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GoliothOnline wrote:

1) No, it was not an exageration. DOW (long board sides) is an easy game for Tau especially for first turn. So please, don't call BS if you don't know the army match ups especially if you weren't there to see the hilarity.

2) Riptides are stupid when cuppled with markerlights, people hardly ever do so.

3) Offer productive responses rather than bashing first hand experience behind the board, from both a Tau player, and Tau exterminator.

That is all, good day.

While not entirely impossible, I find this to be highly unlikely, especially if his opponent was a skilled player. This game you witnessed (or maybe played in?) looks more to be the exception rather than the norm. IMO it really isn't indicative of how a triptide/quad-tide list normally plays out. Yes, they are good enough to win consistently. But to table an opponent on Turn 1?!? In order for that to happen, it would probably require a combination of several factors:

1. Good dice for the Tau player. Most likely bad dice by the opponent (i.e. poor saves, fails crucial Leaderships, etc.).

2. Poor play by the opponent (i.e. doesn't spread out his units, doesn't stick to cover, doesn't take advantage of BLOS terrain, etc.)

3. The opponent's Initiative gets stolen.

4. He is playing a mainly Reserves army (or he leaves a substantial portion of his army in Reserves). Thus, it is quite possible to to "table" him if you can get rid of the units on the table before T2 reserves come in.


In any case, I believe the scenario you are describing is an extreme case - not impossible, but highly unlikely against another experienced and/or good general.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
With blast weapons and gets hot, a roll of one still fires the blast.

Incorrect, please reread the Get's Hot section on pg 37.

Huh, I guess you are right. I'm not sure if this is just a rule change, but the guys I play with have never used it that way.

Lol, enforce this rule and you may see the power of your Opponent's Riptides drop slightly... Once per game average to not shoot is significant. I can't tell you how many times it happened to me on the first turn or critical juncture.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jy2 wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:

1) No, it was not an exageration. DOW (long board sides) is an easy game for Tau especially for first turn. So please, don't call BS if you don't know the army match ups especially if you weren't there to see the hilarity.

2) Riptides are stupid when cuppled with markerlights, people hardly ever do so.

3) Offer productive responses rather than bashing first hand experience behind the board, from both a Tau player, and Tau exterminator.

That is all, good day.

While not entirely impossible, I find this to be highly unlikely, especially if his opponent was a skilled player. This game you witnessed (or maybe played in?) looks more to be the exception rather than the norm. IMO it really isn't indicative of how a triptide/quad-tide list normally plays out. Yes, they are good enough to win consistently. But to table an opponent on Turn 1?!? In order for that to happen, it would probably require a combination of several factors:

1. Good dice for the Tau player. Most likely bad dice by the opponent (i.e. poor saves, fails crucial Leaderships, etc.).

2. Poor play by the opponent (i.e. doesn't spread out his units, doesn't stick to cover, doesn't take advantage of BLOS terrain, etc.)

3. The opponent's Initiative gets stolen.

4. He is playing a mainly Reserves army (or he leaves a substantial portion of his army in Reserves). Thus, it is quite possible to to "table" him if you can get rid of the units on the table before T2 reserves come in.


In any case, I believe the scenario you are describing is an extreme case - not impossible, but highly unlikely against another experienced and/or good general.

I agree completely.

The biggest part of my game that Riptides kill are BA FNP ASM. BA FNP ASM might be able to get somewhere against Eldar with sheer numbers, but against Tau, the Riptide blast template can ignore my shield of sanguinius and FNP. With so many points tied up in those defenses, that makes me not viable against Tau with that build.

I'm trying to ally SM to BA, but short of hardcore white scars, I don't have a plan for Riptides.

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 PipeAlley wrote:
Execellent info above. Great read.

My only comment is this:

I struggle to understand one aspect of the Riptide: that it has 5 wounds. It's almost like its supposed to be a super heavy Apoc. vehicle.

Assuming it has 5 wounds due to "technology" and/or reduntant repair systems, it'd make more sense for it to always have 3++ Inv which can be Nova charged to 2++ Inv and at most have 4 wounds. 5 just seems overly excessive for something piloted by a T3 alien. It almost has Tyranid stats.

Just my two cents and was wondering if anybody else thought the 5 W's were excessive, over-the-top, and unsupported by previous 40k models precedence.

