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Martel732 wrote:
However, FW is super expensive and I see it as putting diesel fuel on a fire.

Martel732 wrote:Both of the groups I've played with have strictly prohibited FW, because of both cost...

You've mentioned cost a couple times. I'm actually going to disagree with this particular part of the argument. Forge World prices are usually ~$10 more than GW or in some cases are actually cheaper. In fact, Forge World used to sell GW plastic kits. Like Land Raiders, Hammerheads etc for their conversion sets. You could buy these independently. After one round of price increases, Forge World's GW products - INCLUDING SHIPPING - were cheaper than GW's own.

Forge World no longer sells GW plastic kits.

Let's compare a handful of units, both GW and FW variants and some FW analogues. Most prices are in Canadian, but I've included some USDs for comparison as well.

GW price for a Wave Serpent (CDN): 53.50 USD: 44.50
FW price for their Wave Serpent: 63.73 (same rules, just variant kit) USD: 61.12

GW price for a Falcon (6-model capacity gunboat): 59.50 USD 49.50
GW price for a Fire Prism (heavy gunboat): 59.50 USD 49.50
FW price for a Firestorm (6-model capacity gunboat with AA): 62.05 USD 59.50
FW price for their Falcon: 63.73 (same rules, variant kit)
FW price for a Warp Hunter (heavy gunboat): 65.40 USD 62.60

GW price for a Land Raider: 89.00 USD: 74.25
FW price for a Land Raider Helios: 86.38 USD: 83.83
FW price for a Land Raider Achilles: 102.27 USD: 98.08

GW price for a Predator: 69.25 USD: 57.75
FW price for their Predator: 67.07 USD: 64.32

GW price for a Whirlwind: 69.25 USD: 57.75
FW price for a Whirlwind: 68.75 USD: 65.94

GW price for a Dark Eldar Ravager: 59.50
FW price for a Dark Eldar Reaper: 67.07

GW Leman Russ: 59.50
FW Ryza-Pattern Leman Russ: 70.43

GW Leman Russ Conqueror: 59.50
FW Conqueror: 60.37

GW Executioner: 59.50
FW Executioner: 60.37
Exterminator, Vanquisher, etc.

So as far as Canada goes (and I believe we've had an Australian comment in one thread or another that FW books about about 1.30 more expensive than Codices for them) FW prices are right in line - in some instances they're even cheaper! - than GW's own. FW units when compared to GW counterparts tend to be about ~$10 more expensive. This is not an insurmountable obstacle to anyone who plays this hobby. When we use USD for prices, FW units again come out about ~10-15 dollars more expensive. I wouldn't call that 'super expensive'. You can either use the GW units which are cheaper, or pay a bit extra for a luxury of a luxury item, or if you want something special, depending on where you live you can save a couple dollars or pay about 15 more. It's not break the bank level of funds.

"What about shipping?" I hear you say. "Won't that throw off all your figures and increase the FW expense?" To which I reply, well then you have two options. Save up yourself or get some friends to go all in for an order sufficiently large enough for free shipping, or accept an extra handful of dollars on the price... which still hardly puts FW into the 'super expensive' camp. If you can afford to buy and play GW games, than Forge World is not so expensive that it will require a second mortgage.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Well every other way has failed and the people who deny really use ANY excuse to prevent it from being used. So at this point it's one of the few that's working.

Well, I'd point out that this isn't working well either from the responses we've read. Now, there could numerous people reading this and not responding who we have no way of determining if this thread affected their views. The people who dislike FW will continue to do so, and those who enjoy FW already believe what this thread is pointing out.

The best way is to go into your stores and clubs with the models and books in hand, and offer to play a few games with a small selection of their units. Offer to let people play your army with FW. If you happen to own any FW models for an army someone else also uses, offer to let them use your model and book for the game to try it out.

The internet will always be a place of one side against the other, but the reality of it is that many gamers don't actively participate in the forums or read many online articles/blogs. The key to accepting FW is through demistifying it and slowly introducing it into your gaming circle.

There's always a chance you have a group who just flat out refuses FW. Not much you could do there, but that's life. Can't force people to play your way, the same people can't force you to play theirs. Two-lane road and all that.

