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2013/11/13 10:17:47
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
The Necron Codex is really good, and actually gives flavor and personality to a faction that was sorely in need of something other than being "killer robots from outer space". The best thing about Codex: Necron? You can still play Killer Robots from Outer Space. Nothing in the new Codex makes that storyline obsolete, it simply gives people who want to do something else with their Necrons the fluff to do so with.
I don´t think this is right.
da001 wrote: They were not trying to kill everything.
After being defeated by Chaos during the Enslaver Plague, they retreated and let the Enslavers starve to death. But they planted the seeds of their victory. The Necrons meddled with the Old One´s genetic projects and started a guided evolution that would eventually create the nulls. There were also buildings and machines that were supposed to be part of a plan to sever the link between Chaos and the real world, with the Cadian Pylons being the best known example: constructions that stopped the growing of the Eye of Terror.
Once awaken, the Necron started to recollect their weapons. They had Harvester Fleets searching for what they had sown millions of years ago. They captured the humans with the proper genes and turn them into pariahs. They set traps to lure the Callidus assassins to recover the C´tan phase swords. They also lured members of the Adeptus Mechanicus and of the Inquisition to learn more about the sentient species they were going to wage war with.
And I am not even mentioning the countless conspiracy theories about the Deceiver being Chegorah, creating the Tau Ethereals, being the Emperor or the one giving Abbadon Drach´nyen.
Lots of stuff. It is ok if someone prefers the new fluff, but saying that the old was all about "killer robots from outer space" is completely unfair. Compared to the old stuff, the new fluff is quite simplistic.
And the Dragon trapped in mars, captured by the Emperor and fuelling mankind´s technology!
da001 wrote: They were not trying to kill everything.
After being defeated by Chaos during the Enslaver Plague, they retreated and let the Enslavers starve to death. But they planted the seeds of their victory. The Necrons meddled with the Old One´s genetic projects and started a guided evolution that would eventually create the nulls. There were also buildings and machines that were supposed to be part of a plan to sever the link between Chaos and the real world, with the Cadian Pylons being the best known example: constructions that stopped the growing of the Eye of Terror.
Which doesn't make any narrative sense, because the Necrons were already roboted at this point. Why are they worried about the Enslaver plague? Better to posit their conflict with the resurgent Eldar, whom they had already been fighting for unknown numbers of years (possibly millions), as this ties them into the 40K setting more closely (because there is no Codex: Enslavers) and provides a more cohesive narrative. And a race of nulls is great... for that one race. Doesn't do much for the Eldar or the Ork or any of the other races created directly by the Old Ones. In fact, it would seem (even in those days) that the Old Ones got the last laugh, as the Orks continue to be the most-dominant race in the galaxy.
Once awaken, the Necron started to recollect their weapons. They had Harvester Fleets searching for what they had sown millions of years ago. They captured the humans with the proper genes and turn them into pariahs. They set traps to lure the Callidus assassins to recover the C´tan phase swords. They also lured members of the Adeptus Mechanicus and of the Inquisition to learn more about the sentient species they were going to wage war with.
Why? Why would they do this? This doesn't make any sense, because the Chaos that the Necrons knew is not the Chaos that M40 knows. The various Chaos Gods that exist in M40 did not, to the Necron way of reckoning, exist then. Why Necrons would invent a "pariah gene" for a race that they had no way of knowing was going to become anything, while fighting the Enslavers/Eldar, and then also trying to forecast sixty million years into the future to predict the Tau.... no narrative cohesion or even internal logic.
They are still luring those (and other) people to them, that's what Mind Shackle Scarabs are for, and have been depicted as doing in the novels that feature them.
And I am not even mentioning the countless conspiracy theories about the Deceiver being Chegorah, creating the Tau Ethereals, being the Emperor or the one giving Abbadon Drach´nyen.
Fan theories, I don't give weight to those.
Lots of stuff. It is ok if someone prefers the new fluff, but saying that the old was all about "killer robots from outer space" is completely unfair. Compared to the old stuff, the new fluff is quite simplistic.
Nothing you've said here paints them as anything other than Killer Robots from Outer Space. The fluff of the C'Tan is... irrelevant, really, and hasn't really changed. Things simply make more sense now. Case in point... you're a star-eating Space-God. Why would you carry a sword? The hell are you going to do with it? A "C'Tan Phase Sword" doesn't make sense from the internal logic, unless we assume that is what humanity called them, not knowing any different. Why would a C'Tan carry a sword? So it just being an example of Necron future-tech is fine... and that hasn't changed either (and has, in fact, been expanded greatly).
C'Tan were not much different than they are now, then, either. Choose one, that was the thing that drove your Killer Robots from Outer Space to do things. Still can be.
Automatically Appended Next Post: And the Dragon trapped in mars, captured by the Emperor and fuelling mankind´s technology!
Still a theory. Nothing in the recent Codex refutes this (or proves it), other than to imply that it's possibly a Shard, not the full Void Dragon... which makes sense. If the Emperor was able to defeat a god-like C'Tan with an iron sword and a horse, then he could have dueled Horus in his sleep.
