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 FlingitNow wrote:

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Jumping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

I have can you quote rules for leaping down from a ruin?

And now, its become trolling.

Fragile wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Jumping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

I have can you quote rules for leaping down from a ruin?

And now, its become trolling.

Exactly how I feel when repeatedly asked to provide rules that I have already repeatedly posted. Yet your side has exactly 1 sentence that you are only applying half of as the entire basis of your argument...

Glad you admit that you're trolling.

 Nem wrote:
Pg99

Jumping down
Two space marines take dangerous terrain tests to jump down, both roll a 3 for their impact tests, the space marine on the left survives: He's only falling 3'', and so only suffers a -1 penalty to the test. The space marine on the right is falling 6'' giving him a -2 modifier which turns his 3 into a 1 - he is therefore removed as a casualty.

Jump / leap are used interchangeably,

Jump / leap are [not] used interchangeably within the actual rules of Leaping Down, they always use Leaping down to describe the rules. (Edit: Added the not, that was previously missing from my post).

The fluff may say jumping down (and indeed it does as there are no rules for jumping down, only for leaping down).

 FlingitNow wrote:

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Jumping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

I have can you quote rules for leaping down from a ruin?

Of course you can even though you have not provided one to back your argument, I have quoted a few times, but I can do it again.

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

Remember that the use of the word building here refers to a ruined building as pages 98-101 is talking about ruins so any mention of building means ruined building.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Exactly how I feel when repeatedly asked to provide rules that I have already repeatedly posted. Yet your side has exactly 1 sentence that you are only applying half of as the entire basis of your argument...

Glad you admit that you're trolling.

I literally just posted the whole sentence that contains the whole rule, how is that trolling exactly?

Jump / leap are used interchangeably within the actual rules of Leaping Down, they always use Leaping down to describe the rules.

The figure on page 99 disagrees with this statement.

Of course you can even though you have not provided one to back your argument, I have quoted a few times, but I can do it again.

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

Remember that the use of the word building here refers to a ruined building as pages 98-101 is talking about ruins so any mention of building means ruined building.

No, I mean there are literally zero rules for leaping down. (If you find some please supply a quote so we can tell what exactly you are talking about).

Jumping down has rules but not leaping down.

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Leaping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

See how annoying this is?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Jump / leap are used interchangeably within the actual rules of Leaping Down, they always use Leaping down to describe the rules.

The figure on page 99 disagrees with this statement.

Of course you can even though you have not provided one to back your argument, I have quoted a few times, but I can do it again.

"A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test." (99)

Remember that the use of the word building here refers to a ruined building as pages 98-101 is talking about ruins so any mention of building means ruined building.

No, I mean there are literally zero rules for leaping down. (If you find some please supply a quote so we can tell what exactly you are talking about).

Jumping down has rules but not leaping down.

Because you have not provided a citation for what 'Leaping Down' does in the rules.

We are still waiting for this. Quote please so we can tell what specifically you are referring to.

See how annoying this is?

(Emphasis mine) The underlined is 100% False information, please retract it or back it up with a quote.

Why are you ignoring my citation? I have posted rules that reference Leaping down on page 95, ill post that too though so we are clear as to what I am talking about since you can not read it for yourself.

"LEAPING DOWN
A unit can always elect to leap down from the battlements, although this incurs significant risk. To resolve this, choose one model from the battlements and place it anywhere wholly within 3" of the base of the building that is at least I " away from enemy models, and not in impassable or lethal terrain. That model must then take an Impact test. This is exactly like a Dangerous Terrain test, with a -l modifier for every full 3" the model has dropped. Unlike ordinary Dangerous Terrain tests, armour saves cannot be taken against Impact tests.Jump and Jet Pack models must still take Impact tests but they ignore any modifiers from falling 3 or more inches. If the model is slain, choose another and try again. If the model survives, resolve the same sequence for all the other models in the unit, taking care to remain in unit coherency. Any models that cannot be placed, for whatever reason, are removed as casualties with no saves of any kind allowed." (95) This is the passage for Leaping down, and what Page 99 is referring to.

I don't get what you mean when you say "See how annoying this is?"

How annoying what is, asking for the rules quote when you have not provided one?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Jump / leap are [not] used interchangeably within the actual rules of Leaping Down, they always use Leaping down to describe the rules.

The figure on page 99 disagrees with this statement.

Right I meant to say are not, the Post has been fixed.

It was a direct quote from you when I quoted rules for jumping down. Ignoring a citation for someone and then asking for that very citation is somewhat annoying. That was the point being made.

So again I ask you for a rules quote about what leaping down is.Since you hhaven't provided one.

While within the Leap Down rules it does not say jump down, in other areas they are referring to Leap down rule as Jumping down. Defiantly describing the rules of Leap down with the title Jumping down in the caption, jumping down is not describing fluff, its describing how the rule works, It means Leap down rules but only refers as jumping down - rules with characteristic changes and everything. - I'm not going to claim interchangeability on fluff. Quite literally they are using the Leap down rules, with a massive caption of Jumping down and telling you what to do when you want to jump down (When they mean leap down). Kak writing throws dispute into use of either word, and when it is referring to what. It throws plausibility to 'Jump' in the Ruins rules to mean Leap.