I don't know, I enjoy what FW produces; probably the only thing keeping me in 40k to be honest. But I'm not as heated about it as others. I also don't live anywhere near anyone who has even heard of table top wargaming, so I don't have any real experience lately with people opposing FW. My old club was totally down with it.

 juraigamer wrote:
Go ahead and buy your forgeworld models. If you're being a dick about it, you don't get a game from me or anything in my FLGS. Enjoy. Forgeworld stuffs for fluff and fun is all good, but sadly most "needs forgeworld" players fall into the category of powergaming douche-bags.

The last three Xenos codexes are far more vulnerable to abuse by "powergaming douchebags" (especially allied together) than anything Forgeworld produces.

We hear stories of people refusing to play against them.

Martel732 wrote:
The only way FW is going to be accepted in my area is if their prices come down. Most of the reasons I've heard for why people won't accept FW is because of price and poor balancing.

QFT

if FW would just BALANCE things out, and not favor the IOM armies so much, and if the entry cost to get the books/models you want wasnt 500+$....

its basically pay to win, for certain armies like IG with all the rediculous artillary in FW, but yes it is 40k "legal"


fun games?
sure
competitive tournaments meant to assess skill, and not who has the most $ to buy all the best forgeworld models
why? what is the point? everyone will be playing IG with artillary + allies then... or be at a HUGE disadvantage.

all FW has to do is tone down, or properly cost some of the OP/undercosted stuff, or at least give EVERY army something uber good worth taking,

but no, IOM gets everything, my IG are not fun to play anymore when I take FW artillary as I feel like I get such an advantage with those units, I literally feel like I have an extra 300-500 pts when I play my "douche FW IG" list that just spams the best undercosted FW units...

im sure its even less fun for people to play me with that army...

all the standard codex spam is fine, easy to deal with with proper tactics/listbuilding, and doesnt make me feel like there is a huge gap in points between us.

Id rather deal with 5 riptides then forgeworld in the current state its in... riptides may rock, but they are costed/balanced way better then FW artillary for the IOM

I know you jumped ship on me here, but I'm still replying anyways as I feel there are things to address.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:The thing I've been saying is we have the head of the design studio blessing off on FW, and even writing their first three books. That basically kills any arguements about "officialness".

Seriously, I feel like people are only reading half my posts. I am not debating "officialness".

Welcome to my world. I never claimed you were arguing officialness, I was stating the reason I brought that picture up was to counteract those who do.

 Lynata wrote:
You're sounding more and more like Peregrine in this attempt to sweep uncomfortable details under the rug in favour of sweeping statements falsifying the actual wording.

Says the person who is trying to add words like "standard" to described 40k.

I'm not trying to sweep anything anywhere and even mentioned the VDR thing when I posted the picture. I was refering to the point of Jervis' message, not the wording. There is a difference between the two. And accusing people of lying doesn't make you have any moral high ground, it just rings of you trying to attack the person not what they're trying to say.

 Lynata wrote:
What we actually have is the head of the design studio having in the past blessed off FW content as long as said content is created using specific GW studio rules (which, on a sidenote, are also no longer in effect). This is redundant information, since said GW studio rules were by themselves already blessing off anything created with them, and because the rules that are actually part of the current debate have nothing to do with VDR. The vehicles could have been published by Disney or Wallmart and it'd be the same.

You're looking at the exact wording, I'm actually reffering to the message that is in that statement: that FW was being approved for regular play and the studio was supporting it. It doesn't matter what restrictions were in place or how it happened, but the fact that it did happen was important.

 Lynata wrote:
What we do not have is, contrary to how you make it sound like, the head of the design studio blessing off actual original FW rules, which are the subject of this debate.

Actually what we do not have is any member of the studio ever saying FW wasn't meant for use in the game, despite the naysayers. Even under specific restrictions we've had support for FW, but we've never had the inverse.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:You're right, VDR where Jervis' rules. Guess what else where Jervis' rules? The first three IA books that were released.

... so?
One man is not the studio.

No, but he was and is the head of the main design studio (as you mentioned only a few lines ago). His involvement and writer's credit for those books makes a rather strong argument for GW's involvement as well as how valid the studio sees them being.