I'm sure the Riptide started out as a four wound MC, but they found the NOVA reactor really chipped away wounds and made the Riptide underperform. I bet if the NOVA Reactor didn't hurt the Riptide it'd be a four wound MC.

Martel have you tried an IH; EW/2+/3++/IWND Chapter Master to tank wounds, a TFC to barrage the ethereal/markerlights, and berhaps a combi-grav/2x grav-gun biker squad for troops or a grav-command squad. The CM is what would make this work as if he tanks for the grav squad it will take silly fire power to kill him. He also allows you to charge a riptide and tank the smash attacks on him with relatively little effect.

In fact the CM in a big DC or assault squad could change the dynamic enough to just perhaps make them good.

I have been experimenting with something similar in my DA lists (switch the TFC to a stormraven, what my DA would give for the BA stormraven).

Martel732 wrote:
The biggest part of my game that Riptides kill are BA FNP ASM. BA FNP ASM might be able to get somewhere against Eldar with sheer numbers, but against Tau, the Riptide blast template can ignore my shield of sanguinius and FNP. With so many points tied up in those defenses, that makes me not viable against Tau with that build.

I'm trying to ally SM to BA, but short of hardcore white scars, I don't have a plan for Riptides.

I completely understand. IA Riptides are really bad news for BA ASM.

I've played against a local BA player with my Riptides twice, both games were close with me scoring a minor victory in each. One game he podded right on top of me with a Furioso and ASM and I couldn't risk the IA blast while he utilized LOS blocking terrain and Forewarning from his Libby to close the gap with his ASM. I couldn't Intercept with enough damage and had to direct force against his immenent threat.

The second time he utilized LOSblocking terrain to hide his ASM from over 90% of my first turn shooting while a LRC full of ASM with Corbulo and a Libby got rammed down my throat. I was able to counter it both times, but both games were close as I could flee his LR into his Vindiator's LOS and range or try and negate his assault. I basically sacrificed both Riptides to hold up each squad, until they got swept or Force Weaponed, long enough for me to get away and my DSing Fusion suits neutralized his Vindicator giving me an avenue to flee. It boiled down to not being able take out the LR at range and fleeing with the Tau shuffle herded me towards the Vinciator.

In both games I would have wiped the floor with him on a completely open table, but my local store for tournaments is pretty good with terrain on most of their tables, some great, some good, some bad.

Have you tried LRs against your Tau Opponents? I for one find AV14 difficult to Crack and can only reliably crack open one AV14 thread T2. Its the reason I run Fusion as my Secondary weapon instead of SMS. Which reminds me, I should talk about secondary weapons on Riptides.

I don't know ahead of time what my opponent will be. Most lists that might be good vs Tau, don't look so good vs Eldar and other common lists.

 Zagman wrote:

BS 3 does matter when shooting templates, granted not as much as firing the HBC, but it does increase nearly every scatter result. I did the math, only 28% of the time will you stick your target with an IA shot. The biggest downside to the IA is that it Get's Got, 1/6 chance you do not fire the weapon.

Just wanted to work this out:

1/6 chance of not being able to fire - 16.6%

1/3 chance to hit on scatter dice - 33%

3/36 chance to scatter but not move - 8.3%

So thats 33 + 8.3 - 16.6 = 24.7 % chance

In essence, you were actually being a bit generous there. However of course there is always the chance of a higher scatter but still hit something or even scattering onto another unit.

If the Riptide is firing with the aid of one markerlight then that 3/36 chance changes to a 4/36 chance ~ 11% making it 27.5% overall.

But what was being argued was the fact that the Riptide that fires the blast is aided by one of the things listed (Markerlights, Buff Commander, Eldar Farseer, etc.). So the BS3 will most likely not play AS large a roll.

Overall it seems like a solid review of a Riptide, but it is still a very powerful unit, and one that is hard to ignore. I am not an ultra competitive gamer, but I can see the value of these monsters in a game. Tau are big now, but I'll be interested to see how these things handle the big three ahead as was stated earlier (Nids, IG, Orks). I think these guys will be very good still, but not the widow maker's they are now.

Some good insight here.

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know ahead of time what my opponent will be. Most lists that might be good vs Tau, don't look so good vs Eldar and other common lists.

