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'lo thar

I have been a fan of tzeentch and all his beautiful blue babies for a while now, none more so than the thousand sons.
As much as a love them, although I think that they're a great idea for a unit they lack direction.
They seem to be, at first, made to go in and belt the crap out MEQs with AP3 rapid fire guns, but then have been given an invuln save that implies that they are meant to stay and soak up fire, holding objectives from marines instead.

Unfortunately what they have ended up as is as a unit that isn't good enough to run out at marines, as they will get shot to death by small arms the exact same as a regular marine, and not good enough range or invuln save to hold objectives.

What i suggest is that since all the other "legion" units have the other bases covered, with Berzerkers being THE CC, noise marines belting the crap out of guardsmen and whatever other infantry is unlucky enough to get caught in the way and plague marines being great at tarpitting, why not have the sons as the objective holders?

To do this I would give them the sigil of corruption instead of aura of dark glory, giving them a 3++ save and then make their weapons 1/2 salvo weaps.

This would give them the edge at holding objectives, making them very difficult to unwedge, which let's face it, they deserve considering the points they cost.

Maybe a 1-2 pt increase would be needed, but i'm not too sure.

any opinions and changes welcome

the tallest giraffe.

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:
'lo thar

I have been a fan of tzeentch and all his beautiful blue babies for a while now, none more so than the thousand sons.
As much as a love them, although I think that they're a great idea for a unit they lack direction.
They seem to be, at first, made to go in and belt the crap out MEQs with AP3 rapid fire guns, but then have been given an invuln save that implies that they are meant to stay and soak up fire, holding objectives from marines instead.

Unfortunately what they have ended up as is as a unit that isn't good enough to run out at marines, as they will get shot to death by small arms the exact same as a regular marine, and not good enough range or invuln save to hold objectives.

What i suggest is that since all the other "legion" units have the other bases covered, with Berzerkers being THE CC, noise marines belting the crap out of guardsmen and whatever other infantry is unlucky enough to get caught in the way and plague marines being great at tarpitting, why not have the sons as the objective holders?

To do this I would give them the sigil of corruption instead of aura of dark glory, giving them a 3++ save and then make their weapons 1/2 salvo weaps.

This would give them the edge at holding objectives, making them very difficult to unwedge, which let's face it, they deserve considering the points they cost.

Maybe a 1-2 pt increase would be needed, but i'm not too sure.

any opinions and changes welcome

the tallest giraffe.

Giving them a 3++ would still result in them dying at exactly the same rate as a normal marine from bolter fire.

Giving them two wounds, or ignoring st4 or less shooting would make them more durable for objective holding. I'd leave the guns alone - I hate the salvo rule, so I'll freely admit I'm biased

Giving them a 3++ would still result in them dying at exactly the same rate as a normal marine from bolter fire.

Giving them two wounds, or ignoring st4 or less shooting would make them more durable for objective holding. I'd leave the guns alone - I hate the salvo rule, so I'll freely admit I'm biased

Sure, but what i mean is that they are more resilient to things like demolisher shots and since they are holding a position any marines trying to get close wont get more than a few shots before being swiss cheesed, so that it will be less of a problem.

Sounds interesting.

I quite like it, though you'd have to place them carefully in order to avoid the obvious bolter spam (which isn't particularly common from what I've seen).

The 2 wounds per model may require some extra pointage, but this could be a good way to have a more competitive TSons force

What about giving them the demon special rule instead?

That'd improve the invulnerable armour save and they could be grimoired too...

what other ramifications would there be of adding that one?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 thetallestgiraffe wrote:

Giving them a 3++ would still result in them dying at exactly the same rate as a normal marine from bolter fire.

Giving them two wounds, or ignoring st4 or less shooting would make them more durable for objective holding. I'd leave the guns alone - I hate the salvo rule, so I'll freely admit I'm biased

Sure, but what i mean is that they are more resilient to things like demolisher shots and since they are holding a position any marines trying to get close wont get more than a few shots before being swiss cheesed, so that it will be less of a problem.

They're already very resilient to demolisher shots (compared to normal squads) - I'd welcome a demolisher shooting them - it'd probably only kill half the squad and that'd save other squads dying completely

I propose the following:

Rubric Marines

Same statline as in the codex.

