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So I've run into a slight rut. I've wanted to enter into the world of Roleplaying games for some time now. Recently, I got my hands upon Only War. I want to expand to Pathfinder at some point as well, however my group of friends that I hang out with often all have somehow ended up enjoying 40k. Rather than go about having to establish an entire world to both them and myself, I would rather opt for something we all know quite a bit about. It seems as though I will be the individual that must gm the game as I am capable of gathering the required books and willing to spend my time to set up stories.

I tried to set up a story for Only War, yet I realized I simply couldn't create a ONLY WAR game of pitched combat. My interests lie more upon creating a planet of subterfuge and betrayal and sending them into such a scenario where it is moer of an elite ops to figure out problems occasionally breaking out into skirmishes. This sounds far more like DH and have discovered that they also would prefer a more detective/noir gaming experience. The question becomes, should I opt for DH, get the beta of DHII, or simply wait until DHII comes out?

DH2 will be DH1 with OW rules. So ... if you have OW, you can probably glean enough converted info from the interwebz to not need DH2 as/when.

But there is pretty well no reason for your to buy DH1.

Manchu wrote:
DH2 will be DH1 with OW rules. So ... if you have OW, you can probably glean enough converted info from the interwebz to not need DH2 as/when.

But there is pretty well no reason for your to buy DH1.

Thanks Manchu!

One other thing -- if you buy the beta, they give you that much off your eventual purchase of the final book. But you can only buy it from them, FFG. So if you want the DH2 beta right now, you can get that and it will go to your eventual purchase -- BUT you don't get online retailer discount price (e.g., Miniature Market) or get to buy it from your LGS. Also FFG has pretty steep S&H. All depends on your priorities.

Manchu wrote:
One other thing -- if you buy the beta, they give you that much off your eventual purchase of the final book. But you can only buy it from them, FFG. So if you want the DH2 beta right now, you can get that and it will go to your eventual purchase -- BUT you don't get online retailer discount price (e.g., Miniature Market) or get to buy it from your LGS. Also FFG has pretty steep S&H. All depends on your priorities.

Had a feeling the beta would only work for the direct purchase. I suppose I'll use OW and add DH2 when it is officially released at my LGS in part to have a book on inquisitors and in part to support the shop. Didn't know about the S&H. Anyways, thank you very much for all of the help.

There is apparently a wealth of net resources concerning OW conversion of DH material. I haven't delved into it myself but some googling around will probably yield meaty results.

Dark Heresy 1.0 is there. It has numerous expansions and a whole sector developed. It's a complete package (so to speak), with books covering all manner of topics and expanding upon many things right from the core rulebook. It's rules need updating (but that's what DH2.0 will do), but right now everything is there and ready to use.

Manchu wrote:
But there is pretty well no reason for your to buy DH1.

I can think of about 18 different reasons.

Eh, I just meant mechanics. But then again, you could get enough sense of the background to run DH from BL novels and certain of the codices. Plus, we'll soon have a brand new sector.

It's a tricky question. Each of the systems will have their own pros and cons all depending on the individual gamer.

DH1 is a classic. It has its issues and I really prefer OW rules, but although you could (in theory) easily run a game of Dark Heresy using Only War, creating the necessary houserules would still take up a lot of time, especially for a new GM. So I suppose I'd rather advice just getting the Dark Heresy core rulebook and the Inquisitor's Handbook. Some of the supplements are good, too, but in my experience, the newer they get, the more outrageous they are. There's a distinct power creep ever since the license shifted from Black Industries to the FFG design team, and personally I really don't like the different ideas they've shoehorned into the game with some later books.

DH2 is like the Big Unknown right now. Maybe it'll be good, but that's a big Maybe. It will feature a considerable rewrite of the rules, and it will be very different from Only War, too. For example, the new Injury mechanics from the Beta just don't sit well with me, and this is an area where I'd just prefer Only War. On the other hand, character creation at least sounds interesting, and they've come up with some new ideas for investigation. Time will tell. I've learned to become sceptical after what has happened to DH1, but I'm keeping my eyes open.

Perhaps stop by their forums and get an impression of what people are talking about?

Lynata, FFG scrapped everything original about DH2 and has put out a new Beta which is just OW in an inquisitor's trench coat.

Really, they ditched that weird injury mechanic? I'm actually getting my hopes up again...

Nothing against originality, but I'd rather they would have done something about the abysmal effect of Toughness Bonus, yet for some unfathomable reason that one wasn't touched at all.

Hmmmm.... much to think about. In all seriousness, thank you everybody. I'll spend some more time to think about it but I'm glad to actually understand the merits of each choice.