More people joined the debate, this is Void__Dragon answer to Psienesis
NL_Cirrus wrote: I would say it depends on who wrights it. If Ward wrights it based on what happened to the last xeno he did that wasn't human like in personality, then it will turn out that they don't really want to eat everything but rather those were just rouge elements of the nid race and the vast majority just want a place to live and to be left alone with their colonies because their home galaxy was destroyed. Or something equally stupid. If anyone else wrights it there probably won't be much change.
It's "write". To "wright" something is to build it. A cartwright is a builder of carts.
The Necron Codex is really good, and actually gives flavor and personality to a faction that was sorely in need of something other than being "killer robots from outer space". The best thing about Codex: Necron? You can still play Killer Robots from Outer Space. Nothing in the new Codex makes that storyline obsolete, it simply gives people who want to do something else with their Necrons the fluff to do so with.
Which doesn't make any narrative sense, because the Necrons were already roboted at this point. Why are they worried about the Enslaver plague? Better to posit their conflict with the resurgent Eldar, whom they had already been fighting for unknown numbers of years (possibly millions), as this ties them into the 40K setting more closely (because there is no Codex: Enslavers) and provides a more cohesive narrative. And a race of nulls is great... for that one race. Doesn't do much for the Eldar or the Ork or any of the other races created directly by the Old Ones. In fact, it would seem (even in those days) that the Old Ones got the last laugh, as the Orks continue to be the most-dominant race in the galaxy.
They worried about the Enslaver plague because it was eating their masters' food.
The Pariah Gene was slowly spreading. The faction operated on the long game. The purpose of those nulls was to be herded back into the Necron army, and used as weapons against Chaos.
Why? Why would they do this? This doesn't make any sense, because the Chaos that the Necrons knew is not the Chaos that M40 knows. The various Chaos Gods that exist in M40 did not, to the Necron way of reckoning, exist then. Why Necrons would invent a "pariah gene" for a race that they had no way of knowing was going to become anything, while fighting the Enslavers/Eldar, and then also trying to forecast sixty million years into the future to predict the Tau.... no narrative cohesion or even internal logic.
The Enslavers are warp-spawned creatures, and their enemies, the Old Ones, and the Old Ones' progeny, all used powers deriving from the Warp. They ensured they had a means to better combat the Warp in the future.
Nothing you've said here paints them as anything other than Killer Robots from Outer Space. The fluff of the C'Tan is... irrelevant, really, and hasn't really changed. Things simply make more sense now. Case in point... you're a star-eating Space-God. Why would you carry a sword? The hell are you going to do with it? A "C'Tan Phase Sword" doesn't make sense from the internal logic, unless we assume that is what humanity called them, not knowing any different. Why would a C'Tan carry a sword? So it just being an example of Necron future-tech is fine... and that hasn't changed either (and has, in fact, been expanded greatly).
A C'tan Phase Blade was made from fractured pieces of their necrodermis. They didn't carry them like swords, and in the fluff, when entering melee, they shapeshift their bodies into whatever form would be best-suited for the task.
C'Tan were not much different than they are now, then, either. Choose one, that was the thing that drove your Killer Robots from Outer Space to do things. Still can be.
Indeed, I can see how you think "Eternal masters of time and space that are behind the Necron menace" and "Shattered space aliens that are enslaved by the Necrons for use as war engines" are "not much different".
Still a theory. Nothing in the recent Codex refutes this (or proves it), other than to imply that it's possibly a Shard, not the full Void Dragon... which makes sense. If the Emperor was able to defeat a god-like C'Tan with an iron sword and a horse, then he could have dueled Horus in his sleep.
It's a theory only in that "C'tan" was not used.
The Void Dragon that fought the Emperor was already starving and weakened. One has to ask how the Necrons managed to shatter the C'tan. when apparently the starving shard of one was able to nearly kill the Emperor, the same man whose might was such that he forced all four Chaos Gods from his son in a single demonstration of his raw psychic power.
You frankly are obvious in your lack of actual knowledge on the third edition fluff. Why must you make sweeping statements about it then?
So I am taking all this to a new thread.
Do you think the Necrons were just "killer robots from outer space"?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 10:18:02
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
2013/11/13 10:34:33
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
Nulls affect any type of psychic race so I can imagine that a whole army of Pariahs would have tipped the balance in favour of the Necron, after all, the Achilles heel of the C'tan seems to be Psykers.
Enslavers aren't Chaotic in nature, they are warp denizens. Although according to Liber Chaotica, when the Eldar requested the assistance of their Gods, Daemons did appear.
I also preferred the previous Necron story in most regards, it's not that different to be fair and with a bit of jumbling up could still fit. I think the C'tan still pulling the strings was better than having shards.
I do disagree with the Dragon only being a shard as the notion of shards wasn't created at the time Mechanicum was written, but that's just my opinion.
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2013/11/13 11:10:00
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
da001 wrote: They were not trying to kill everything.
After being defeated by Chaos during the Enslaver Plague, they retreated and let the Enslavers starve to death. But they planted the seeds of their victory. The Necrons meddled with the Old One´s genetic projects and started a guided evolution that would eventually create the nulls. There were also buildings and machines that were supposed to be part of a plan to sever the link between Chaos and the real world, with the Cadian Pylons being the best known example: constructions that stopped the growing of the Eye of Terror.