I think the LR can look decent against a variety of lists right now, IMO Land Raiders and Storm Ravens are about all that BA can do right now. Well, and Corbulo and Mephiston.


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 DarthOvious wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

BS 3 does matter when shooting templates, granted not as much as firing the HBC, but it does increase nearly every scatter result. I did the math, only 28% of the time will you stick your target with an IA shot. The biggest downside to the IA is that it Get's Got, 1/6 chance you do not fire the weapon.

Just wanted to work this out:

1/6 chance of not being able to fire - 16.6%

1/3 chance to hit on scatter dice - 33%

3/36 chance to scatter but not move - 8.3%

So thats 33 + 8.3 - 16.6 = 24.7 % chance

In essence, you were actually being a bit generous there. However of course there is always the chance of a higher scatter but still hit something or even scattering onto another unit.

If the Riptide is firing with the aid of one markerlight then that 3/36 chance changes to a 4/36 chance ~ 11% making it 27.5% overall.

Don't forget to multiply out the chance of not firing. I think I factored in a 1-2" Scatter as hitting its target giving it a bit of wiggle room.

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I don't know ahead of time what my opponent will be. Most lists that might be good vs Tau, don't look so good vs Eldar and other common lists.

I think the LR can look decent against a variety of lists right now, IMO Land Raiders and Storm Ravens are about all that BA can do right now. Well, and Corbulo and Mephiston.

I only own one LR and I have no plans to buy any more GW any time soon, unfortunately. (Or fortunately, depending on how one looks at it)

 Matt1785 wrote:
But what was being argued was the fact that the Riptide that fires the blast is aided by one of the things listed (Markerlights, Buff Commander, Eldar Farseer, etc.). So the BS3 will most likely not play AS large a roll.

Overall it seems like a solid review of a Riptide, but it is still a very powerful unit, and one that is hard to ignore. I am not an ultra competitive gamer, but I can see the value of these monsters in a game. Tau are big now, but I'll be interested to see how these things handle the big three ahead as was stated earlier (Nids, IG, Orks). I think these guys will be very good still, but not the widow maker's they are now.

Some good insight here.

Yes, Supported Riptides, IMO what people need to be doing if they are fielding them mitigate both the BS3 and Get's Hot Cons of the Riptide making it much much more effective on the table.

I agree completely, the Riptide is very powerful, but once Nids, IG, and Orks hit will get knocked down a peg, at least by Nids and Orks as they will bring to tools to tarpit/kill them. Wraithknights are going to take a hit as well. And if there is enough fast S4 assault units Wave Serpents may also have something to fear. But, I doubt Wave Serpents will get unseated as the power unit of 40k.

 Matt1785 wrote:
But what was being argued was the fact that the Riptide that fires the blast is aided by one of the things listed (Markerlights, Buff Commander, Eldar Farseer, etc.). So the BS3 will most likely not play AS large a roll.

Whatever you use to aid the Riptide costs points also. So you're 200 odd point Riptide now costs 200 odd points plus 100pts for a farseer, 170pts for a buffmander or 118pts for a ten man unit of Pathfinders.

Believe it or not but I don't always support my Riptide with markerlights. The markerlights sometimes go to supporting other units in my list. Having Broadsides with HYMP & SMS hit on 2s is just really rather nasty. Sometimes they can kill a lot more if the opposing unit is in range.

Overall it seems like a solid review of a Riptide, but it is still a very powerful unit, and one that is hard to ignore. I am not an ultra competitive gamer, but I can see the value of these monsters in a game. Tau are big now, but I'll be interested to see how these things handle the big three ahead as was stated earlier (Nids, IG, Orks). I think these guys will be very good still, but not the widow maker's they are now.

It is indeed a great unit. No question about it. I think this is more down to its survivability rather than its fire output. If Riptides were easier to kill I don't think anybody would complain about its fire output at all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zagman wrote:

You forgot the chance of rolling a two or three on the scatter dice which though a scatter result is rolled is still a hit.

Doh!! I forgot that with BS4 you can roll a 3 and a 1 on the dice and not scatter. So its actually 6/36 chance. Let me just type out the dice results for this.

1:1
1:2
1:3
2:1
2:2
3:1

So thats 6 possible results. So I think it is 6/36.

So thats 33 + 16.6 - 16.6 = 33% chance to hit.

Thanks for the correction. Just some slight forgetfullness on my side.