Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

As I said, you cited it earlier.
We have rules saying Ruins are difficult terrain.
We have no rules saying vertical movement is difficult terrain.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

As I said, you cited it earlier.
We have rules saying Ruins are difficult terrain.
We have no rules saying vertical movement is difficult terrain.

Pg 98 clearly disagrees, unless you can cite a page for your stairs rule.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

As I said, you cited it earlier.
We have rules saying Ruins are difficult terrain.
We have no rules saying vertical movement is difficult terrain.

Pg 98 clearly disagrees, unless you can cite a page for your stairs rule.

... Really? What rule on page 98 says that vertical movement is difficult terrain?
Please quote it here.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Admittedly when I wrote that I assumed the vertical movement didn't count towards distance when jumping off. Which looking at the rules again doesn't seem to be the case. What happens when I elect to leap off an 8" ruin with only 6" movement? Do I stop 2" from the ground?

Since you're given specific permission to jump off the terrain to the ground, this would ignore normal movement restrictions.

The rules clearly state under what situation you can move vertically in a ruin PG98 big book. Otherwise your models can only move horizontally. Stairs, ladders, ropes, lift etc are theoretical and don't physically need to exist to be able to move vertically. As long as you end your move on a suitable piece of terrain and do not exceed your maximum movement its all good....

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

As I said, you cited it earlier.
We have rules saying Ruins are difficult terrain.
We have no rules saying vertical movement is difficult terrain.

Pg 98 clearly disagrees, unless you can cite a page for your stairs rule.

... Really? What rule on page 98 says that vertical movement is difficult terrain?
Please quote it here.

Your obviously not reading that entire paragraph where they give examples of not being able to move. In your HIWPI, you should be able to declare you model is going straight up 2 level or down 2 levels and not have to make a test at all. Clearly shown to be false by that paragraph.

A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3 " of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult rerrain, this means that if a I or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any verrical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level)

You are in a ruin... you are moving (up down left right, doesnt matter) therefore you have to roll a test.

Movement can not be terrain so direction of the movement has no bearing on this. The piece of terrain the movement is happening on or in is difficult terrain so vertical or horizontal if its happening on or in the terrain its considered difficult.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would also conseed that vertical movement without a ruin or sanctioned building is very dangerous and should not be attempted by anyone other than a stormboy

Fragile wrote:
Your obviously not reading that entire paragraph where they give examples of not being able to move. In your HIWPI, you should be able to declare you model is going straight up 2 level or down 2 levels and not have to make a test at all. Clearly shown to be false by that paragraph.

A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3 " of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult rerrain, this means that if a I or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any verrical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level)

You are in a ruin... you are moving (up down left right, doesnt matter) therefore you have to roll a test.

Yes, moving through the ruin is moving through difficult terrain.

But if you ignore movement penalties for moving through difficult terrain, you still measure the actual distance moved... you just don't determine how far you can move with a random roll.

I think we have moved away a little from the fallback side of things insainiak is right to bring it back on topic. Difficult or dangerous does not apply when falling back so in fact if you rolled 2 d6 for your fallback move and got ten, the levels where 3" per level you can move vertically down 6" and across 4" regardless of the difficult or dangerous terrain rules.

 insaniak wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your obviously not reading that entire paragraph where they give examples of not being able to move. In your HIWPI, you should be able to declare you model is going straight up 2 level or down 2 levels and not have to make a test at all. Clearly shown to be false by that paragraph.

A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3 " of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult rerrain, this means that if a I or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any verrical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level)

You are in a ruin... you are moving (up down left right, doesnt matter) therefore you have to roll a test.

Yes, moving through the ruin is moving through difficult terrain.

But if you ignore movement penalties for moving through difficult terrain, you still measure the actual distance moved... you just don't determine how far you can move with a random roll.

That doesnt apply to what me and Rigeld are arguing.

Fragile wrote:
Your obviously not reading that entire paragraph where they give examples of not being able to move. In your HIWPI, you should be able to declare you model is going straight up 2 level or down 2 levels and not have to make a test at all. Clearly shown to be false by that paragraph.

That's not true. Since the rules say Ruins are difficult terrain, to move within them you must roll.
My only statement is that moving up and down does not per se require a difficult terrain test. It only does if you're in difficult terrain.

You are in a ruin... you are moving (up down left right, doesnt matter) therefore you have to roll a test.

So... You agree with me?

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your obviously not reading that entire paragraph where they give examples of not being able to move. In your HIWPI, you should be able to declare you model is going straight up 2 level or down 2 levels and not have to make a test at all. Clearly shown to be false by that paragraph.

That's not true. Since the rules say Ruins are difficult terrain, to move within them you must roll.
My only statement is that moving up and down does not per se require a difficult terrain test. It only does if you're in difficult terrain.

And you were, which invalidated your statement.

Fragile wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Your obviously not reading that entire paragraph where they give examples of not being able to move. In your HIWPI, you should be able to declare you model is going straight up 2 level or down 2 levels and not have to make a test at all. Clearly shown to be false by that paragraph.

That's not true. Since the rules say Ruins are difficult terrain, to move within them you must roll.
My only statement is that moving up and down does not per se require a difficult terrain test. It only does if you're in difficult terrain.

And you were, which invalidated your statement.

Not when falling back.
Hooray rules and context

ROFL, it never stops being difficult terrain, it is just ignored. But this has reached its end.

Say a unit is already at the edge of the ruin and is on level 3 and must fall back 5 inches. Does this mean they are trapped and removed as they descend one level (-3") and the remaining 2 inches of their fall back is not enough to reach the lowest level, but they are required to move the full distance? They cannot move closer horizontally to the board edge because they are already at the limit of the ruin.