 Lynata wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:108 proves that argument flawed as you've already agreed. You know as well that EVERYTHING adds to the game. Codexes add to the core rules for instance.

The difference is that the codices are SINGLED OUT by the core book to be the ONE suggestion and the DEFAULT approach, and that EVERYTHING ELSE is a modification and thus NON-STANDARD.

I can caps, too.

There you go adding words to the game that don't exist. Codexes are never said to be a default, nor are they ever attributed as the only choice, just the easiest choice. Also I don't know any part of the rules that say that adapted codexes or homebrew are "non-standard" as there isn't a place that says that there is a set standard. You're accusing people of reading things "incorrectly" but keep doing it when it comes to the core rules of the game.

As I said, the core rules of the game are "standard". They're the rules you play when you play 40k. As long as you don't need to defer to another book for how to play the game itself (say Cities of Death, or Battle Missions) then you're playing "standard" 40k. The only things that FW brings to the table that break this standard are the Heresy Game (sold with the express point of stating that it's not meant for playing 40k with, and is basically a separate system that uses the 40k rules), Apoc (we have a game for that) and campaigns (alternate missions like the Altar of War books). Everything else uses the core rules and thus meets a definition of "standard". 108 contains a rule that says in a game of 40,000 you can play the army list out of a codex as is, adapt that army list or bring your own army list that you made. These are rules in the core rulebook of the game making them "standard" methods of play.

You can argue that you don't want to play them for a number of reasons, but arguing that they don't fall into some "standard" method of play that is written expressly to exclude them is frankly a dick move that is only being done to draw lines in the sand and then claim that it's the designer's intent.

 Eldarain wrote:

The last three Xenos codexes are far more vulnerable to abuse by "powergaming douchebags" (especially allied together) than anything Forgeworld produces.

You mean the one quad riptide netlist? That daemon prince/dogs/screamers netlist? Those eldar/tau or tau/eldar combo lists?

Lets be fair, those are simply the only thing people complain about. Normal tau/daemon/eldar players don't get flak. Besides, the only reason they are winning is everyone is busy running elite armies, and they are good at killing elite armies.

Also, don't forget the FAQ's have been lacking. The daemons thing comes from the grimore, which can be easily changed to max invul of a 3+. The moment people start running lots of stuff rather than few things, the riptide/wraith problem vanishes.

But forgeworld isn't the same. Forgeworld has good models, decent rules, but the issue comes from the fact there is no codex and X forgeworld model testing when the codex is created. FW stuffs have variant power, not equal to points and/or army allowance. If the problematic FW units that people take for powergaming purposes were changed to be in league with everything else, you can then run forgeworld all day. Until then, keep believing it's fair.

 easysauce wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The only way FW is going to be accepted in my area is if their prices come down. Most of the reasons I've heard for why people won't accept FW is because of price and poor balancing.

QFT

Yes, because the prices that are fairly close to GW's are so out of reach that no one can possibly afford it. Oh wait.

 easysauce wrote:
if FW would just BALANCE things out, and not favor the IOM armies so much, and if the entry cost to get the books/models you want wasnt 500+$....

So basically if FW wasn't like GW then.

 easysauce wrote:
its basically pay to win, for certain armies like IG with all the rediculous artillary in FW, but yes it is 40k "legal"

Quaddrakes, Triptides and Screamerstars say "hi". There is plenty of "pay to win" in every game. Pretending that FW is the only possible source of this is silly.

And the artillery is only silly because of GW's core rules making them that way.

 easysauce wrote:
fun games?
sure
competitive tournaments meant to assess skill, and not who has the most $ to buy all the best forgeworld models

What's the point in doing this with 40k period? The game isn't written to be "competitive" or "test skill" it's written to be fun, cinematic and generally more casual than games you can play on your cellphone. You want a real test of skill write of a list (say Space Marines) and make a tournament around everyone running that. That's where you'll prove who is more "skillful" in the game.

 easysauce wrote:
why? what is the point? everyone will be playing IG with artillary + allies then... or be at a HUGE disadvantage.

