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Situation -

A unit fails morale after shooting and is on the 3rd level of a ruin. The unit is 8 inches away from the table edge (horizontal distance) and rolls 10 inches for its fall back move.

Question -

Does the unit subtract 3" for each level it must climb down, then move back 4" and stay on the table, or does it fall back 10 inches straight, ignoring the "climb down 3" per level" as the fall back rules state you ignore difficult terrain and end up off the table?

Thanks!

Moving down is not difficult terrain so you'd have to pay the 3"

You are not allowed to have your infantry models fly straight back, you have to climb down before you go laterally.

This is backed by the terrain and movement rules that tell us that models are allowed to move through terrain. There is no permission to move through something that is not terrain (Like air) without specific exception.

Gotcha. I thought the height of the terrain was part of it being difficult, seems like that is not the case.

rigeld2 wrote:
Moving down is not difficult terrain so you'd have to pay the 3"

This is incorrect. Moving up or down in a ruin is difficult terrain, however that is ignored for the fall back move rule so pay 3".

Right answer, wrong reasoning.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
Moving down is not difficult terrain so you'd have to pay the 3"

This is incorrect. Moving up or down in a ruin is difficult terrain, however that is ignored for the fall back move rule so pay 3".

Right answer, wrong reasoning.

Page 98 does not say that moving up or down is difficult terrain. It says that Ruins are. My statement was correct.

Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

And none of that says that moving down is difficult terrain.

p98 wrote:Even though different building models vary, the typical distance between levels in a ruin is 3". A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3" of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult terrain, this means that if a 1 or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any vertical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level).

I bolded the part you seem to keep missing.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

And none of that says that moving down is difficult terrain.

p98 wrote:Even though different building models vary, the typical distance between levels in a ruin is 3". A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3" of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult terrain, this means that if a 1 or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any vertical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level).

I bolded the part you seem to keep missing.

Well, hold on now. If ruins are considered difficult terrain, why would you need to go down 3" when falling back through ruins?

Page 30 says "Most units fall back 2d6". Fall Back moves are not slowed by difficult terrain, but incur dangerous terrain tests as normal."

If they aren't slowed by difficult terrain, wouldn't they just go straight back? That was how I had always thought it worked.

 RobPro wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

And none of that says that moving down is difficult terrain.

p98 wrote:Even though different building models vary, the typical distance between levels in a ruin is 3". A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3" of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult terrain, this means that if a 1 or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any vertical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level).

I bolded the part you seem to keep missing.

Well, hold on now. If ruins are considered difficult terrain, why would you need to go down 3" when falling back through ruins?

Page 30 says "Most units fall back 2d6". Fall Back moves are not slowed by difficult terrain, but incur dangerous terrain tests as normal."

If they aren't slowed by difficult terrain, wouldn't they just go straight back? That was how I had always thought it worked.

They move straight back toward the table edge, but once they reach the limit of that floor of the ruin then need to descend to move further towards the table edge.

If there is no more ruin for them to move toward the table edge, they must descend.

But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

 RobPro wrote:
But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

Because they ignore difficult terrain. Ruins are difficult terrain. Stairs are not.

 RobPro wrote:
But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

Difficult terrain just forces you to roll for random movement distance. Whether or not you are rolling for random movement, the distance you are moving from floor to floor is still 3".

The vertical distance is not an artefact of difficult terrain any more than the horizontal distance through the terrain is.

Aren't you simply forced to jump down as that is moving towards your board edge by the shortest possible route? Pg99

there is an arguement that the unit falling back is supposed to jump from the level and survivors continue onwards, but imo it should remian player choice.

as for falling back between levels you stil must cover the ground between the levels to reach the bottom, as stated your only ignoring the usual movement penalties of taking a terrain test, your not entitled to ignore the movement between the floors.

There is an arguement that the unit falling back is supposed to jump from the level and survivors continue onwards, but imo it should remian player choice.

Page 99 states you only get a choice if you're not falling back. If you are falling back you have to jump.

 FlingitNow wrote:

There is an arguement that the unit falling back is supposed to jump from the level and survivors continue onwards, but imo it should remian player choice.

Page 99 states you only get a choice if you're not falling back. If you are falling back you have to jump.

That's not what it says. If you are not falling back you may elect to leap down. That does not equate to "If you are falling back you MUST leap down".

Also, Fallback states the unit is not slowed by difficult terrain (but still takes dangerous terrain tests), not that it ignores it completely.
The shortest route from point a to point b if you're on (for example) the third level of a ruin would be straight down (6"), then straight back to point b from there, and not being slowed by difficult terrain (no restriction to that fallback distance).

Rorschach9 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

There is an arguement that the unit falling back is supposed to jump from the level and survivors continue onwards, but imo it should remian player choice.

Page 99 states you only get a choice if you're not falling back. If you are falling back you have to jump.

That's not what it says. If you are not falling back you may elect to leap down. That does not equate to "If you are falling back you MUST leap down".

If anything; from that wording, I'd say that if you are falling back.. you can't leap down.

i.e. IF you are NOT falling you back, you may. So if you ARE then you may not.