They don't fulfill the requirements for Trapped! so aren't destroyed.

They are not removed they just stop on the second level

Buildings are not difficult terrain. If a model leaps down from the battlements it is not going to make a difficult terrain test. If I model climbs a ladder on the side of a building to get to the battlements it is not in difficult terrain and does not take any difficult terrain tests. Vertical movement does not equate to difficult terrain. Only vertical movement in a ruin does, and that is because you are in a ruin. The level change only costs 3" of movement in a ruin as well. Not because it is difficult terrain but because it is in a ruin. RAW A model could ascend to the top of a 9" building after moving 5" towards the ladder because the building is not a ruin.

When falling back you get to ignore being in difficult terrain, you don't get to ignore being in a ruin.

 insaniak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Admittedly when I wrote that I assumed the vertical movement didn't count towards distance when jumping off. Which looking at the rules again doesn't seem to be the case. What happens when I elect to leap off an 8" ruin with only 6" movement? Do I stop 2" from the ground?

Since you're given specific permission to jump off the terrain to the ground, this would ignore normal movement restrictions.

So if a unit rolls a 5 for its fallback move and is on the 2nd story of a ruin would it be forced to jump down? As jumping down is a shorter route (you travel 6" with your 5" move).

 FlingitNow wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Admittedly when I wrote that I assumed the vertical movement didn't count towards distance when jumping off. Which looking at the rules again doesn't seem to be the case. What happens when I elect to leap off an 8" ruin with only 6" movement? Do I stop 2" from the ground?

Since you're given specific permission to jump off the terrain to the ground, this would ignore normal movement restrictions.

So if a unit rolls a 5 for its fallback move and is on the 2nd story of a ruin would it be forced to jump down? As jumping down is a shorter route (you travel 6" with your 5" move).

No, as you are not allowed to move 6 inches.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Admittedly when I wrote that I assumed the vertical movement didn't count towards distance when jumping off. Which looking at the rules again doesn't seem to be the case. What happens when I elect to leap off an 8" ruin with only 6" movement? Do I stop 2" from the ground?

Since you're given specific permission to jump off the terrain to the ground, this would ignore normal movement restrictions.

So if a unit rolls a 5 for its fallback move and is on the 2nd story of a ruin would it be forced to jump down? As jumping down is a shorter route (you travel 6" with your 5" move).

No, as you are not allowed to move 6 inches.

So again if I elect to jump off an 8" ruin with my normal move do I stop 2" from the ground? Hovering in midair? Or can I indeed move further than my allotted movement when jumping down?

 FlingitNow wrote:
So if a unit rolls a 5 for its fallback move and is on the 2nd story of a ruin would it be forced to jump down?

As I read it, units that are falling back don't have the option to jump down.

 insaniak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So if a unit rolls a 5 for its fallback move and is on the 2nd story of a ruin would it be forced to jump down?

As I read it, units that are falling back don't have the option to jump down.

They don't have the ability to elect to do it to avoid a DT test. "If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin...., the models can always jump down". So we know all models can jump down even if falling back only falling back models can't elect to do it rather than take a DT test, which makes perfect sense as falling back models never take DT tests.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Admittedly when I wrote that I assumed the vertical movement didn't count towards distance when jumping off. Which looking at the rules again doesn't seem to be the case. What happens when I elect to leap off an 8" ruin with only 6" movement? Do I stop 2" from the ground?

Since you're given specific permission to jump off the terrain to the ground, this would ignore normal movement restrictions.

So if a unit rolls a 5 for its fallback move and is on the 2nd story of a ruin would it be forced to jump down? As jumping down is a shorter route (you travel 6" with your 5" move).

No, as you are not allowed to move 6 inches.

So again if I elect to jump off an 8" ruin with my normal move do I stop 2" from the ground? Hovering in midair? Or can I indeed move further than my allotted movement when jumping down?

you can't jump pff an 8inch ruin, you are not allowed to move that far.

you can't jump pff an 8inch ruin, you are not allowed to move that far.

Page 99 says I can always leap down.

rigeld2 wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Pg 98, Moving within a Ruin. second paragraph under Infantry, first three sentences.

And none of that says that moving down is difficult terrain.

p98 wrote:Even though different building models vary, the typical distance between levels in a ruin is 3". A model moving on foot in a ruin therefore needs 3" of its movement to go up or down a level. As ruins are difficult terrain, this means that if a 1 or 2 is rolled, a model may not make any vertical movement (but may still move horizontally on its level).

I bolded the part you seem to keep missing.

I am posting because this is the most ridiculous contradiction ever, vertical stands for up and down, it does not mean just up. If you move up or down in a ruin it's difficult terrain that's why in your own quote it says on a roll of 1 or 2 the model can't Move vertical/up or down.

Also where is this stairs nonsense? All stairs determine if players only allow movement between floors if there are stairs, no where does it state stairs are a separate entity from ruins.

 FlingitNow wrote:

you can't jump pff an 8inch ruin, you are not allowed to move that far.

Page 99 says I can always leap down.

Sure, but Can't Trumps can in a permissive ruleset.

You can't move more than 6 inches.

You can leap down...

But doesn't Always trump can't and even if not don't advance rules trump basic rules...

 FlingitNow wrote:
But doesn't Always trump can't and even if not don't advance rules trump basic rules...

Not unless it specifically calls out that rule.

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
But doesn't Always trump can't and even if not don't advance rules trump basic rules...

Not unless it specifically calls out that rule.

No that's specific versus general. Advance by default trumps basic rules without needing to be more specific.