Wargear:
Power Armour, Force Weapon (Asp.Sorc. only), Aura of Dark Glory, Doomcast Bolter (TS only) [Range: 24", Str 5, Ap 3, Assault 3], Doomcast Pistol (Asp.Sorc. only) [Range: 12", Str 5, Ap 3, Assault 2]

Special Rules:
Champion of Chaos (Asp.Sorc. only), Fearless, Daemon of Tzeentch, Psyker ML1 (Asp.Sorc. only), Slow and Purposeful, VotLW,
Twist of Fate [Their Inv saves are boosted to 4++]


Unit Cost: 180 pts.

Upgrades:
-May take up to an additional 15 TS for [27 pts] each.
-The Aspiring Sorceror may become Mastery Level 2 [20 pts]
-The Aspiring Sorceror may take a Gift of Mutation [10 pts]
-The Aspiring Sorceror may take Melta Bombs [5 pts]
-One model in the unit may take an Icon of Flame [10 pts]
-The unit may take a Rhino as a Dedicated Transport

 Selym wrote:
I propose the following:

Rubric Marines

Same statline as in the codex.

Wargear:
Power Armour, Force Weapon (Asp.Sorc. only), Aura of Dark Glory, Doomcast Bolter (TS only) [Range: 24", Str 5, Ap 3, Assault 3], Doomcast Pistol (Asp.Sorc. only) [Range: 12", Str 5, Ap 3, Assault 2]

Special Rules:
Champion of Chaos (Asp.Sorc. only), Fearless, Daemon of Tzeentch, Psyker ML1 (Asp.Sorc. only), Slow and Purposeful, VotLW,
Twist of Fate [Their Inv saves are boosted to 4++]


Unit Cost: 180 pts.

Upgrades:
-May take up to an additional 15 TS for [27 pts] each.
-The Aspiring Sorceror may become Mastery Level 2 [20 pts]
-The Aspiring Sorceror may take a Gift of Mutation [10 pts]
-The Aspiring Sorceror may take Melta Bombs [5 pts]
-One model in the unit may take an Icon of Flame [10 pts]
-The unit may take a Rhino as a Dedicated Transport

I do like this but I could imagine Assault 3 AP3 Boltguns at Str 5 being a little overpowering. Assault 2 I could get behind though.

I had my own ideas for cult troops a while back and what I came up with for Thousand Sons was to reduce the strength of all incoming hits by one. Makes them more resilient to small arms fire while also giving them the invuln save to deal with heavier weapons.

These changes don't really address the TS' major drawbacks:

- Can't Overwatch
- Can't Run
- No weapon upgrades
- Sorceror is stuck with the crappy Tzeench powers

Even if you allowed the Sorceror to choose a different discipline it would make them better, seeing as you're stuck with an average shooting attack, a Blessing with a range of 2" and an anti-tank Doombolt which wastes your purely anti-infantry fire from the squad for a whole turn.

I also think the 1ksons should be able to refuse challenges

"No, stay back rubric marines! I will deal with Mephiston!" said no 1ksons sorceror ever.

Dogpiling FTW!

 PredaKhaine wrote:
I also think the 1ksons should be able to refuse challenges

"No, stay back rubric marines! I will deal with Mephiston!" said no 1ksons sorceror ever.

Dogpiling FTW!

Doesn't the Iyanden supplement have a similar thing? Allows wriathguard to be used in a challenge in place of the spiritseer/farseer.

 CaptainJay wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
I also think the 1ksons should be able to refuse challenges

"No, stay back rubric marines! I will deal with Mephiston!" said no 1ksons sorceror ever.

Dogpiling FTW!

Doesn't the Iyanden supplement have a similar thing? Allows wriathguard to be used in a challenge in place of the spiritseer/farseer.

Yes, but I couldn't quote it because I couldn't remember the name of it

I think they should just be able to refuse a challenge and make them fight the rubrics all at once. With only 1 attack each, I don't think it's over the top.

Valkyrie wrote:These changes don't really address the TS' major drawbacks:

- Can't Overwatch
- Can't Run
- No weapon upgrades
- Sorceror is stuck with the crappy Tzeench powers

Even if you allowed the Sorceror to choose a different discipline it would make them better, seeing as you're stuck with an average shooting attack, a Blessing with a range of 2" and an anti-tank Doombolt which wastes your purely anti-infantry fire from the squad for a whole turn.