I have the same problem with tournaments as a whole. As they stand they don't really prove diddly.

 easysauce wrote:
all FW has to do is tone down, or properly cost some of the OP/undercosted stuff, or at least give EVERY army something uber good worth taking,

I've yet to see a truely solid list on what constitutes what FW makes that is really "OP" that doesn't have the problem of being the main studio's fault. I mean Orks can bring Big Guns which are just as exploitive of the artillery rules as any of FW's IG guns but we all ignore those.....why the double standard on that one example that isn't even FW's fault?

 easysauce wrote:
but no, IOM gets everything, my IG are not fun to play anymore when I take FW artillary as I feel like I get such an advantage with those units, I literally feel like I have an extra 300-500 pts when I play my "douche FW IG" list that just spams the best undercosted FW units...

14 codexes, and what, 6 of them aren't IOM? I doubt FW is really the ones at fault for this.

And if you're dealing with douche players that's not FW's fault. That's the players fault for being a douche, and your's for not addressing it or refusing to place said douche.

 easysauce wrote:
im sure its even less fun for people to play me with that army...

Douche players enjoy being douches, so I'd say "no". But that applies to any list they can play using the least amount of possible creativity or skill.

 easysauce wrote:
all the standard codex spam is fine, easy to deal with with proper tactics/listbuilding, and doesnt make me feel like there is a huge gap in points between us.

Nice double standard there. "It's fine if someone is a douche with the regular stuff, but that other stuff is just too far!". Players who are douches shouldn't be supported regardless what they play with.

 easysauce wrote:
Id rather deal with 5 riptides then forgeworld in the current state its in... riptides may rock, but they are costed/balanced way better then FW artillary for the IOM

Your argument makes no sense. It's okay for people to be a douche in general, but they spend a few bucks extra to play Krieg and suddenly that's too far? I'm glad I'll never have to play against you because you've got a bad attitude about this game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 juraigamer wrote:
But forgeworld isn't the same. Forgeworld has good models, decent rules, but the issue comes from the fact there is no codex and X forgeworld model testing when the codex is created. FW stuffs have variant power, not equal to points and/or army allowance. If the problematic FW units that people take for powergaming purposes were changed to be in league with everything else, you can then run forgeworld all day. Until then, keep believing it's fair.

FW does test rules, sometimes even publicly (experimental rules). They even have rules that get veto'd by the main studio and have to be adjusted to bring them into line with the game.

The problem with the community is that we have people who will take things for the sake of power gaming and that we have others drawing the line not at those players who do that, but at FW who isn't responsible for people being dicks.

Don't hate FW because people can be donkey-caves. Hate the donkey-caves for being donkey-caves.

 juraigamer wrote:

 Eldarain wrote:

The last three Xenos codexes are far more vulnerable to abuse by "powergaming douchebags" (especially allied together) than anything Forgeworld produces.

You mean the one quad riptide netlist? That daemon prince/dogs/screamers netlist? Those eldar/tau or tau/eldar combo lists?

Lets be fair, those are simply the only thing people complain about. Normal tau/daemon/eldar players don't get flak.

And how the hell is that not different to most people running FW stuff?

But forgeworld isn't the same. Forgeworld has good models, decent rules, but the issue comes from the fact there is no codex and X forgeworld model testing when the codex is created.

You're implying that GW does major playtesting and that the game is designed and intended with balanced and competitive play in mind, and that the fluff based allies rules don't already make a mockery of such things.

None of the above are true, partly by the Design Studio's open admission at their open day event last year.

FW stuffs have variant power, not equal to points and/or army allowance. If the problematic FW units that people take for powergaming purposes were changed to be in league with everything else, you can then run forgeworld all day. Until then, keep believing it's fair.

So...how does this also not apply exactly to Codex stuff that's also broken?

We've got an arbitrary double-standard here.

 davou wrote:
It absolutely sucks, but the ONLY thing that will ever 'end' this debate, is a statement saying forgeworld is prefectly valid, directly in the core rulebook, or its FAQ. The 'officialness' comes from the way GW operates to outside observers, There seems to be little interplay between the core materials team, and the forgeworld dudes.

Well its not like it bothers anyone at our FLGS, right?

