Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Except leaping would take the unit closer to the table edge without triggering the trapped rule, as fallback is not voluntary movement they must leap. If you move lateraly then you have not moved closer to the table edge when the unit could have lept and moved closer.

In this case there is no enemy or even impassible terrain, which are the examples they gave that give you permission to double back. You cannot move around vertical distance. If the unit cannot leap down and cannot continue to move 2 more inches per its fallback roll, why isn't it trapped and destroyed?

Citation needed for where it allows a Unit that is falling back to leap down. I still a not seeing it, a quote with underscore or some kind of highlight would help.

Here you go:

"If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models [bcan always jump down[/b]"

Are units that are falling back still units. If so then the above is permission to always jump down...

 FlingitNow wrote:

Citation needed for where it allows a Unit that is falling back to leap down. I still a not seeing it, a quote with underscore or some kind of highlight would help.

Here you go:

"If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models [bcan always jump down[/b]"

Are units that are falling back still units. If so then the above is permission to always jump down...

Fluff text, but... Leaping Down places the models, Falling back requires you to move. That is why you cannot Leap down while falling back.

You cannot leap down from a ruin whilst falling back

GRAVITY – NATURE’S DOWNWARD EXPRESS

If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models can always jump down. This, as it sounds, is really quite dangerous and bound to end with a sickening snapping noise, but desperation can often make such things necessary. A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test. However, all descending models in the unit must take an Impact test.

Please if you cite something don't pick a few words in the middle of sentence or the first half of a paragraph just because it supports your argument. Specially if the next part proves you wrong.

You're not electing to jump, you're forced to jump if you cannot complete the full move. Elect means you have a choice, fallback is specifically excluded from electing to jump as you have no choice. but they can always jump if it is the only option that takes them closest ti thier table edge.

If you are falling back you have no permission to jump.

The fallback rule states:
Each model in the unit moves directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible ROUTE

It only mentions the path you take not the method. When leaping from a structure is mandatory part of the fall back move it is specifically mentioned I.e. leaping from destroyed battlements.

A fallback move is a tactical withdraw. In your version of the rules models would be hurling themselves willy nilly from the top floors of ruins regardless of the consequences.

I don't see how moving down is directly towards your table edge...

Because vertical distance is measured as well as horizontal

Moving down isn't moving directly to the table edge but it is necessary step to take before moving towards the table egde by the shortest possible route. It is exactly the same as moving left or right first to go around impassable terrain.

Again they cannot elect to leap, there is no denial for a unit falling back to leap if they must. As for verticle movement, being floors up is tge same as being 9 inches further away as far as falling back is concerned. Leaping is going closer to the table edge compared to walking along 2 inches parallel to it because you are at least a base length closer by comparison.

You count the 3" down per level first, then the horizontal movement back to the table edge. You are not required to leap.

Plain and simple, the Fall Back rules use all elements of the Movement rules except for the two exceptions - ignoring Difficult Terrain tests and direction of movement.

You ignore Difficult Terrain tests because it normally requires a roll and the Fall Back is already a roll. Secondly, Fall Back means you must move towards the table edge - not in some direction you choose. Otherwise all other movement rules apply normally.

Moving vertically down a building is moving involuntarily towards your table edge. To look at this different. If a three story ruin was 6" from the table edge and you started a model right on your table edge and eventually moved it to the third story, you would expend 15" of movement to do so (6" horizontal followed by 9" of vertical). When you fall back, you can simply look at it as tracing a line back from the way you got there.

Fluff text, but... Leaping Down places the models, Falling back requires you to move. That is why you cannot Leap down while falling back.

Please tell where in the rules this statement is in anyway supported. Nothing states that it is fluff text it uses clear game terminology and has a defined in game outcome. Where does it state placement and not movement?

Please if you cite something don't pick a few words in the middle of sentence or the first half of a paragraph just because it supports your argument. Specially if the next part proves you wrong.

How does the next part prove me wrong? Please read the thread and you'll understand what has been quoted and why and you'll not make these already debunked arguments.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Citation needed for where it allows a Unit that is falling back to leap down. I still a not seeing it, a quote with underscore or some kind of highlight would help.

Here you go:

"If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models [bcan always jump down[/b]"

Are units that are falling back still units. If so then the above is permission to always jump down...

Hmm so units are not actually given permission to jump down in what you quoted, only models.

Hmm so unitsa are not actually given permission to jump down in what you quoted, only models...

And what models is it talking about?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Hmm so unitsa are not actually given permission to jump down in what you quoted, only models...

And what models is it talking about?

But that does not matter because:

We have no rule that tells us what ' jump down' does on the tabletop. We therefore have to conclude that it is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

We have rules for Leaping Down, but not jumping down...

Game set match it seems.

We have no rule that tells us what ' jump down' does on the tabletop. We therefore have to conclude that it is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

Yes we do you take impact tests as per the last sentence of that same paragraph.

What models it is talking about isn't relevant. The actual rules discussing how to leap down limit their application to models not falling back. There are no rules addressing how to handle models that are falling back. Therefore there's no permission.