PredaKhaine wrote:I also think the 1ksons should be able to refuse challenges

"No, stay back rubric marines! I will deal with Mephiston!" said no 1ksons sorceror ever.

Dogpiling FTW!

By this point we're starting to need an entire supplement.

Okay. If somebody could write us a TS profile with these things taken into consideration, it'd be appreciated.

I think sorcerors, warpsmiths and squad leaders should be able to refuse challenges in this way. Sorcerors and Warpsmiths aren't as glory hungry as lords imo and squad leaders don't get to be lords by throwing themselves into combat with the enemies finest warriors all the time.

I also think cultist champions should not have the champion of chaos rule as they are unworthy.

Back to TSons, the weapon options restriction to me is ok as they already have ap3 bolters, but increasing the shots with them could work.

As for the sorceror, allowing him use of the other disciplines would go a long way towards making the unit more usable.

As for the overwatch and running, plenty of other units have this restriction too (Mutilators, Centurions and Obliterators for example) but I guess those units are neither Troops or stuck with only 24" range guns (except Mutilators of course) without the ability to Deep Strike.

Perhaps they can run and overwatch as long as the Sorceror is alive? Kind of a less drastic version of the old Sorceror Commands rule?

These changes don't really address the TS' major drawbacks:

- Can't Overwatch
- Can't Run
- No weapon upgrades
- Sorceror is stuck with the crappy Tzeench powers

1) I agree, it is a MAJOR drawback for them if they are to hold a position without getting horribly tarpitted
2) I never really saw this as much of a problem because, as I say, I want them personally to be used in defence, as the rest of the chaos codex is pretty CC.
3) I think that the upgrade is already in the profile, the AP3 bullets.
4) I agree, most suck, but I don't think that the primaris power is TOTALLY useless, is it? I don't think that it would be right to change this rule however, just as it would be too contradictory, both fluff wise and to how the codex works. (Maybe the option to make him a lvl 2 psyker?)

Perhaps they can run and overwatch as long as the Sorceror is alive? Kind of a less drastic version of the old Sorceror Commands rule?

I think that this would be a great rule, as it makes a lot of sense, due to the Sons being controlled by the psyker, it is kind of weird that they act the same both with and without him.

I think that the salvo rule made sense because if they are as slow and steady as they are described then it would take longer for them to bring their weapons to bear but they would be much more effective when they did.

Wargear:
Power Armour, Force Weapon (Asp.Sorc. only), Aura of Dark Glory, Doomcast Bolter (TS only) [Range: 24", Str 5, Ap 3, Assault 3], Doomcast Pistol (Asp.Sorc. only) [Range: 12", Str 5, Ap 3, Assault 2]

Special Rules:
Champion of Chaos (Asp.Sorc. only), Fearless, Daemon of Tzeentch, Psyker ML1 (Asp.Sorc. only), Slow and Purposeful, VotLW,
Twist of Fate [Their Inv saves are boosted to 4++]

I think that assault 3 is a little over the top though, as the TS are about quality over quantity,which is what the NMs are there for. I could get behind the strength up as well, so long as there was a small points increase. Does the 4++ include the MOT or not?

Given the total lack of effectiveness of the unit, I wouldn´t care about point costs. They are incredibly expensive right now.

Changes I would do:
1) +1 wound.
2) If a Tzeentch sorcerer or aspiring sorcerer is in the unit, do not apply the Slow and Purposeful USR
3) Tzeentch sorcerers / aspiring sorcerers get access to Divination.

2 and 3 are based on the background. The first one is to justify their price, thus making them a viable selection.

rohansoldier wrote:I think sorcerors, warpsmiths and squad leaders should be able to refuse challenges in this way. Sorcerors and Warpsmiths aren't as glory hungry as lords imo and squad leaders don't get to be lords by throwing themselves into combat with the enemies finest warriors all the time.

I also think cultist champions should not have the champion of chaos rule as they are unworthy.