Get DH1 the book is there, the extras are there, it got everything you need and it is way simpler than OW (less page flipping when spending XP)

I bought it when it came out, ran it twice (2nd campaing still ongoing) and it sutis my needs well, from combat to investigation to RP to whatever; not to mention it is compatible with every other 40k game system that came afterward.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:
it is compatible with every other 40k game system that came afterward

"Compatible" ... sure, technically.

Yes they are.

Yet again I'm one of those 'crazy people' who understood that a coma seperates items in a lists of things..so to each it's own, but I used things from RT, DW and OW in my DH campaign with no problem.

and that was certain things, the amount of extra books DH got cover most, if not all, bases.

Ehh, as a player in some of your campaigns, I'm not sure I'd agree.

At the end of the day, the books are using different rules, and in many cases even different profiles for the same gun or the same NPC.

It's fine because the games each have a different focus on a different narrative style. Dark Heresy is for the creepy stuff, so there's rules for corruption and insanity that do not exist in Heroic Deathwatch, which instead features Squad Modes and Demeanours, which are missing from Black Crusade which instead has more mutations, etc pp.

There exists a certain degree of "compatibility" because all the games are built on the same basic d100 engine, but personally, in most cases I would not simply port something from one game over into another without tweaking it. Even FFG did so; apparently they felt the need to acknowledge the differences, even though they continue to advertise intercompatibility as a feature of their product.

Well, most items are either the same or jsut another pattern; the plasma gun for exmaple in DH is a 'normal' one while the one in Rt is a military grade pattern. The boltgun is also the same being the 'civilian' model and in RT it is some offshoot old Sororitas pattern (IIRC).

Granted I didn't fully read DW or BC, but I think the corruption/insanity mechanics are there as well, just that the inner working of them is not the same (since marines are conditionned to be 'without fear' while cultitsts may be less shocked seeing a tentacle for an arm for the 50th time)
I sure know they are present in RT and OW and are almost similar, short of a few differences in the tables.

The "different pattern" thing works sometimes, but not always. Apart from the imho rather silly idea of "non-military plasma guns", there are actually cases where either no pattern was named and the respective gun thus instead represents a "standard weapon", or even where a weapon of the same pattern has different profiles in different books.

Examples of these including DH's Angelus boltgun which, as per its description, fires the very same ammunition used in Marine bolters, yet it's only 2d10 rather than 1d10+9. Or any and all las firearms in Only War now having charge sliders, since the fans lobbied for it on the forums and FFG caved in. The latter is particularly funny because for once, FFG's original rules attempted to replicate GW's own fluff on the subject. But I guess the Black Library Uplifting Primer is more popular.

Corruption in Deathwatch is ... simply non-existent. You can track it, but effects have been wiped out because that game is all about SPESS MEHREENS being the Big Damn Heroes, so Corruption effects only apply to their minions.
Insanity on the other hand has a unique special rule that triggers the respective Primarch's Curse, iirc.

Psychic powers have also been mentioned to be notably different from game to game, both due to narrative differences as well as because the system has simply evolved over time.

Rate of Fire bonuses, CSM having no Sneak penalty in BC, ... once you start looking you're bound to discover a lot of differences, even though the majority of the core rules may be copypasta.

When you then consider that enemies and equipment are or should be always balanced individually for that one specific game where they are actually listed, it may become apparent that simply porting one over into another game would then mess with this balance intended by the original designers (as wonky as it may sometimes seem). For example, throwing a Genestealer from the Deathwatch book at a DH group may result in a hilariously tough fight, even if that group may have had little problem with DH's Genestealer version.

Manchu wrote:
Lynata, FFG scrapped everything original about DH2 and has put out a new Beta which is just OW in an inquisitor's trench coat.

Not even slightly true.

They removed a clunky and overcomplicated combat system (and the armoury that went with it) to return it to a system compatible with their other 4 games. The character creation and so on remain the same as they were in the original Beta.

Manchu wrote:
"Compatible" ... sure, technically.

No, not technically. Actually.

The games all use the same rule base and have iterative changes between each successive line. They are compatible. To claim otherwise would be dishonest.

 Lynata wrote:
Corruption in Deathwatch is ... simply non-existent. You can track it, but effects have been wiped out because that game is all about SPESS MEHREENS being the Big Damn Heroes, so Corruption effects only apply to their minions.
Insanity on the other hand has a unique special rule that triggers the respective Primarch's Curse, iirc.

So?

 Lynata wrote:
Psychic powers have also been mentioned to be notably different from game to game, both due to narrative differences as well as because the system has simply evolved over time.