 FlingitNow wrote:

We have no rule that tells us what ' jump down' does on the tabletop. We therefore have to conclude that it is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

Yes we do you take impact tests as per the last sentence of that same paragraph.

Please cite what jump down' does as per the rules.

The actual rules discussing how to leap down limit their application to models not falling back.

Demonstrably false. The ONLY jumping down rules that don't apply to falling back units are the ability to give up a dalifficult terrain test. Please find other rules about jumping down that don't talk about difficult terrain and are limited to falling back units (notice how the impact tests are not limited to falling back units nor is the diagram explaining it).

There are no rules addressing how to handle models that are falling back.

Again the rules say otherwise. Notice how they say falling back units may jump down and that the models that do so suffer impact.

Therefore there's no permission.

Again that first sentence disagrees...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

We have no rule that tells us what ' jump down' does on the tabletop. We therefore have to conclude that it is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

Yes we do you take impact tests as per the last sentence of that same paragraph.

Please cite what jump down' does as per the rules.

What do you think jumping down does? Because for falling back units everything is the sane except they don't get to give up their difficult terrain test (which they never take anyway).

 FlingitNow wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

We have no rule that tells us what ' jump down' does on the tabletop. We therefore have to conclude that it is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

Yes we do you take impact tests as per the last sentence of that same paragraph.

Please cite what 'jump down' does as per the rules.

What do you think jumping down does?

Well considering there are absolutely zero rules for 'jump down' that first sentence is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

Unless you can give me a citation on what the rules for 'jump down' are.

The burden of proof in on you.

Well considering there are absolutely zero rules for 'jump down' that first sentence is either a non-functional rule, or fluff.

Unless you can give me a citation on what the rules for 'jump down' are.

The burden of proof in on you.

Then that 2nd sentence also does nothing other than allow people to avoid DT tests...

I've cited the rules I'm using you're now trying to prove that JD does nothing because your argument that falling back units can't do it fell flat on its face. But that argument (on how well defined JD is) applies just as much to your side as mine.

It is fluff because there is no "Jump Down". There is a Leap Down (p95) that is referenced in the sentence that forbids Falling Back units from doing it. That is the applicable rule and Leap Down is clearly defined.

Fragile wrote:
It is fluff because there is no "Jump Down". There is a Leap Down (p95) that is referenced in the sentence that forbids Falling Back units from doing it. That is the applicable rule and Leap Down is clearly defined.

Exactly this.

Jump Down is not a rule.

Fragile wrote:
It is fluff because there is no "Jump Down". There is a Leap Down (p95) that is referenced in the sentence that forbids Falling Back units from doing it. That is the applicable rule and Leap Down is clearly defined.

Not quite, it only permits units that are not falling back to elect to leap. Elect being by choice, as a fallback move is not a voluntary move it stands to reason that they can't choose to leap but are forced to leap if they cannot complete thier full fallback move..

 Bausk wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It is fluff because there is no "Jump Down". There is a Leap Down (p95) that is referenced in the sentence that forbids Falling Back units from doing it. That is the applicable rule and Leap Down is clearly defined.

Not quite, it only permits units that are not falling back to elect to leap. Elect being by choice, as a fallback move is not a voluntary move it stands to reason that they can't choose to leap but are forced to leap if they cannot complete thier full fallback move..

Cite rules allowing falling back units to leap down. We have rules allowing non-falling back units to leap down.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It is fluff because there is no "Jump Down". There is a Leap Down (p95) that is referenced in the sentence that forbids Falling Back units from doing it. That is the applicable rule and Leap Down is clearly defined.

Not quite, it only permits units that are not falling back to elect to leap. Elect being by choice, as a fallback move is not a voluntary move it stands to reason that they can't choose to leap but are forced to leap if they cannot complete thier full fallback move..

Cite rules allowing falling back units to leap down. We have rules allowing non-falling back units to leap down.

All of a single page back the permission is cited for all units without exception.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

 Bausk wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Bausk wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It is fluff because there is no "Jump Down". There is a Leap Down (p95) that is referenced in the sentence that forbids Falling Back units from doing it. That is the applicable rule and Leap Down is clearly defined.

Not quite, it only permits units that are not falling back to elect to leap. Elect being by choice, as a fallback move is not a voluntary move it stands to reason that they can't choose to leap but are forced to leap if they cannot complete thier full fallback move..

Cite rules allowing falling back units to leap down. We have rules allowing non-falling back units to leap down.

All of a single page back the permission is cited for all units without exception.

 FlingitNow wrote:
The first sentence clear states: "If a unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down, the model can ALWAYS jump down".

Emphasis mine. So we know from this ANY unit including fall back units can have their models jump down. Now find denial of that permission.

Which are rules for Leaping Down. Non-falling back units can elect to leap down from Ruins. A falling back unit only has permission to leap down from battlements.

Not quite happy, permission is granted for any unit to leap, permission to elect (as in choose to as opposed to must) to leap is givrn to units that are not falling back.

Any unit can leap but only units not falling back have the choice to leap or not.