Rorschach9 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

There is an arguement that the unit falling back is supposed to jump from the level and survivors continue onwards, but imo it should remian player choice.

Page 99 states you only get a choice if you're not falling back. If you are falling back you have to jump.

That's not what it says. If you are not falling back you may elect to leap down. That does not equate to "If you are falling back you MUST leap down".

Also, Fallback states the unit is not slowed by difficult terrain (but still takes dangerous terrain tests), not that it ignores it completely.
The shortest route from point a to point b if you're on (for example) the third level of a ruin would be straight down (6"), then straight back to point b from there, and not being slowed by difficult terrain (no restriction to that fallback distance).

If you are not falling back you may choose means you can choose if you are not falling back and says nothing about falling back units.

Can falling back units keep down at all? Yes see the first sentence in that paragraph where jumping down is opened to all models (thus including falling back units) non-falling back units can elect to jump down to skip the difficult terrain test.

Models falling back are forced to take the quickest route thus being forced to jump down.

Whilst your reasoning isn't flawed, I don't feel that they MUST jump.

It's a) not clear from the ruins and b) surely not what GW intend.

The FAQ offers no help either.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Models falling back are forced to take the quickest route thus being forced to jump down.

Whether the models move down level by level or jump, the distance is the same. There is no requirement for Falling Back models to jump. It's an option for units that are not falling back.

 insaniak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Models falling back are forced to take the quickest route thus being forced to jump down.

Whether the models move down level by level or jump, the distance is the same. There is no requirement for Falling Back models to jump. It's an option for units that are not falling back.

Admittedly when I wrote that I assumed the vertical movement didn't count towards distance when jumping off. Which looking at the rules again doesn't seem to be the case. What happens when I elect to leap off an 8" ruin with only 6" movement? Do I stop 2" from the ground?

 insaniak wrote:

 RobPro wrote:
But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

Difficult terrain just forces you to roll for random movement distance. Whether or not you are rolling for random movement, the distance you are moving from floor to floor is still 3".

The vertical distance is not an artefact of difficult terrain any more than the horizontal distance through the terrain is.

Where does the rulebook specify that vertical distance is different? Are there instances where you need to move up or down a level and pay 3" without it being difficult? If it is something that only matters in difficult terrain, why wouldn't you ignore it if you're ignoring difficult terrain?

The height of the ruin is inconsequential the rules to move from floor to floor stops you on the floor your models are on if you full move does not allow you fully to complete the move to the next level

Example - A two story ruin with 3" between floors:
your fallback roll lets you moving 5" you can move 3" down to the next level but will not be able to move to the ground floor as that would be 1" further than the maximun distance you can move.

There is no mention of leaping down as part of your fallback move in the rui s section only the buildings section.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Pg99 - if the distance between levels in a ruin is not 3", simply measure the distance between the levels to determine how much movement a model requires to move up or down between them.

Little rule book first few lines of page


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just because the terrain is hard to get across doesnt mean it isn't there.

 RobPro wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 RobPro wrote:
But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

Difficult terrain just forces you to roll for random movement distance. Whether or not you are rolling for random movement, the distance you are moving from floor to floor is still 3".

The vertical distance is not an artefact of difficult terrain any more than the horizontal distance through the terrain is.

Where does the rulebook specify that vertical distance is different? Are there instances where you need to move up or down a level and pay 3" without it being difficult? If it is something that only matters in difficult terrain, why wouldn't you ignore it if you're ignoring difficult terrain?

Fall back does not "ignore difficult terrain"; Fall back states your models are not slowed by difficult terrain. There's a big difference there.
You do not get to ignore the vertical movement entirely, just the difficult terrain effect of it.

 RobPro wrote:
Where does the rulebook specify that vertical distance is different?

It doesn't... which is the point. If you move 3", then you moved 3". Whether that was horizontally or vertically makes no difference to the total distance you have moved.

The only difference being difficult terrain makes is that you determine how far you can move with a dice roll. The 3" between levels is nothing to do with it being difficult terrain... it's because there are 3" between levels.

Are there instances where you need to move up or down a level and pay 3" without it being difficult?

Falling Back comes mind...

You're not 'paying' 3", any more than you are 'paying' 3" when you move 3" horizontally. It's costing you 3" of movement when you move vertically because you moved 3".

rigeld2 wrote:

 RobPro wrote:
But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

Because they ignore difficult terrain. Ruins are difficult terrain. Stairs are not.

Ruins are difficult terrain. Vertical movement requires a test just like horizontal. I assume you have a page number for the "Stairs Rule" ?

I don't think anyone is saying you don't measure down first then towards the board edge. I think we have moved onto falling back through difficult terrain which is ignored when falling back. I hope we all agree on this.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 RobPro wrote:
But why do they have to pay the 3 inch cost to descend if they ignore it? What makes that cost something separate from their movement ignoring difficult terrain?

Because they ignore difficult terrain. Ruins are difficult terrain. Stairs are not.

Ruins are difficult terrain. Vertical movement requires a test just like horizontal. I assume you have a page number for the "Stairs Rule" ?

You cited it. Perhaps you missed it. Ruins are difficult terrain. Stairs aren't.

Page and graph for your stair rules then please.