Which doesn't make any narrative sense, because the Necrons were already roboted at this point. Why are they worried about the Enslaver plague? Better to posit their conflict with the resurgent Eldar, whom they had already been fighting for unknown numbers of years (possibly millions), as this ties them into the 40K setting more closely (because there is no Codex: Enslavers) and provides a more cohesive narrative. And a race of nulls is great... for that one race. Doesn't do much for the Eldar or the Ork or any of the other races created directly by the Old Ones. In fact, it would seem (even in those days) that the Old Ones got the last laugh, as the Orks continue to be the most-dominant race in the galaxy.
They worried because they were getting defeated. The Necron Lords always had a personality of their own. They were inhuman, but not "mere robots". Of course many things in the old fluff make no sense if they were just robots. This just means that they were not.
Exchanging the Enslavers for the Eldar is also a bad move. The Eldar being moved 60 million years into the past makes absolutely no sense. Their empire lasted 60 million years!!?? Talk about total lack of sense of scale here.
And why didn´t they destroy the Necrons while they were weak?. They got sixty million years to do it. In the Enslavers case, the answer is easy: they are not particularly intelligent parasites, lacking the technology to track the Necrons. It made sense to hide until they starved.
And the loss of a full race would be in itself a bad thing. This setting has lots of interesting, diverse stuff, yet this has no real representation in the game, which is marines against marines and more marines with the occasional humanoid xeno. I would love to see a Codex: Enslavers, and retconning nearly out of existence a xeno breed of such power and significance shouldn´t be seen as something good for the setting.
Once awaken, the Necron started to recollect their weapons. They had Harvester Fleets searching for what they had sown millions of years ago. They captured the humans with the proper genes and turn them into pariahs. They set traps to lure the Callidus assassins to recover the C´tan phase swords. They also lured members of the Adeptus Mechanicus and of the Inquisition to learn more about the sentient species they were going to wage war with.
Why? Why would they do this? This doesn't make any sense, because the Chaos that the Necrons knew is not the Chaos that M40 knows. The various Chaos Gods that exist in M40 did not, to the Necron way of reckoning, exist then. Why Necrons would invent a "pariah gene" for a race that they had no way of knowing was going to become anything, while fighting the Enslavers/Eldar, and then also trying to forecast sixty million years into the future to predict the Tau.... no narrative cohesion or even internal logic.
They are fighting Chaos itself. The Primordial Annihilator. It has changed some names, but it is still the same thing. And I think it works fine with the Necron way of thinking. And why “forecast the Tau”? There were some hints that the Tau Ethereals were Tau modified by the C´tan, but that´s all.
They are still luring those (and other) people to them, that's what Mind Shackle Scarabs are for, and have been depicted as doing in the novels that feature them.
You cannot seriously compare the C´tan cults, the Deceiver´s infinite schemes and Necrons manipulating inquisitors or imperial governors with the use of a single weapon in combat. The 3rd edition Codex was infinitely richer in this regard.
And I am not even mentioning the countless conspiracy theories about the Deceiver being Chegorah, creating the Tau Ethereals, being the Emperor or the one giving Abbadon Drach´nyen.
Fan theories, I don't give weight to those.
The fact that so many fan theories were ripe is in itself a sign of how interesting was the old background. Now people wonder who Trazin has imprisioned… Before we had potential ground-breaking revelations that would shatter the setting.
Lots of stuff. It is ok if someone prefers the new fluff, but saying that the old was all about "killer robots from outer space" is completely unfair. Compared to the old stuff, the new fluff is quite simplistic.
Nothing you've said here paints them as anything other than Killer Robots from Outer Space. The fluff of the C'Tan is... irrelevant, really, and hasn't really changed. Things simply make more sense now. Case in point... you're a star-eating Space-God. Why would you carry a sword? The hell are you going to do with it? A "C'Tan Phase Sword" doesn't make sense from the internal logic, unless we assume that is what humanity called them, not knowing any different. Why would a C'Tan carry a sword? So it just being an example of Necron future-tech is fine... and that hasn't changed either (and has, in fact, been expanded greatly).
The fluff on the C´tan has been radically changed: from godlike beings competing with the Chaos Gods that were instrumental in the setting to pokemons with no relevance at all. They were as powerful as a Chaos God and now they cannot compete with a Riptide.
And the C´tan (if it was a C´tan) wasn´t carrying a sword. He lured the assassin to get the sword, to which he spoke as if it was a sentient being as he absorbed it into itself.
And the Dragon trapped in mars, captured by the Emperor and fuelling mankind´s technology!
Still a theory. Nothing in the recent Codex refutes this (or proves it), other than to imply that it's possibly a Shard, not the full Void Dragon... which makes sense. If the Emperor was able to defeat a god-like C'Tan with an iron sword and a horse, then he could have dueled Horus in his sleep.
Why so? Horus was his son and he was bolstered by something exceedingly rare: the four more powerful Chaos Gods acting together. And the Void Dragon was supposed to be weakened.