The whole leap down sections within ruins is a total mess. To me it looks like they wanted to use both rules across each area, I mean, Ruins Leap down rules are very incomplete, it doesn't tell you what to do at all, but only references battlements for the test. Its so bad RAW ruins leap is completely non functional.

They are using Jump when they mean Leap, Leap is defiantly the RAW of the rule but they are using the word Jump and Jumping when describing how you use the rule - As I say its sloppy writing, as seen across all the building, ruins and fort area of the rule book.

 FlingitNow wrote:
It was a direct quote from you when I quoted rules for jumping down. Ignoring a citation for someone and then asking for that very citation is somewhat annoying. That was the point being made.

So again I ask you for a rules quote about what leaping down is.Since you hhaven't provided one.

He didn't? The complete "Leaping Down" rule is quoted in the post right above yours, made several minutes before you claim that one hasn't been provided.

And the "Jumping Down" figure is not a rule. It's an example with no rules (and if, as you claim, it is a rule, then ONLY Space Marines can jump down as no other reference is given to "units" in general).

While "Jumping Down" and "Leaping down" MAY be the same thing RAI, it is not RAW.

It's an application example of rules for leap down, with a big bolded underlined Jumping down caption on it.



No RAW is not RAI, but RAI is not unimportant. RAW is as it is written, logical attained RAI is used in many everyday games, and is the basis for many tournament FAQ articles, and eventual official FAQ articles. Some cases we can never be sure we are playing correctly until a FAQ, and discussions around both areas help people to make their own decisions on how they want to play. To know the evidence for a RAI is in many cases just as important as reading the rule book. Especially in such cases, where the probability is higher, logical and easily argued using the terrible writing between those 2 pages.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
It's an application example of rules for leap down, with a big bolded underlined Jumping down caption on it.



No RAW is not RAI, but RAI is not unimportant. RAW is as it is written, logical attained RAI is used in many everyday games, and is the basis for many tournament FAQ articles, and eventual official FAQ articles. Some cases we can never be sure we are playing correctly until a FAQ, and discussions around both areas help people to make their own decisions on how they want to play. To know the evidence for a RAI is in many cases just as important as reading the rule book. Especially in such cases, where the probability is higher, logical and easily argued using the terrible writing between those 2 pages.

A unit that is not falling back and descending through a building can always elect to Leap Down to a lower level, rather than making a Difficult Terrain test. However, all descending models in the unit must take an Impact test

First - you can't elect to leap down because leaping down is a choice between impact test or difficult terrain test, since you don't take difficult terrain test for falling back you can't swap it for leaping down.

If your unit is in the upper floors of a ruin and wants to get down in a hurry, the models can always jump down. This, as it sounds, is really quite dangerous and bound to end with a sickening snapping noise, but desperation can often make such things necessary

Second - yes if you want to read this section as you can always jump down, then you as a player CAN but not MUST decide if you jump the rule example of how to work out this would be found in the text below:

JUMPING DOWN - Two Space Marines take Dangerous Terrain test to jump down. Both roll a 3 for their Impact tests. The Space Marine on the left survives: he's only failing 3", and so only suffers a -1 penalty to the test. The Space Marine on the right is falling 6" giving him a -2 modifier which turns his 3 into a 1 — he is therefore removed as a casualty.

Fallback rules state

Each model in the unit moves directly towards their own table edge by the shortest possible route.

Since this only mentions the route you must take (in our discussion the route would be vertically down then horizontally towards the board each) not the method it would make it the choice of the player to jump down or to climb down.

Since only a Muppet would risk killing his own falling back troops then why would the jump down rule ever be used as part of the fallback from a ruin section.

Why? Because jumping/leaping as opposed to moving parallel to to table edge on fallback moves that are not a multiple of 3" IS the shortest route available. The unit is not electing to jump/leap, it just is juming/leaping to complete its fallback movement as RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Additionally as a fallback move is not voluntary you have no choice. The unit either has enough movement to decend normally or it jumps/leaps because it doesn't.

Leap Down is not movement. You are placed at the bottom of the building / ruin.

You roll 2D6 and get a total of 12 that's 6" to get down and 6" towards the end of table 12" in total.

The leap down rule replaces your whole movement allowing you to take an impact test for the down measurement and then place your model 3" away from the base of the ruin. 6" down and 3" towards the table edge 9" in total.

At no point in the book does it say leap down or jump down and then carry out your move.

But it does say :

If the unit cannot perform a full Fall Back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed (see below).

Make of that what you will.

kranki wrote:
You roll 2D6 and get a total of 12 that's 6" to get down and 6" towards the end of table 12" in total.

The leap down rule replaces your whole movement allowing you to take an impact test for the down measurement and then place your model 3" away from the base of the ruin. 6" down and 3" towards the table edge 9" in total.

At no point in the book does it say leap down or jump down and then carry out your move.

But it does say :

If the unit cannot perform a full Fall Back move in any direction without doubling back, it is destroyed (see below).

Make of that what you will.

I thought it replaced the whole movement but it can't, as when falling back from battlements you must leap

Indeed the rule for abandon the battlements is quite specific

If a unit Falls Back while on a battlement, or the building below suffers a total collapse result

Since a ruin is not a battlement or a building the fallback move cannot be replaced with the leap down rule.

Fragile wrote:
Leap Down is not movement. You are placed at the bottom of the building / ruin.

Incorrect, it is movement.

"That model must then take an Impact test. This is exactly like a Dangerous Terrain test" (95)

When do Dangerous Terrain tests happen?

A: "each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." (90)

Still even if its is a move the rules do not let you swap leap down for fallback unless you follow the abandon the battlements rule which don't apply to ruins.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
Leap Down is not movement. You are placed at the bottom of the building / ruin.

Incorrect, it is movement.

"That model must then take an Impact test. This is exactly like a Dangerous Terrain test" (95)

When do Dangerous Terrain tests happen?

A: "each model must take a Dangerous Terrain test as soon as it enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain." (90)

It says it is like a DT test. It doesnt say it happens when a DT test does or has the trigger for a DT test. Do you take Impact tests for moving through DT ?

This is a DT Test. pg 90.

To take a Dangerous Terrain test, roll a D6. On a result of a l, that model suffers a Wound. the model may take an armour or invulnerable save, but not a cover save, against this Wound

Though I find our discussions fun I think this is another thread that has run it's course.

Fragile wrote:
It says it is like a DT test. It doesnt say it happens when a DT test does or has the trigger for a DT test.

No, it says it is "exactly like"

so everything that applies to a DT will apply to impact, including happening because you are moving.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It says it is like a DT test. It doesnt say it happens when a DT test does or has the trigger for a DT test.

No, it says it is "exactly like"

so everything that applies to a DT will apply to impact, including happening because you are moving.

Says exactly like the test, not exactly like the circumstances leading up to the test, or including all reasons why you might take a test. Just the Test, how you take a test doesn't have anything to do with movement. Sometimes you have to take a test because you have moved.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kranki wrote:
Indeed the rule for abandon the battlements is quite specific

If a unit Falls Back while on a battlement, or the building below suffers a total collapse result

Since a ruin is not a battlement or a building the fallback move cannot be replaced with the leap down rule.

Yeaaah I wasn't suggesting that. My point was Leap replacing movement doesn't make sense when looking at leap down in battlements, and falling back. My thoughts before being automatic assumption that it replaces normal movement, but it has nothing to actually suggest so. It looks like a special circumstance where you potentially pay the price for advancing.

And when exactly is a DT test taken?

 DeathReaper wrote:
And when exactly is a DT test taken?

As soon as the model enters, leaves or moves within dangerous terrain.

Moving up and down battlements is not considered dangerous terrain - I am doing none of those things.


Is moving up and down a battlements considered dangerous terrain? Is leap even considered a move? Does leap tell you to treat it like dangerous terrain? If you leap down in your opponents shooting phase, how do you resolve that movement - Count as already moved in your next turn?



When is a impact test taken? - When you leap down.
What is a impact test? - A impact test is exactly like a dangerous terrain test.

Is a impact test and a dangerous terrain test the same? - Yes, the tests are the same, the reason you are taking the test is not. Or they would have just wrote, Leaping down is considered dangerous terrain and left it at that.

If it is not movement then a unit of assault marines could jump down 12 inches from the top of a ruined building, then travel another 12 inches to cap an objective on the final turn?

If this is true this will make for some interesting strategy. (This is OT so maybe we should start another thread, in fact I will do that now).


However it seems like the Leaping Down rules do not allow a unit that is falling back to Leap down from a ruined building. so the OP has his answer.

It says you ignore terrain for falling back what's the dispute?

Dat Guy wrote:
It says you ignore terrain for falling back what's the dispute?

There's like 7 pages talking about that, i suggest starting with the first post.

They suffer a penalty the further they leap more likely of death, so even increased distance comes with a heavy price, no saves allowed, bit of a crazy strategy, don't think it's very advantageous in most cases, just is another option (I've never seen Leap used in any game tbh)

7 inches is -2 to dts, so every model has 50% chance of taking a wound with no saves, might as well be called lemming down at that point

 DeathReaper wrote:

Fragile wrote:
It says it is like a DT test. It doesnt say it happens when a DT test does or has the trigger for a DT test.

No, it says it is "exactly like"

so everything that applies to a DT will apply to impact, including happening because you are moving.

So you take Impact tests every time you move through dangerous terrain, as well as a Dangerous Terrain Test ?

Your confusing what a Test is and the trigger for the test.

It seems like the Leaping Down rules do not allow a unit that is falling back to Leap down from a ruined building.

So the OP has his answer.

I started another thread for Leaping Down and if it is movement or not.