Throwing themselves at important enemies is exactly how most of them advance. Khorne: Killing big/powerful things, Nurgle: infecting big/powerful things, Tzeentch: Eliminating/changing the fate of big/powerful things, Slaanesh: Monster D***s/perfection/thrill

thetallestgiraffe wrote:

Wargear:
Power Armour, Force Weapon (Asp.Sorc. only), Aura of Dark Glory, Doomcast Bolter (TS only) [Range: 24", Str 5, Ap 3, Assault 3], Doomcast Pistol (Asp.Sorc. only) [Range: 12", Str 5, Ap 3, Assault 2]

Special Rules:
Champion of Chaos (Asp.Sorc. only), Fearless, Daemon of Tzeentch, Psyker ML1 (Asp.Sorc. only), Slow and Purposeful, VotLW,
Twist of Fate [Their Inv saves are boosted to 4++]

I think that assault 3 is a little over the top though, as the TS are about quality over quantity,which is what the NMs are there for. I could get behind the strength up as well, so long as there was a small points increase. Does the 4++ include the MOT or not?

I agree, maybe Assault 3 is a little OTT. The 4++ comes about in the codex from all of them having the Aura of Dark Glory (granting a 5++) and the MoT boosting it by 1.
In my draft of an alternative it is the "Twist of Fate" rule that boosts it from ++ to 4++, while the "Daemon of Tzeentch" rule allows them to re-roll any saving throw of 1.

For the mentions of allowing a ML2 sorcerer, I put that in my draft as an upgrade, but it's not in the codex.

Mark of Tzeentch needs critical changes. It needs to make the Sorcerers better, and shouldn't really do anything besides give re-roll failed psychic checks and Aura of Dark Glory all in one.

Rubricae can have the MoTz, but they need their own mechanic that operates independently, like the +1 Wound mentioned above *or* re-rolling failed *armor* save results of "1" in the form of "All is Dust".

Re-rolling only the armor saves represents the tougher armor as a whole and is unlike "Daemon of Tzeentch" in that they cannot re-roll results of 1 for cover saves and AoDG saves.

I really have no idea how GW came up with the Invulnerable Save (+1) mechanic for MoTz.

 Brometheus wrote:
Mark of Tzeentch needs critical changes. It needs to make the Sorcerers better, and shouldn't really do anything besides give re-roll failed psychic checks and Aura of Dark Glory all in one.

Rubricae can have the MoTz, but they need their own mechanic that operates independently, like the +1 Wound mentioned above *or* re-rolling failed *armor* save results of "1" in the form of "All is Dust".

Re-rolling only the armor saves represents the tougher armor as a whole and is unlike "Daemon of Tzeentch" in that they cannot re-roll results of 1 for cover saves and AoDG saves.

I really have no idea how GW came up with the Invulnerable Save (+1) mechanic for MoTz.

In the same way that Ward cannot write a codex for shiz. They don't playtest, they operate by their view of what is "cool".

Don't get me wrong, it's quite "cool" when a unit of Sons takes a direct hit in the open from a doomsday ark and comes out without a scratch.. But I do agree with you there.

This looks relevant O.o

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/506709.page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh. My. Change.

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Codex_-_Thousand_Sons

Honestly I think Thousand Sons' rules are fine for the most part; only changes they need are a big points drop and for the Sorcerer Champion not to be lynched into a crappy Tzeentch power.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Honestly I think Thousand Sons' rules are fine for the most part; only changes they need are a big points drop and for the Sorcerer Champion not to be lynched into a crappy Tzeentch power.

It's not just their cost and the shoe horned psy power, it's that they don't quite fit. The Heldrake and the BBoS does your Ap3, The PM's are the durable ones, Allied Daemons are the Tzeentch psy spam...

Rubrics on paper are designed to advance on a tough gunline, but on the table that get subjected to everything but what they have an Inv save for, and can't move quickly.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Honestly I think Thousand Sons' rules are fine for the most part; only changes they need are a big points drop and for the Sorcerer Champion not to be lynched into a crappy Tzeentch power.

I think it's an OR question right now.

Either you reduce the cost of the sorc greatly, because his powers suck. Bascailly you should only be paying for the power ax and a little more for the chance of nothing.
OR
You let him take any BRB powers and see if that makes them any better.

It could be both, but I think doing both might make them too good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:
Daemon of Tzeentch

Interesting. Just changing them from Mot to DoT would mean they go from 3+/4++ to 3+/5++ rerolling 1s. So they would be worse against demolisher shells but better against small arms(much better against bolters)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

Upgrades:
-May take up to an additional 15 TS for [27 pts] each.
-The Aspiring Sorceror may become Mastery Level 2 [20 pts]
-The Aspiring Sorceror may take a Gift of Mutation [10 pts]
-The Aspiring Sorceror may take Melta Bombs [5 pts]
-One model in the unit may take an Icon of Flame [10 pts]
-The unit may take a Rhino as a Dedicated Transport

I really think they should be able to use heavy bolters(with sorc bolts) and flamers.