The Emperor having problems to defeat a current C´tan shard with his bare hands would be unbelievable. Whatever the Emperor is, he is at least as powerful (in some senses) as a Chaos God.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 11:57:03
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
2013/11/13 12:00:37
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
Yes, they were.
And it was glorious.
That's not to say they were mindlessly slaughtering whatever they found, but they were certainly far more evil than Wardcrons. And therefore far cooler.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 12:03:56
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
2022/01/04 11:08:21
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
When did the Necrons not mindlessly slaughter whatever they found? The only times I can think of them not going omnicidal on a living thing was when they wanted to kidnap it or shove a probe up its ass.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 12:09:21
2013/11/13 12:29:25
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
Generally, when they wanted to kidnap it or shove a probe up it's ass
What I'm saying is that it wasn't just mindless slaughter... there was some thought to it. For example, making Pariahs.
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
2013/11/13 12:31:15
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
About the Void Dragon, wasn't it hinted that it escaped the protective care of whatever Ward was there in "Mechanicum"?
I could have sworn that the whole point of the (can't remember her name)'s roll was to ascend to keep the Dragon locked on Mars away from the prying eyes of the Mechanicus?
Hell, it even goes into a "vision" (if I recall, it's been a while since I've read it), that shows the Emperor, as stated before, fighting a "dragon" with a sword in armor on a horse.
I could be wrong, feel free to chime in and correct me. I'm enjoying this discussion, because I find the Necron's to be one of the most fascinating species in the Grim Dark.
On a side note, in every case in which they appear in BL novels, they have no regard to anything living. They utterly destroyed the Word Bearers when they were hunting for their mysterious Orb, and made Captain Sicarius look like a wimp on Damnos.
2nd Comapny. 6000+ points and counting! 2000+ points
2013/11/13 12:33:52
Subject: Re:Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
BlaxicanX wrote: When did the Necrons not mindlessly slaughter whatever they found? The only times I can think of them not going omnicidal on a living thing was when they wanted to kidnap it or shove a probe up its ass.
Well, we have that time when a Necron Lord manipulated inquisitors and members of the Adeptus Mechanicus to gather information about sentient species. And that time when a Necron "something" disguised as an Imperial Governor for years in order to lure an imperial assassin. And then we have Necrons creating heretical cults inside the Mechanicus. And what about enslaving humans and turning them into Pariahs? Actually, they were more about enslaving.
Humans were like ants to them. But they weren´t "mindlessly slaughtering" humans. There was a plan.
And why didn´t they destroy the Necrons while they were weak?.
They were too busy fighting the Enslavers maybe?
That could be cool... but still doesn´t make sense. They were doing that for 60 million years? The scale of time invalidates the "the Eldar did it" solution.
liquidjoshi wrote: they were certainly far more evil than Wardcrons. And therefore far cooler.
Agreed
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
2013/11/13 13:03:33
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
Well the Necrons went into hiding didn't they, so by the time the Eldar had finished forcing the Enlsavers back to the Warp the Necrons had vanished, or so it seemed ... DUN DUN DUUUUUHHHHH
No pity, no remorse, no shoes
2013/11/13 13:09:39
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
2013/11/13 13:11:45
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
For so few words it emcopasses most of my feelings on the newcrons.
As far as the oldcrons go. they were somewhat different from nids. Nids are more like a virus, simple, to the point and wipe out everything. The oldcrons (atleast C'Tan) very much had a vested interest in keeping life in the galaxy (farming food, growing weapons) as well as defending themselves from there main weakness, the warp.
2013/11/13 13:24:43
Subject: Re:Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
I don't recall the C'tan losing to the Enslavers being stated in the old background. It always seemed more that the Enslavers were just killing off all their food. Never made sense to me why they didn't just finish the Great Work and seal off the Warp when their enemies were effectively neutralised. Nor why the Deceiver didn't dominate the setting in 40K when he'd had millennia to run rampant. Considering his supposed power he shouldn't need to just operate with subtlety. He could have just destroyed the Blackstone Fortresses himself and topple the Imperium by draining Terra's sun. When everyone else had their gods unable to exercise their fully power in the Materium the Necrons should have dominated the galaxy in the timespan they had but instead did nothing much other than play tricks.
da001 wrote:And I am not even mentioning the countless conspiracy theories about the Deceiver being Chegorah, creating the Tau Ethereals, being the Emperor or the one giving Abbadon Drach´nyen.
Only two of these would be remotely plausible (the Ethereals and the sword). The Deceiver giving Abaddon his sword cheapens that character and makes the most powerful Chaos force the pawn of another faction. I don't understand why the Deceiver liked Chaos so much anyway. You'd think the most Psychically potent force in the galaxy (now that the Eldar are restricted) would be more of a concern to the C'tan but instead it's apparently beneficial to help them along.
That could be cool... but still doesn´t make sense. They were doing that for 60 million years?
They wouldn't have been fighting them for that long but it could have distracted the Eldar while the Necrons went into stasis. Identifying Tomb Worlds could well have been a long and arduous process and without knowing where they were it would have taken considerable resources. Not to mention it's entirely possible that they didn't want to resume a war with the faction which had just destroyed their creators. It's unlikely that they knew how weakened the Necrons were or that they'd shattered the C'tan.
