualties from RnF, since the giant slayer is just a unit champion.
Therefore it is only Dragon Slayers and Deamon Slayers that need worry you.

Well, as far as regular attacks go: P.93 under CHAMPIONS AND CLOSE COMBAT: "...enemy models in base contact can direct attacks against the champion if they wish...wounds inflicted on the unit can overflow onto the champion, but wounds inflicted on the champion cannot overflow onto the unit."

...so, I guess, since he's a unit upgrade, he still counts as "the unit", so you can be in base contact with him, and attack the regular versions of him?

Niteware wrote:
Thanks for the clarification Warp. My point was that if you have a line of Troll Slayers with a Giant Slayer at the front, ou can simply attack the unit. All wounds will count as casualties from RnF, since the giant slayer is just a unit champion.
Therefore it is only Dragon Slayers and Deamon Slayers that need worry you.

I didn't think you could attack RNA if you are only in base with the champion?

A champion is part of the Unit so you can attack RNF, A Character is not, you can not attack RNF if you are only in combat with Character(s).

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Niteware wrote:
Thanks for the clarification Warp. My point was that if you have a line of Troll Slayers with a Giant Slayer at the front, ou can simply attack the unit. All wounds will count as casualties from RnF, since the giant slayer is just a unit champion.
Therefore it is only Dragon Slayers and Deamon Slayers that need worry you.

I didn't think you could attack RNA if you are only in base with the champion?

The point is that you don't attack rnf or the champion, you attack the unit, unless you choose to declare that attacks are against the champion. Otherwise, any time that a champion was at the end of a line, some models could be forced to attack him.

Ah OK, I thought if model had a different profile you HAD to attack that set of profiles, so an A2 champion in a unit of A1 models could force models to fight him, if they are only in B2B with that model.

Need to check splitting attacks again, when i'm near a rulebook.

*edit* if I am confused about the circumstance, feel free to ignore this. I am only talking about direct melee attacks.

I don't know where people are getting that you can choose to attack the unit instead of the champion if the model is only in B2B with the champion.

pg 48 Who Can Strike?
"Normally, a warrior can only strike blows against an enemy model in base contact."

If you are only in B2B with the Champion, you MUST attack the champion. The Champion rules do not give any exceptions to this. This rule also uses model, not unit.

pg 48 Dividing Attacks
"If a model is touching enemies with different characteristic profiles..."

Well, if you are only in B2B with the Champion, this doesn't apply.

pg 93 Champions and Close Combat
"Note that any extra wounds inflicted upon a champion do not carry over onto the rest of the unit - once the champion is slain, excess wounds are lost."

This reinforces the Champion is a separate entity within the unit.

If the Champion is the only model in the unit in B2B, only the Champion can absorb the attacks, and the wounds do not carry over per pg 93.

You attack models directly who are in B2B, not units.