Different in DH compared to the others. Ever since FFG got to write their own psychic system they've been pretty consistent. They even tried to patch their system onto DH (with Ascension)... although that didn't really work.

 Lynata wrote:
Rate of Fire bonuses, CSM having no Sneak penalty in BC, ... once you start looking you're bound to discover a lot of differences, even though the majority of the core rules may be copypasta.

CSM having no sneak penalties? Where are you getting that from?

H.B.M.C. wrote:The games all use the same rule base and have iterative changes between each successive line. They are compatible. To claim otherwise would be dishonest.

It would be dishonest to act as if the games would not have different narrative focuses that have apparently led to different rules (in many cases not just influenced by a simple evolution of the rules but out of said focus) and, in some cases, even different stat profiles. There's a reason the DW Genestealer is way more dangerous than the DH version.
The threads on FFG's forums discussing this very topic and the issues that came from attempts to do as you say are testament to this.

H.B.M.C. wrote:So?

So nothing. I'm just pointing out examples for the differences between the product lines that would influence gameplay. We all know Deathwatch is the "300" of FFG's RPGs, so for what it attempts to be, this approach is appropriate.

H.B.M.C. wrote:CSM having no sneak penalties? Where are you getting that from?

Here.

 Lynata wrote:


Examples of these including DH's Angelus boltgun which, as per its description, fires the very same ammunition used in Marine bolters, yet it's only 2d10 rather than 1d10+9. Or any and all las firearms in Only War now having charge sliders, since the fans lobbied for it on the forums and FFG caved in. The latter is particularly funny because for once, FFG's original rules attempted to replicate GW's own fluff on the subject. But I guess the Black Library Uplifting Primer is more popular.

Rate of Fire bonuses, CSM having no Sneak penalty in BC,

if I may...

for the Angelus, that was the good old days when Humans were mortals and Space Marines were demi gods with powerful weapons....before the (optional) DW errata that kicked down boltgun damage to 1d10+9, AKA an Arbites shotgun damage. Another case of FFG 'caving in' so to speak to the great whining (lobbying) sound coming forth from the forums.

As for CSM having no sneak penalties, I went and took out my still crisp copy of BC and flipped it around, it seems they did not add a "user get a -30 to stealth rolls' line in the armoury section; it may have been added in an errata, but I saw nothing in the gear or the CSM char generation info.

Wait humans are mortals and SM Demi gods? Wait when were they demi gods? Also I suppose it is an implication of the super high stats.

DH2 was originally a completely new game. The meaningful parts of it were carved out and replaced with OW. "To claim otherwise would be dishonest."

DH1 is technically compatible with RT, DW, BC, and OW. It can work but it takes work to make it work. It's not an easy fit nor does compatability seem to have been a design priority (or, if it was intended, it was not realized very well). Each game has a completely different theme and uses the basic rules concepts in different ways to address that theme.

 StarTrotter wrote:
Wait humans are mortals and SM Demi gods? Wait when were they demi gods? Also I suppose it is an implication of the super high stats.

SM characters are extremely powerful compared to "normal" (a.k.a. "mortal") characters from DH1.

Ah my apologies then. I was just curious why there was such a vast gap between the two. Seems they are releasing a new beta or something from the forums. I'll keep on reading. At worst, I might just get the DH1 and use the concepts themself and ttweak (I have tiem for that)

You can find it on sale at pretty nice discounts.

Manchu wrote:
DH2 was originally a completely new game. The meaningful parts of it were carved out and replaced with OW. "To claim otherwise would be dishonest."

Define "meaningful". I found the new character creation system to be very "meaningful".

Manchu wrote:
DH1 is technically compatible with RT, DW, BC, and OW. It can work but it takes work to make it work.

But they're compatible. Adding in degrees of compatibility is almost a "no true Scotsman" line of thinking.

@HBMC: If memory serves, we've been around this block before. Suffice it to say, we're coming at it from irreconcilable positions.


@Startrotter:

Manchu wrote:
You can find it on sale at pretty nice discounts.

You know, I posted this based on looking for source books a few weeks ago but now I'm finding NO deals on the core book. Your best bet may be a used copy.

I am biased but I prefer DH1 so far. It's not perfect but i have had some great campaigns with it. Great expansion books and fluff. Plus with rogue trader it's background focuses in the same sector/neighboring region so there is a lot of content that can be easily transferred between the two systems. Definitely worth checking out Dark heresy 1. I never really got into only war.