2013/11/13 13:55:03
Subject: Re:Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: I don't recall the C'tan losing to the Enslavers being stated in the old background. It always seemed more that the Enslavers were just killing off all their food. Never made sense to me why they didn't just finish the Great Work and seal off the Warp when their enemies were effectively neutralised.
The Necrons were unable to stop the Enslavers. I am counting that as a defeat. It is in page 26, but I don´t have an English Codex right know. A translation would be like: they "flew" from them. "Apocaliptic" and "catastrophic" are used to describe the Enslaver Plague. They "found a solution" to "escape" from them. Also, they didn´t finish the Great Work and seal off the Warp because of this. They were escaping. They hid. For millions of years. The Great Work was interrupted.
Nor why the Deceiver didn't dominate the setting in 40K when he'd had millennia to run rampant. Considering his supposed power he shouldn't need to just operate with subtlety. He could have just destroyed the Blackstone Fortresses himself and topple the Imperium by draining Terra's sun. When everyone else had their gods unable to exercise their fully power in the Materium the Necrons should have dominated the galaxy in the timespan they had but instead did nothing much other than play tricks.
He was sleeping. It is said in page 26 too that the C´tan slept for millions of years, and only two have awaken.Also I am not sure about the amount of power the C´tan have after waking up. They are clearly not yet at god-like level.
That could be cool... but still doesn´t make sense. They were doing that for 60 million years?
They wouldn't have been fighting them for that long but it could have distracted the Eldar while the Necrons went into stasis. Identifying Tomb Worlds could well have been a long and arduous process and without knowing where they were it would have taken considerable resources. Not to mention it's entirely possible that they didn't want to resume a war with the faction which had just destroyed their creators. It's unlikely that they knew how weakened the Necrons were or that they'd shattered the C'tan.
Ok I get it.
Still, nothing of the like is said in the last Codex. The writer needed a reason for the Necrons to hide and for some reason the Enslavers were retconned. So he took a 40k army from 60 million years in the future and used it. Not a single sentence is given to turn this nonsensical assertion into something acceptable. We can talk about how this madness can be understood, but at least is really, really lazy writing.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
2013/11/13 14:19:24
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
Old Crons were Cthulhu Robots. They heralded the end of life. They would rise, harvest and then sleep. They were another death knell for the Eldar.
They didn't ally with anybody.
They were quite capable of superluminal speeds.
They didn't rely on Warp travel.
They were shadows of their former selves in mechanical bodies. Only the Lords, and to a lesser extent Immortals/Destroyers, had a limited grasp of what they once were. They were hatred brought to life.
The two things I wish they had kept were the Superluminal travel and the Four C'tan, with the Dragon on Mars. Everything else in the new codex is fine, I just wish they had kept those two things. Necrons have been massively downgraded in terms of galactic threat.
Oh and one last thing I wish had been kept in, no allying with anybody ever.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: I miss the Oldcrons, soooooo much. Newcrons are just Tomb Kings in space, which annoys me.
And the old ones are just Tyranids in Metal Bodies, with the only interesting things being the C'tan..Which were Mary Sue Villains.
Well, we have that time when a Necron Lord manipulated inquisitors and members of the Adeptus Mechanicus to gather information about sentient species. And that time when a Necron "something" disguised as an Imperial Governor for years in order to lure an imperial assassin. And then we have Necrons creating heretical cults inside the Mechanicus. And what about enslaving humans and turning them into Pariahs? Actually, they were more about enslaving.
Humans were like ants to them. But they weren´t "mindlessly slaughtering" humans. There was a plan.
The funny thing is, that's not Necrons.
That's all C'tan, the Deceiver as the Governor, there was no plan. They just want to cut off the warp and be complete from it, which will kill everything within the galaxy anyways. The Necrons create and do nothing, simple followers of their 'Synapse' C'tans, who order and use them to move things along, and who will simply go back to feeding once done with their task against chaos.
Everyone seems to attribute it to Necrons, when it's all C'tan. Codex: C'tans would've been a more interesting idea to say the least..
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/11/13 15:43:25
2013/11/13 17:16:53
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
Necron Lords had a personality of their own. It was a Necron Lord who manipulated the Inquisition, not a C´tan. Not all Necron forces are commanded by C´tans.
Which means that the same reasoning can be applied to all Chaos forces, with Chaos Gods doing everything, and to the Tyranids (Hive Mind).
And there is a plan, you are saying that it is "C´tan´s plan" and not "Necrons´ plan". But it is not mindless killing.
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
2013/11/13 17:46:40
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
da001 wrote: Necron Lords had a personality of their own. It was a Necron Lord who manipulated the Inquisition, not a C´tan. Not all Necron forces are commanded by C´tans.
Which means that the same reasoning can be applied to all Chaos forces, with Chaos Gods doing everything, and to the Tyranids (Hive Mind).
And there is a plan, you are saying that it is "C´tan´s plan" and not "Necrons´ plan". But it is not mindless killing.