I don't think half these arguments against FW are very valid.

Pricing. Look at poor eldar. Bring 3 wraithknights and serpent spam. That is not going to be a cheap army. Wrath knight is over 100USD and a 60USD blight drone is too expensive?

GW will release models and rules that are super awesome/broken/cheating/whatever. Look at the top lists in tournaments, you will see the "op" units there. All sorts of FW stuff will look great on paper, but if it was as amazingly powerful as everyone thinks it is, EVERY competitive player and half the casual players would fork out $20 more (not much) for the super instant win button.

An annihilation barge has scary awesome firepower and is under 100pt. A wave serpent is right there with it, but this one is a transport too. When did transports become more dangerous than heavy tanks? FW didn't do that.

right, when GW says a str9 ap3 large blast template, on a fragile av 12 vehicle costs 125pts,
but forgeworld puts that same weapon, on a MUCH more durable artilary unit, that also does a LOT more damage due to being orderable, it only makes sense to charge 75 pts for that unit right?

right? thats "fair" and balanced, no one is shelling out 60+pounds per artillary are they?


the standard dex stuff actually IS costed and balanced, people who complaing about riptides/helldrakes/wraithknights just do not know how to counter them, they are costed FAIRLY or clost to it for what they do.

copare that to the above, one example of MANY, where compared to the baseline GW model, the performance goes up significantly, while the points cost goes down even more so. with absolutely no justification.

Events like NOVA, 11th Co, BFS, AdeptiCon are going without it for their GT's

the reason you dont see top finishers at all the big tournies like nova ect.... is not because they are not uber op units... its because they are NOT ALLOWED... with good reason, they are not balanced for comp play,

stop saying "deeep but riptides helldraks wraithknights"

who cares about those? they are costed fairly for what they do, they are powerful, competitive, and balanced.

FW literally takes units, makes them cost less points, gives them upgrades, and the FW crowd goes "looks fair to me!"

is all FW like that? nope, but enough of it is, and disproportionatly so in IOM's favor

here are the very valid reasons why nova doesnt allow FW at the GT

With regard to NOVA, it was a fairly large internal discussion with a lot of back and forth ... here's what pushed us to having FW be in the Trios and Narrative, but not the GT or Invitational:

1. Evidence came out over the year from UK testers that was fairly definitive as to the subject of playtesting - FW isn't playtested, or even involved in the balancing/playtesting process (such as / whatever it is).
1a. The game is increasingly balanced for all levels of play, with each new updated codex ... lending more credence to NOT including (in the more competitive formats of the GT and Invitational) non-tested/balanced rules.

2. None of us could remember ever really playing pick-up games at local game stores, social game nights, or local GW's where anyone - especially casual players - was even routinely aware of FW, much less interested in playing with FW rules. The push to use them was coming almost exclusively [at least on our radar] from more tournament-savvy people (though not exclusively from competitive minded people).

3. MOST gamers, even those who advocated FW heavily, weren't even aware of the existence of half or more of the units they wanted to legalize. As a result, many of the arguments about balance fixated on Sabres, Boarding Flyers (w/e their name is, I always forget), etc., and they consistently wound up stammering when faced with units like Quad Guns, or the (can't remember his name) Shrouding/Disordered + Nullzone/Divination 160 point libby, etc.

4. Arguments about "balancing" flyer-heavy armies were rendered somewhat pointless by the broad lack of consistent tournament-wining success by flyer-heavy armies.

"the standard dex stuff actually IS costed and balanced, people who complaing about riptides/helldrakes/wraithknights just do not know how to counter them, they are costed FAIRLY or clost to it for what they do. "

Demonstrably untrue. Exhibit A: Wave Serpent.

serpants are balanced, you just dont know how to deal with them... i have played a huge amount of serpant spam, with 0 issues.

its call krak grenades or shooting that ignores cover, try it.

heck because they use their sheilds as weapons everytime, my lascannons, that dont ignore cover, from my IG army, burns through serpant spam easily...

what is your response to FW artillary, that has comparable units in normal dexes, yet is MORE powerful, MORE durable, but 40% less points?

 easysauce wrote:
serpants are balanced, you just dont know how to deal with them... i have played a huge amount of serpant spam, with 0 issues.

its call krak grenades or shooting that ignores cover, try it.

heck because they use their sheilds as weapons everytime, my lascannons, that dont ignore cover, from my IG army, burns through serpant spam easily...

what is your response to FW artillary, that has comparable units in normal dexes, yet is MORE powerful, MORE durable, but 40% less points?

Not to derail the subject but, just because you can deal with something with your army, or even some armies, if you build directly to counter it does not mean that it isn't game breaking. Some armies do not have answers anywhere in their codex for WS spam. Some do. That isn't game balanced, that is poor rules in a game that we all accept to have poor rules.

On topic, I think the biggest reason my gaming group doesn't allow FW is that the rules are not as readily available to players as say, the codices are. Most people are exposed to the armies of this game at least once in awhile so they have some experience against them or can take a look at a store copy of a codex.

Using a single FW unit in a game with the book? Alright, not SO bad but still...it may have been FAQed. Using an entire FW army? I am not going to read through your entire codex and it;s FAQs to make sure you aren't trying to cheat me. Sorry, that is what it really boils down to. I don't trust people enough to take their word at what their codex does. I know I can call BS on somethings, but if someone slips in a little change that is believable, like a S5 weapon being S6 or something like that? Chances are I wont call them on it and I again, don't want to read an entire codex to make sure you aren't cheating me.

krak grenades and str 7+ shooting is hardly a rare counter to serpent spam...

every army has them, or similar things, and a real TAC list has ways to deal with av 12-14, even if that armor gets a cover save... my 150pt lemen russ in a ruin is "broken" too then cause who can possibly deal with av14 with a 4+ cover save?

again, much less game breaking the FW units like artillary...

if FW took the serpant, reduced its points by 40%, and made it into a t7 monster with 3 wounds instead of a vehicle, and upped the fire power a bit,
thats where we are with FW artillary right now.
as it is serpants are NOT broken, they are just NEW and people are not used to them.

Had a game last night against an anti forge world player, he said "are you useing that crazy fw rules bs"
To which I replied
"you mean to say, "do I have anything that can compete with 3 riptides you have there", in which can no I'm not"

He quit when I fired my medusa at him commander that was sitting (to me) in a broadside unit, he tells me that the commander wasn't part of the broadside unit, so I say I'm going to re do the shot as (within 3") it looked like it was, first shot was a hit by the way, he rages about how op forge world lists are blah blah and quits, didn't even get to resolve the shot.
Told him to grow up and learn the rules

 gwarsh41 wrote:
I don't think half these arguments against FW are very valid.

Pricing. Look at poor eldar. Bring 3 wraithknights and serpent spam. That is not going to be a cheap army. Wrath knight is over 100USD and a 60USD blight drone is too expensive?

Hell, even worse, it's cheaper to buy DKoK infantry than it is to buy Dire Avengers

 easysauce wrote:
right, when GW says a str9 ap3 large blast template, on a fragile av 12 vehicle costs 125pts,
but forgeworld puts that same weapon, on a MUCH more durable artilary unit, that also does a LOT more damage due to being orderable, it only makes sense to charge 75 pts for that unit right?

It's only more durable if you're trying to shoot it to death from across the table. It's immobile, Ld7 (hooray fallback tests and psychic attacks) and is nothing but a handful of T3 5+sv Ld7 A1 dudes in an assault. Psychic powers, morale tests, and CC utterly wreck this unit and it cannot move to avoid any of them.

As you were mentioned against the Heldrakes and whatnot, you're don't know how to fight it.

the standard dex stuff actually IS costed and balanced

In what universe and who's say-so?

 easysauce wrote:
krak grenades and str 7+ shooting is hardly a rare counter to serpent spam...

again, much less game breaking the FW units like artillary...

if FW took the serpant, reduced its points by 40%, and made it into a t7 monster with 3 wounds instead of a vehicle, and upped the fire power a bit,
thats where we are with FW artillary right now.
as it is serpants are NOT broken, they are just NEW and people are not used to them.

I disagree. The Wave Serpent and Vendetta are just as bad as the broken FW stuff. Lists tailored for wave serpents don't count as "dealing with them". Build a list for an unknown opponent then come talk to me about Wave Serpents.

GW stuff is actually playtested, and goes through a balanceing process, had you actually read my above post you would find

1. Evidence came out over the year from UK testers that was fairly definitive as to the subject of playtesting - FW isn't playtested, or even involved in the balancing/playtesting process (such as / whatever it is).
1a. The game is increasingly balanced for all levels of play, with each new updated codex ... lending more credence to NOT including (in the more competitive formats of the GT and Invitational) non-tested/balanced rules.

having krak greneades, or str 7+ shooting is not list tailoring,

Martel732 wrote:

I disagree. The Wave Serpent and Vendetta are just as bad as the broken FW stuff. Lists tailored for wave serpents don't count as "dealing with them". Build a list for an unknown opponent then come talk to me about Wave Serpents.

I am specifically talking about tounament lists I have been playing against that have serpant spam... I am not "tailoring"; to beat serpant spam with my tourny list, and I have no clue who I face in those games... stop saying I am, because you are just arguing with yourself at that point, or just deluding yourself as to what I am actually saying here...

so hows that for your "come talk to me when you are not tailoring"

WTF man, im talking about a tac list I had, not tailoring... get it right instead accuse me of tailoring to win, because I have KRAK GRENADES?!?!? that is the only thing I had to kill them besides DK's and coteaz... thats not tailoring, thats USING WHAT IS ALREADY AVAIABLE

stop pretending that krak grenades, and literally any str7+ shooting weapon is some rare thing that no one takes....

 easysauce wrote:
GW stuff is actually playtested, and goes through a balanceing process, had you actually read my above post you would find

1. Evidence came out over the year from UK testers that was fairly definitive as to the subject of playtesting - FW isn't playtested, or even involved in the balancing/playtesting process (such as / whatever it is).
1a. The game is increasingly balanced for all levels of play, with each new updated codex ... lending more credence to NOT including (in the more competitive formats of the GT and Invitational) non-tested/balanced rules.

As previously mentioned FW is play tested too (by the FW team, just like GW's main studio conducts their own play testing), they even do open play testing with their experimental rules AND the main studio has a say on if something needs to be adjusted before they print it. Your argument is full of more holes than the Titanic.

 easysauce wrote:
krak grenades and str 7+ shooting is hardly a rare counter to serpent spam...

every army has them, or similar things, ...

Yeah, I take krak grenades on all of my gaunts...

 insaniak wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
krak grenades and str 7+ shooting is hardly a rare counter to serpent spam...

every army has them, or similar things, ...

Yeah, I take krak grenades on all of my gaunts...

And my Sisters have plenty of autocannons.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
krak grenades and str 7+ shooting is hardly a rare counter to serpent spam...

every army has them, or similar things, ...

Yeah, I take krak grenades on all of my gaunts...

And my Sisters have plenty of autocannons.

And my CSM will easily be able to get up close to a Wave Serpent to hit it with grenades! Those legs will carry them to victory against those grav vehicles.

 Vaktathi wrote:


, Ld7 (hooray fallback tests and psychic attacks)

Now as much as I like FW, if you play the Death Korps, you don't have to take LD tests ever, so charging is one of the option, pinning works, and the noise marine are the bane of my big guns.

I know right? So much S7 shooting and krak grenades for nids. Also my SoB who, while having Exorcist which will be the primary target for the Eldar player and do not ignore cover, have such great ways to deal with AV 12 SKIMMERS that can out shoot the entire army. My Chaos Daemons do so great considering, as we all know, people ONLY play Screamstar or FMC spam which are obviously the only two list you can play in the codex. My CSM can do decently against Serpent spam, I'll grant you that...except I have probably two or three things that can deal with Wave Serpents which means I might kill a couple of them but the Eldar player has to spend so few points fielding those things they still have plenty left for me to go through. My Eldar can counter with MOAR WAVE SERPENTS but I don't think that is much fun. I like my psychology list with Vauls Support Batteries, Night Spinners, and Hemlocks.