Inquisitor Jex wrote:for the Angelus, that was the good old days when Humans were mortals and Space Marines were demi gods with powerful weapons....before the (optional) DW errata that kicked down boltgun damage to 1d10+9, AKA an Arbites shotgun damage

Kicked down? The +9 means it loses a mere 1 point in maximum damage, whilst average damage was actually increased by about 25% from where it was before (11 -> 14.5). That certainly isn't a nerf.

It may be a nerf compared to the 2d10+5 they had in the DW core rulebook, where Marine bolt weapons were so broken they were mowing down Hive Tyrants within a single round. That is what Deathwatch GMs were "whining" about on the forums.



And the Arbites shotgun is just another case of FFG power creep. It was 1d10+4 Pen 0 in DH Core.

But if your interpretation is focused on Space Marines as "demi gods" rather than how GW made them in their own rules, then I suppose their DW version would fit your opinion. Don't get me wrong, though; I am currently partaking in an "on-and-off" Deathwatch game (see signature), and truth be told, their excessive capabilities do not bother me too much, because we're playing Movie Marines like they exist in the novels, and we're having fun. That would change quickly were we to mix these Marines with human characters, though, and that's one of my pet peeves with this system. In addition to conflicting with the fluff I grew up with, it's sabotaging crossovers and, in the worst cases, can put a quick end to a game. Or did you forget how your single CSM almost wiped out our DH party? We were fortunate you rolled really, really badly there (losing his weapon) and that we were rolling really, really good (Righteous Fury twice in a row). That bit with the grenade stuffed into his arm still smelled of railroading, though.

But, ah ... matter of preferences. It's just not the Marines from "my" 40k, I guess. However, I also still believe in this approach being bad for cross-compatibility. A less buffed version would have made their integration into mixed parties a lot easier. Or their use as "appropriately balanced" opponents.

StarTrotter wrote:I was just curious why there was such a vast gap between the two.

They were given their own class of "+1" weapons, and the way Toughness works in this game makes them resist upwards of 16 points of damage (8 from the weakest spot on their armour, another 8 from "skin armour" on the lowest level). For comparison, a Dark Heresy lasgun has a maximum damage of 13. A Dark Heresy bolter can do up to 19.
Whether this is an appropriate representation depends on whether you prefer GW's fluff and rules on them, or certain novel versions where they are the progagonists complete with plot armour (to be fair, there's books like this for other 40k character types as well, just not as often).

Lexx wrote:I am biased but I prefer DH1 so far. It's not perfect but i have had some great campaigns with it. Great expansion books and fluff. Plus with rogue trader it's background focuses in the same sector/neighboring region so there is a lot of content that can be easily transferred between the two systems. Definitely worth checking out Dark heresy 1. I never really got into only war.

They really all offer something, I think.

I'd recommend making the decision by what "game style" the group is aiming at. Dark Heresy is for secrecy and investigation with the occasional decisive fight. Deathwatch is mainly a dungeoncrawl where you mow down enemies by the dozens. Rogue Trader is a bit of a "business thriller" that also features extensive rules for space combat, and Only War is like a "low power" version of Deathwatch that, in addition to being a bit deadlier, expands on group interaction within the Imperial military.
Lastly, of course, there is also Black Crusade, which could probably be best described as a mixture of Dark Heresy and Rogue Trader, just for Chaos.

It's easily possible to tweak any of the above games into a different direction, but by the way of how their core rules are set up, they simply support one playstyle better than others.

From what I recall, the real problem wasn't in the bolter proper, but in the Devastator Marine's special ability that grandted him a +10 to his BS and allowed him to one shot most creature with a burst of his already more powerful than a standard boltgun bolt weapon, which can really only fire in full auto anyway. so with a BS score of (including full auto bonus and let's say, half range bonus, +10 thanks to special ability) about 81 using an average BS.

Let's say 4 bolt hits home; they're tearing so you roll twice the damage twice (2d10+10 pen 6) take the highest., and make those rolls 4 times, so 16 dices in total and you automatically confirm criticals, so you can add to the damage.

But anyways, that's just to say that from what I recall the devastator Marine was the main troublemaker, not the boltgun proper.

As for the Arbites shotgun, the main book showed a 2-barrel shotgun, a pump action shotgun and a combat shotgun, all generic models. The 1d10+9 shotgun is the Vox Legi pattern, the standard Arbites model, not a generic type like in the core.

As for Marines being demi gods, that's how they're seems, despite being, as you, I and everyone else that read a bit on them, they're just genetically created super humans...and that CSM truly rolled badly, hence why he switched to his 'crappy' combat blade, but even then, he either failed to hit, or you managed to dodge....yeah the grenade was a bit to push things forward I admit, also not to have him being killed by the psyker with precise blow just killing him with his pocket knife...lacked theatricals wouldn't you say?