Except the Chaos Forces fight to get the attention of the chaos gods, they aren't simple machines programmed by the C'tan to get them more food, the chaos forces can think outside of what was given to them.
And yes the Hive Mind does everything...Which is why it's a Hive Mind and why the Tyranids are genetically modified and manufactured in an evolutionary process.
Much like the C'tan wanted of the Necrons, mindless machines that'll do their bidding in time.
2013/11/13 17:57:22
Subject: Re:Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
Forgive the necron noobiness here but I was under the impression that the necrons now controlled the C'Tan? After the war in heaven didn't they shoot the living hell out of them and put the shards in tesseract vaults letting them out to stretch their legs once in a while?
2013/11/13 18:02:12
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
The Eldar and the Ork have always been contemporaries of the Necrons, as they have always been the two "biggest" races created by the Old Ones (who "seeded the galaxy with life"... they are the Rakata of 40K). That neither of these two races apparently did anything during the War in Heaven was an omission of glaring inconsistency. Why would the favored children of the Old Ones *not* fight the Necrons and the C'Tan?
That is why the Eldar are now (or, rather, still... they were never, ever a "young race" in 40K) a sixty-plus million year old empire of space-elves. They were contemporaries of the Necron, as were the Krork.
Still, nothing of the like is said in the last Codex. The writer needed a reason for the Necrons to hide and for some reason the Enslavers were retconned. So he took a 40k army from 60 million years in the future and used it. Not a single sentence is given to turn this nonsensical assertion into something acceptable. We can talk about how this madness can be understood, but at least is really, really lazy writing.
Read James Swallow's Hammer and Anvil and Faith and Fire.
MSS are only a battlefield weapon on the tabletop (like every other weapon presented in the Codices) in the fluff of the Necrons it is so much more.
Necron Lords had a personality of their own. It was a Necron Lord who manipulated the Inquisition, not a C´tan. Not all Necron forces are commanded by C´tans.
Right. There is now. There wasn't then. Back then, it was A C'Tan with Its Armies of Killer Robots from Outer Space.
Back then it was "Necron Tomb World awakens. Necrons find living things. Necrons harvest all living things, in a program they call The Red Harvest (Necrons aren't a poetic race). Necrons go back to sleep. More living things return to find planet utterly lifeless, wonder WTF just happened here. Rinse, repeat. Robo-mustache twirling commences."
As far as C'Tan went? There were more than just the Void Dragon and the Deceiver. We also had Nightbringer, who was (and continues to be) the source of Grim Reaper symbolism throughout every sentient species in the galaxy. We had Llandu'gor, who gave us the Flayer Virus and the Flayed Ones. There was the Outsider, who was apparently a Crazy C'Tan. There was all those that they gave names to, but never any details (ran out of time writing the Codex? Intended future supplement never published? Who knows!) Iash'uddra, Kalugura, Og'driada, Yggra'nya and Nyadra'zatha... who somehow gave the Necrons the keys to the Webway, even though the C'Tan were completely physical-reality creatures... how the star-gods did anything with the Warp was a narrative conundrum that has yet to be resolved, incidentally, though further details on the War in Heaven make more sense with 5E Codex:Necrons... and, also, whether or not the C'Tan ever actually fought the Old Ones is cast into question, for the C'Tan that mentions this is the Deceiver. Which, again, makes sense. Why would they care? They are star-eating space-vampires.
Enslavers are still around, just as a background xeno-creature. They have a lot more going on in the various 40KRPGs and other, non-wargame sources. Makes sense. If you had a badass army like the Necrons (pre-5E) who got their asses kicked by the Enslavers, why would you not have an Enslaver product line to return to challenge the Necrons, since no one else in the galaxy apparently could?
GW didn't go that route, though, there was no narrative challenge to the Necrons. The Enslavers never returned to the game, as far as the tabletop was concerned, and became something of a MacGuffin. Narratively, this doesn't make sense.
So, to continue with the theme of every main faction having a diametric opposite, the Necrons and the Eldar were paired off against one another. Marines vs CSM (boilerplate Order vs Chaos, the posterboy armies of the setting), Necrons vs Eldar (ancient tech army vs ancient magic army), IG vs Orks (Human Horde vs Alien Horde). Other, more specialized factions (Tau, SOB, Daemons, etc) break from these narrative themes, but that's fine, that's why these armies are/were specialized, niche armies.
And for a race that has consistently been described as "ancient", the Eldar make the most sense as the bitter foes of the Necrons. It provides narrative continuity to the setting, rather than (again) having one army that got its ass kicked by another army return to the game, but the army that kicked its ass doesn't... if there had been an Enslaver product line, I would think differently, but there isn't, and probably never will be.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2013/11/13 19:41:29
Subject: Re:Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
I agree with Psienesis on the broader issue. The Studio invented the Necrons (using the old Chaos Android models as a base look and a snippet from Codex Imperialis about the C'tan) but struggled so much to work out what the "Killer Robots from Outer Space" actually were and would do that they went and created the Tau in the meantime! Then they came back to the Necrons who were still just "Killer Robots from Outer Space" but this time they were driven by the commands of their overlords the C'tan. Xenology did not introduce a Necron with personality until several years later.