1 each for each 10.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Selym wrote:

Special Rules:
Champion of Chaos (Asp.Sorc. only), Fearless, Daemon of Tzeentch, Psyker ML1 (Asp.Sorc. only), Slow and Purposeful, VotLW,
Twist of Fate [Their Inv saves are boosted to 4++]

PE Space Wolves.(sorc only)

More than half the Tson fluff post heresy involves them trying to get revenge on the space wolves. So as long as the flesh and blood sorc is alive the whole unit gains PE space wolves.

 Exergy wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Daemon of Tzeentch

Interesting. Just changing them from Mot to DoT would mean they go from 3+/4++ to 3+/5++ rerolling 1s. So they would be worse against demolisher shells but better against small arms(much better against bolters)

And that is why I gave them the "Twist of Fate" rule. I don't have the time/resources to playtest this, so I'm going off Theory Hammer with this.

 Exergy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Upgrades:
-May take up to an additional 15 TS for [27 pts] each.
-The Aspiring Sorceror may become Mastery Level 2 [20 pts]
-The Aspiring Sorceror may take a Gift of Mutation [10 pts]
-The Aspiring Sorceror may take Melta Bombs [5 pts]
-One model in the unit may take an Icon of Flame [10 pts]
-The unit may take a Rhino as a Dedicated Transport

I really think they should be able to use heavy bolters(with sorc bolts) and flamers.

1 each for each 10.

Interesting... A Heavy Doomcast Bolter... (Sorry, I like the name, I know you mean an Ap3 HB)

 Exergy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Special Rules:
Champion of Chaos (Asp.Sorc. only), Fearless, Daemon of Tzeentch, Psyker ML1 (Asp.Sorc. only), Slow and Purposeful, VotLW,
Twist of Fate [Their Inv saves are boosted to 4++]

PE Space Wolves.(sorc only)

More than half the Tson fluff post heresy involves them trying to get revenge on the space wolves. So as long as the flesh and blood sorc is alive the whole unit gains PE space wolves.

That's interesting and fluffy, but how many times do you face SW?
With VotLW being +1 ppm (IIRC), I'm not sure it's worth it.

 Selym wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

 Selym wrote:
Daemon of Tzeentch

Interesting. Just changing them from Mot to DoT would mean they go from 3+/4++ to 3+/5++ rerolling 1s. So they would be worse against demolisher shells but better against small arms(much better against bolters)

And that is why I gave them the "Twist of Fate" rule. I don't have the time/resources to playtest this, so I'm going off Theory Hammer with this.

 Exergy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Upgrades:
-May take up to an additional 15 TS for [27 pts] each.
-The Aspiring Sorceror may become Mastery Level 2 [20 pts]
-The Aspiring Sorceror may take a Gift of Mutation [10 pts]
-The Aspiring Sorceror may take Melta Bombs [5 pts]
-One model in the unit may take an Icon of Flame [10 pts]
-The unit may take a Rhino as a Dedicated Transport

I really think they should be able to use heavy bolters(with sorc bolts) and flamers.
1 each for each 10.

Interesting... A Heavy Doomcast Bolter... (Sorry, I like the name, I know you mean an Ap3 HB)

 Exergy wrote:

 Selym wrote:

Special Rules:
Champion of Chaos (Asp.Sorc. only), Fearless, Daemon of Tzeentch, Psyker ML1 (Asp.Sorc. only), Slow and Purposeful, VotLW,
Twist of Fate [Their Inv saves are boosted to 4++]

PE Space Wolves.(sorc only)
More than half the Tson fluff post heresy involves them trying to get revenge on the space wolves. So as long as the flesh and blood sorc is alive the whole unit gains PE space wolves.

That's interesting and fluffy, but how many times do you face SW?
With VotLW being +1 ppm (IIRC), I'm not sure it's worth it.

With them having a 5++ or 4++, I like the reroll 1s on all armor saves. Will need to be playtested, but I like the idea.

The heavy bolter would be nice to give them some additional RoF and some additional Range. It also lets them get something(anything) out of slow and purposeful. If they can make sorcerous boltgun shells and sorcerous bolt pistol shells they can make sorcerous heavy bolter shells. As for them being mindless and only capable of firing a bolter, I really have to ask "How much harder(mentally) is it to fire a machinegun than an assault rifle?"

I wouldnt charge them anyting for PE spacewolves. It doesnt make them that much more powerful and it is just a small fluffy twist. Do DA pay anything for PE CSM?

Best to cut the quoting chain before we break the page size :3

If we give them:

-May take one Heavy Doomcast Bolter for [15 pts] (Range: 36", Str 6, Ap 3, Heavy 3)

with:

Doomcast Bolter [Range: 24", Str 5, Ap 3, Assault 2]
Doomcast Pistol [Range: 12", Str 5, Ap3, Assault 1]

and apply the Daemon of Tzeentch/Twist of Fate, we may be getting a competitive unit here

Daemon of Tzeentch/Twist of Fate seems like a mistake to me.
People underestimate the 3++ save. its STRONG. especially in these says where low AP cover ignoring shots are easy enough to get.
Just the gun boosts as written by Selym would be enough to give them the edge over most units, after all assault 2 means they get to shoot twice as much against most bolter carriers at range, and unlike their target, they will also bypass armor.



The easiest fix though, is a price brake.
Currently the sorcerer costs 58(!) points, and the rubrics 23 each. meaning you pay 15 for force weapon (plausible) and 20 for a T psyker power (less so. though it gives hidden bonus in DtW rolls)
Making base rubric cost 21, and the T psyker power 15 would make the base cost of the unit 135, much more
affordable, and not as expensive to grow them up.



Or, we can take another path and fix the T powers.

The Firestorm is good at putting some hurt on hordes, so you can just default to it when facing such. just make it a large blast so it will actually get more then a pair of hits.

Doombolt is NOT anti-tank. it can be used that way, but its better to mow down TeQ with. its a good spell.

Breath, not useable by the mini-sorc, another nice anti-TeQ with random AT value. make it be a 1 WC cost and its fixed.

Then just fix the Boon spell range to 12" so it can actually buff someone other then the caster himself, and you are golden.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Daemon of Tzeentch/Twist of Fate seems like a mistake to me.
People underestimate the 3++ save. its STRONG. especially in these says where low AP cover ignoring shots are easy enough to get.
Just the gun boosts as written by Selym would be enough to give them the edge over most units, after all assault 2 means they get to shoot twice as much against most bolter carriers at range, and unlike their target, they will also bypass armor.

They end up with a 4++, not 3++. My example replaces the Mark with the Daemon rule, not adding to it. The Twist of Fate rule is there to bring back the 4++, since it cannot be obtained by wargear, and it seems that you cannot naturally have both the mark and be daemonic.

Although i get the idea of re-rolling ones to make them more durable against bolter fire, I don't think that it's the way to go with them. The way I see it the CSM codex has pretty much all of its units dedicated to taking the fight to the enemy, chopping up marines like they're made of butter.

However they are really lacking in something that can hold and properly defend an objective, as cultists can't hold a midfield objective when their lives depend on it. I think that thousand sons have potential to be the great objective holder of the codex, fending off meqs and weathering large blast weapons that would total any other unit. I never find that its much of a problem that they die to bolter fire the same, as the way i use them they only ever have a few potshots taken at them by marines gearing up to assault their position or random passers by.

All the changes for their armour and gun stats are all very well and good, but with the weapons that other elites, helldrakes, ect can sport, do the sons really need to go down the same road?

 Selym wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Daemon of Tzeentch/Twist of Fate seems like a mistake to me.
People underestimate the 3++ save. its STRONG. especially in these says where low AP cover ignoring shots are easy enough to get.
Just the gun boosts as written by Selym would be enough to give them the edge over most units, after all assault 2 means they get to shoot twice as much against most bolter carriers at range, and unlike their target, they will also bypass armor.

They end up with a 4++, not 3++. My example replaces the Mark with the Daemon rule, not adding to it. The Twist of Fate rule is there to bring back the 4++, since it cannot be obtained by wargear, and it seems that you cannot naturally have both the mark and be daemonic.

Durped.



thetallestgiraffeMade-Sonic weapon noise marines are pretty damn good at holding objectives.