No one, or no one SHOULD be saying, is saying that WS spam is unbeatable, the point is if you want to play a TAC list chances are you can't beat WS spam.

I don't understand how people freely state that 40k is unbalanced, rules take a back seat to sales, but then when you agree with them and point out specifics everyone gets all up in arms about it when THEIR army is the one that is dominating. This game IS unbalanced, it IS broken, but we play it despite that, so why deny it when people tell it like it is?

 easysauce wrote:
GW stuff is actually playtested, and goes through a balanceing process, had you actually read my above post you would find

1. Evidence came out over the year from UK testers that was fairly definitive as to the subject of playtesting - FW isn't playtested, or even involved in the balancing/playtesting process (such as / whatever it is).
1a. The game is increasingly balanced for all levels of play, with each new updated codex ... lending more credence to NOT including (in the more competitive formats of the GT and Invitational) non-tested/balanced rules.

having krak greneades, or str 7+ shooting is not list tailoring,

Martel732 wrote:

I disagree. The Wave Serpent and Vendetta are just as bad as the broken FW stuff. Lists tailored for wave serpents don't count as "dealing with them". Build a list for an unknown opponent then come talk to me about Wave Serpents.

I am specifically talking about tounament lists I have been playing against that have serpant spam... I am not "tailoring"; to beat serpant spam with my tourny list, and I have no clue who I face in those games... stop saying I am, because you are just arguing with yourself at that point, or just deluding yourself as to what I am actually saying here...

so hows that for your "come talk to me when you are not tailoring"

WTF man, im talking about a tac list I had, not tailoring... get it right instead accuse me of tailoring to win, because I have KRAK GRENADES?!?!? that is the only thing I had to kill them besides DK's and coteaz... thats not tailoring, thats USING WHAT IS ALREADY AVAIABLE

stop pretending that krak grenades, and literally any str7+ shooting weapon is some rare thing that no one takes....

So are these Wave Serpents driving right up to you without firing and letting you assault them with krak greandes? Because I'm having a hard time understanding how an infantry model with a 6" move catches a fast skimmer that can move 12" and fire two weapons at full BS. It's hard enough to get enough ASM with krak grenades within range *and have enough survivors for it to matter". Have you done the math on how many S7 shots it takes to bring down a Wave Serpent? It's borderline nuts. These are not solutions. The Wave Serpent is absolutely broken for its points *when used correctly*.

"No one, or no one SHOULD be saying, is saying that WS spam is unbeatable, the point is if you want to play a TAC list chances are you can't beat WS spam. "

Pretty much this. Broken is winning 70% - 80% of games against very good players who know what they are doing. Not unbeatable. Broken is invalidating huge swaths of the meta by just existing.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 davou wrote:
It absolutely sucks, but the ONLY thing that will ever 'end' this debate, is a statement saying forgeworld is prefectly valid, directly in the core rulebook, or its FAQ. The 'officialness' comes from the way GW operates to outside observers, There seems to be little interplay between the core materials team, and the forgeworld dudes.

Well its not like it bothers anyone at our FLGS, right?

Not even a bit, but It may once I get you all trained up in tournament style

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 easysauce wrote:
krak grenades and str 7+ shooting is hardly a rare counter to serpent spam...

every army has them, or similar things, ...

Yeah, I take krak grenades on all of my gaunts...

And my Sisters have plenty of autocannons.

Loyalist marines have a decided lack of autocannons as well. At least compared to CSM or Guard.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:

, Ld7 (hooray fallback tests and psychic attacks)

Now as much as I like FW, if you play the Death Korps, you don't have to take LD tests ever, so charging is one of the option, pinning works, and the noise marine are the bane of my big guns.

To be fair to FW, Krieg was made Fearless when it had more of a drawback, unlike now.

You know what else works on those guns? Focus fire. The guns themselves can't go to ground so can never have a 2+ cover save (hi Aegis!), and by focusing fire models the models with the nice cover save can't take the wounds.

To make it work, shoot at the unit twice. First with weaker weapons (frag, bolters, cow launchers), and then when the unit goes to ground unload with the stuff that has AP3 or better, or is at least S7 or both.

This doesn't work on Krieg, but Krieg can't go to ground anyways.