Personally my issue with the 3rd Edition Codex is the whole 'the Old Ones made everyone' garbage. I'm glad the new Codex doesn't reiterate the guff about the Krork as that one little tiny snippet of information single-handedly ruined decades of incredibly detailed Ork background at a stroke. I said once on these boards some years before the latest Ork Codex came out how it seemed the Studio were moving away from 'the Old Ones done it' by reintroducing the original Ork background material with the Enslaver Plague as just a possibility and not actualité.
Could the Studio have done more to keep the mindless, lethal terminator robots? I reckon they could have although I don't mind the newer personality included Necrons but let's face it, the Studio couldn't, for whatever reason, come up with some decent terminator-robots background and so made the Necrons Tomb Kings in Space instead. Better than going the Squat route.
Be Pure!
Be Vigilant!
BEHAVE!
Show me your god and I'll send you a warhead because my god's bigger than your god.
2013/11/13 20:14:41
Subject: Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
The best part about the most-recent Codex: Necrons is that it allows one to play an OldCron Army, if you choose to. It also opens up a bunch of options for other people to play a different flavor of Necrons, which is, perhaps, the biggest strength to its fluff.
You could, for example, replicate an OldCron Army by putting your C'Tan Shard in the back, surrounded by an Honor Guard of Lychguard or Destroyers, and then arrange your forces before it. You could model your C'Tan Shard being borne on a litter carried by Necron Warriors or your Necron Lord and its Royal Court. I mean, you could go crazy with the modeling projects to represent an Oldcron army with the C'Tan still the boss... or you could do something totally different, now that you have the options in the Codex to do so.
From the other thread, a comment was made about C'Tan phase swords being shards of their necrodermis...
... the original write-up for the Phase Sword credits the C'Tan with having built them. Which doesn't jive with them being part of its necrodermis shell (which they didn't build), and also doesn't explain why that bit of necrodermis can be that powerful while a Warrior can't just punch your Baneblade apart with his necrodermis hands. Necrodermis is Necrodermis.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2013/11/13 20:45:04
Subject: Re:Were the Necrons just "killer robots" in 3rd edition?
ZebioLizard2 wrote: And yes the Hive Mind does everything...Which is why it's a Hive Mind and why the Tyranids are genetically modified and manufactured in an evolutionary process.
Much like the C'tan wanted of the Necrons, mindless machines that'll do their bidding in time.
No. Necron Lords had a personality of their own. It was a Necron Lord who manipulated the Inquisition, not a C´tan. Necron Lords were not mindless machines. And this has not changed. It is the same in 6th edition, all basic Necrons are mindless machines, and the Necron Lords have a personality. True, they obeyed the C´tan, but it was not mindless slavery. They were intelligent, far more than the average human.
Page 24 3rd edition Codex. The more powerful of the Necrontyr retained their intellect.
Chaos Rising wrote: Forgive the necron noobiness here but I was under the impression that the necrons now controlled the C'Tan? After the war in heaven didn't they shoot the living hell out of them and put the shards in tesseract vaults letting them out to stretch their legs once in a while?
The Necron background suffered many, many radical changes in 2011 (5th edition). For instance, the C´tan were like gods to the Necrons, and in 5th edition they suddenly turned their servants. We had many stories about the C´tan, including stuff like one of them being the entity worshipped as the Omnissiah by the Adeptus Mechanicus, and one of them having lost his sanity, trapped in an artificial world at the edge of the galaxy, a point Tyranid fleets avoided. And many more. All these stories vanished in the new Codex.
Psienesis wrote: The Eldar and the Ork have always been contemporaries of the Necrons, as they have always been the two "biggest" races created by the Old Ones (who "seeded the galaxy with life"... they are the Rakata of 40K). That neither of these two races apparently did anything during the War in Heaven was an omission of glaring inconsistency. Why would the favored children of the Old Ones *not* fight the Necrons and the C'Tan?
The "first Eldar" and Krorks fought... and were defeated. First by the Necrons, and then came the "apocaliptic", "catastrophic" Enslaver Plague.
Necron Lords had a personality of their own. It was a Necron Lord who manipulated the Inquisition, not a C´tan. Not all Necron forces are commanded by C´tans.
Right. There is now. There wasn't then. Back then, it was A C'Tan with Its Armies of Killer Robots from Outer Space.
You are usually right but I think you are wrong in this one. I am talking about a background book called Xenology, written four years after the 3rd edition (2002 -> 2006). It has a Necron Lord manipulating inquisitors and members of the Mechanicum, no C´tan involved. It was intelligent and operated alone. I just read again the final part, and the "unknown entity" says: "our master is a most talented deceiver"... also it speaks about its kind: "Most are mindless, pure, undistracted by personality. But there are those of us who remember. Lords and Ladies of another age, converted and purified but not cleansed of memory. I remember the frailty of emotion, the weakness of the flesh, the imperfection of mortality". THAT is the way a Necron Lord (or Lady) should talk, instead of sending love letters to inquisitors.
And it stands to logic that most operations were conducted by Necron Lords. How could it be otherwise? There were only TWO C´tan awake, and Necrons were a galaxy-spanning threat.
Enslavers are still around, just as a background xeno-creature. They have a lot more going on in the various 40KRPGs and other, non-wargame sources. Makes sense. If you had a badass army like the Necrons (pre-5E) who got their asses kicked by the Enslavers, why would you not have an Enslaver product line to return to challenge the Necrons, since no one else in the galaxy apparently could?
GW didn't go that route, though, there was no narrative challenge to the Necrons. The Enslavers never returned to the game, as far as the tabletop was concerned, and became something of a MacGuffin. Narratively, this doesn't make sense.
Which is what I most dislike of the new Codex. They had a badass army, and they scratched off the most important part of their background. There were references to Enslavers all over the place. There are rules for them in Rogue Trader. They were (and still are) an important part of the background. With a single line Ward had them joined to an ever growing list: Squats, Zoats, Slann, Lost and the Damned, Genestealer Cults, Arbites, Hurd, Exodites... Incredibly cool and awesome armies still in the background but only as a footnote. It is a pity.
So, to continue with the theme of every main faction having a diametric opposite, the Necrons and the Eldar were paired off against one another. Marines vs CSM (boilerplate Order vs Chaos, the posterboy armies of the setting), Necrons vs Eldar (ancient tech army vs ancient magic army), IG vs Orks (Human Horde vs Alien Horde). Other, more specialized factions (Tau, SOB, Daemons, etc) break from these narrative themes, but that's fine, that's why these armies are/were specialized, niche armies.
And for a race that has consistently been described as "ancient", the Eldar make the most sense as the bitter foes of the Necrons. It provides narrative continuity to the setting, rather than (again) having one army that got its ass kicked by another army return to the game, but the army that kicked its ass doesn't... if there had been an Enslaver product line, I would think differently, but there isn't, and probably never will be.
Still, it is a simplification, of something that could have been brilliant. And more complex.
Which is my point: the new Necron Codex is far simpler, far less ambitious than the previous. It has new units, but the background has lost many things, sometimes making sense, sometimes without a proper explanation. And I don´t think we have won anything in return: the Tomb King feeling was already there, ready for expansion. Thus, describing the older Codex as "just killer robots" is unfair. The Necrons are still killer robots, and they have a simplified background. They lost the Terminator side, the Saberhagen (the Berserker series) side, the Lovecraft side, and stayed with the TK side. Expanded, true, but still a simplification.
As far as C'Tan went? There were more than just the Void Dragon and the Deceiver. We also had Nightbringer, who was (and continues to be) the source of Grim Reaper symbolism throughout every sentient species in the galaxy. We had Llandu'gor, who gave us the Flayer Virus and the Flayed Ones. There was the Outsider, who was apparently a Crazy C'Tan. There was all those that they gave names to, but never any details (ran out of time writing the Codex? Intended future supplement never published? Who knows!) Iash'uddra, Kalugura, Og'driada, Yggra'nya and Nyadra'zatha... who somehow gave the Necrons the keys to the Webway, even though the C'Tan were completely physical-reality creatures... how the star-gods did anything with the Warp was a narrative conundrum that has yet to be resolved, incidentally, though further details on the War in Heaven make more sense with 5E Codex:Necrons... and, also, whether or not the C'Tan ever actually fought the Old Ones is cast into question, for the C'Tan that mentions this is the Deceiver. Which, again, makes sense. Why would they care? They are star-eating space-vampires.
I think you are mixing old fluff and new fluff here. I will happily admit that the existence of many C´tan (instead of just four) is a good change. However, all that C´tans are currently some sort of Pokemon, while the old C´tan were like this:
Spoiler:
(Not GW art, but I think it conveys what a C´tan was supposed to be)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: The best part about the most-recent Codex: Necrons is that it allows one to play an OldCron Army, if you choose to.
From a game perspective. The new Codex is far better than the old in this regard: new units, many options, a distinctive feeling... But it is the background we are talking about here.
From the other thread, a comment was made about C'Tan phase swords being shards of their necrodermis...
... the original write-up for the Phase Sword credits the C'Tan with having built them. Which doesn't jive with them being part of its necrodermis shell (which they didn't build), and also doesn't explain why that bit of necrodermis can be that powerful while a Warrior can't just punch your Baneblade apart with his necrodermis hands. Necrodermis is Necrodermis.
As usual, I am assuming that this is just the Imperium not knowing what they are talking about. The C´tan in Codex Necrons absorbed it and called it his son, implying that it was somehow a sentient creature. Living metal. It was really odd, and left completely unexplained. The old background was weird... but more complex than the current one.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/13 21:12:07
‘Your warriors will stand down and withdraw, Curze. That is an order, not a request. (…) When this campaign is won, you and I will have words’
Rogal Dorn, just before taking the beating of his life.
from The Dark King, by Graham McNeill.
2nd Comapny. 6000+ points and counting! 
2000+ points 
I think you are mixing old fluff and new fluff here. I will happily admit that the existence of many C´tan (instead of just four) is a good change. However, all that C´tans are currently some sort of Pokemon, while the old C´tan were like this:
