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playing a game Just because a character is female or male and not playing a game that actually has a great story line.

stereotyping female characters by placing a pink dress or bow on them... what about transgendered people who wants to be the woman in the pretty pink dress? or be the man who saves the day and gets the girl? Wtf about them?

The person in this video only looks at the world in black and white.

dementedwombat wrote:I swear someday I will make up a small space marine force, and if anybody asks just say "By the way they're all female. You just can't tell under the armor".

Not sure if that would be good or bad according to the material given...

If you wanted to be fluffy about it, you could say they're SoBs with bulkier power armour. I'm not sure if that would defeat the purpose, though. Personally, I'd prefer if Space Marines were more like Super Mutants in Fallout; by the time the human has fully transformed, all sexual characteristics are completely gone.

Melissia wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:
Are they the "Miss Male Character" because of lazy design (Half the time), or are they Miss Male Character due to someone somewhere saying "Hey, put a female character in it, don't matter how!" and it being too late to change anything?

Why do you consider these separate questions?

Lazy game design is why male characters are the default, AND lazy game design is why when someone asks for a female character, they just alter a male character to get her put in instead of putting forth any real effort. Trying to hate women for wanting to be included is silly.

Melissia wrote:

 Slarg232 wrote:
Oddly enough, no one actually hates women.

Then stop being bitter because women want to be included as something more than eye candy. You're laying the blame on female gamers for wanting to be included.

Slarg did not mention women wanting to be included. Slarg said "someone somewhere". Your comment suggests that all female characters - you know, the bad tropes, the Smurfettes and Ms Male Characters - exist because "women want to be included", which I highly doubt. As Slarg said, it was likely some (male) corporate lead as a marketing thing. If women created all female characters, I highly doubt the level of sexism present in the industry would be as high as it is. Melissia, nobody is bashing women, here - you have to stop reading people's posts with a bias towards them being sexist.

EDIT: Because transgender is a whole big, confusing bag of worms that nobody in their right mind dare mention on the internet, because there is no right answer and it will only offend people whose view is slightly different?

Also, I agree. Playing or not playing games just because they do or don't have female characters is just being plain silly about it.

Heh, some sisters purged a rogue space marine chapter and kept the armor, because free equipment.

Of course the whole "not designed for normal humans" thing would be a problem... Ah well. That's way too much effort for a joke army anyway.

I'd love these people to pin down what they want their feminine character to be like exactly, or gives some relatively decent examples of what the feth their problem is.

Throughout history most combatants have been male, obviously there are exceptions, but to claim that we should expect even representation is aiming a bit high. Then as soon as women are represented it's clearly done in a misogynistic or oppressive way.

The kind of bloggers that go on about this stuff are completely out of touch or touched in the head.



Funnily enough I think the woman who wrote that article deleted it, as I can't find it. Kotaku is attrocious to search through though.

Also, Anita... heroine of female gaming culture hates games and is a massive liar.

That is truly disappointing. The truth often is, I guess.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Also, I agree. Playing or not playing games just because they do or don't have female characters is just being plain silly about it.

And yet people keep saying "Vote with your wallet!"

Just can't win can we.

I think the big thing to take from this is why every character in any work of fiction is always automatically assumed to be a male unless they specifically need to be a female for a romance, mother, etc... Why is it that when you have a group of rough and tough soldiers they always have some combination of The Leader(male), The techy(male), Muscles(male) and the girl, her defining characteristic is that she is a she.

Or they have a female protaginist and litter the work with undertones of oh look she's acting as a motherly figure.

Oh, I'm not saying that this invalidates the argument/issues. It is much more beneficial to spread awareness and the like; this thread, for example, I am glad to have seen Anita's video, even if it did turn out she isn't genuine. While I was already aware of the topics covered in said video, perhaps others were not.

Such awareness is especially important here. Disagree if you like, but wargamers tend not only to be male, but extremely sexist.

Unfortunately, there isn't anything any of us can do about anything, not really. Also, boycotting of games without female characters (Deus Ex: HuRev has female characters, though, just none who are significant... but it has few significant characters overall, anyway) suggests that all games must have them. I would understand if it was a boycotting of extremely misogynist material. Metroid: Other M, for example.

EDIT: By the way, I was specifically noting the "Most of all, when you let all of the above happen and don't call these behaviors out as inexcusable, inappropriate, antiquated, and harmful- that, above all else is why women don't play this game." line in my link. If you feed or fund a terrorist...

 Medium of Death wrote:
The kind of bloggers that go on about this stuff are completely out of touch or touched in the head.



Funnily enough I think the woman who wrote that article deleted it, as I can't find it. Kotaku is attrocious to search through though.

I'm pretty sure that's because that article is fake.

 Madcat87 wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Also, I agree. Playing or not playing games just because they do or don't have female characters is just being plain silly about it.

And yet people keep saying "Vote with your wallet!"

Just can't win can we.

I think the big thing to take from this is why every character in any work of fiction is always automatically assumed to be a male unless they specifically need to be a female for a romance, mother, etc... Why is it that when you have a group of rough and tough soldiers they always have some combination of The Leader(male), The techy(male), Muscles(male) and the girl, her defining characteristic is that she is a she.

Or they have a female protaginist and litter the work with undertones of oh look she's acting as a motherly figure.

To be fair, if you boil any character down enough, you get "their defining character is their gender". Which was one of the points that I didn't get about this one - the female bowser character "One look at her and you know that her character is female and not much else." No, I know from the level of accoutrements that she is probably, a vain, self absorbed female; which is about on par with say a maniacal, insane male going around throwing beakers and vials - because they are villains, not positive role models. Regardless of whether you like it, that is a character.

And really, anything 16 bits or lower should be totally disregarded.

 Coolyo294 wrote:

I'm pretty sure that's because that article is fake.

I present thee



there are people like that out in the world. its scary.

 Bromsy wrote:

To be fair, if you boil any character down enough, you get "their defining character is their gender". Which was one of the points that I didn't get about this one - the female bowser character "One look at her and you know that her character is female and not much else." No, I know from the level of accoutrements that she is probably, a vain, self absorbed female; which is about on par with say a maniacal, insane male going around throwing beakers and vials - because they are villains, not positive role models. Regardless of whether you like it, that is a character.

That is not at all true. The "maniacal, insane male" isn't marked by his gender - being a Koopa, his design could just as easily be used for a female character. There is nothing about his design that explicitly states he is male, whereas his sister has insanely huge lips and, as Anita said, just about every "female" stereotypical gender marker imaginable.

The argument is just that - a character could be adorned with features that tell of their personality, especially in cartoonish settings as Mario. But the female one - and there is almost always only one - is just "The Girl". As mentioned, Smurfette is the perfect example; all the other Smurfs are like, Rocketeer Smurf or Miner Smurf or whatever. Her name is almost literally "Female Smurf", but where is "Male Smurf"? All of the others are characterised by their hobbies or talents, while she is characterised solely by her gender, just like the female Koopa.

EDIT: Ninjacommando, just spend any amount of time on Tumblr. You won't be disappointed.

Stupidity exists on both sides of an argument you'll find. Even on the "Enlightened" side of things.

Medium of Death wrote:Throughout history most combatants have been male, obviously there are exceptions, but to claim that we should expect even representation is aiming a bit high.

Is it?

Either a game is aiming for realism (and should feature females when they actually were active in a conflict), or it's not (and should feature both genders just because there's no reason not to).
I certainly wouldn't jump to the defense of posts like the one you posted a screenshot of, but you can't pick one side of the argument and then turn suddenly around and champion the other.

Games, just like movies and books, are a medium which has the power to influence how young people perceive their society, and the norms and standards they grow up with. And it is a sad, sad reality that a lot of people are very unaware just how many female fighters - and thus, in a weird way, role models (as our society teaches that the ability to physically enforce your wants and independence is a desirable trait) - have existed at certain eras in certain cultures that promoted them. People are not only deriving fun from playing games, but they also learn from them, and when it is part of the current industry model to suppress the representation of women in such active and powerful roles, then we end up with something that sabotages current efforts to some day achieve actual equality between the sexes.

And this suppression hasn't even to do with malice but just with the various studios/companies thinking they ought to save money and resources by cutting out such a seemingly unimportant factor (likely in favour of extra code for simulating the accurate swaying of trees in their 3D engine) - just like they think about all the additional revenue it would bring if they advertise their game with blatantly sexist content simply because it sells. The end result is the same, and I would actually say that, by having achieved such influence and position in our everyday lives, the gaming companies should now take a certain responsibility for just how their games are shaping future generations. Especially when we are talking about an industry which oh so often claims it is producing "art" and "takes on social issues".

But at least some people are talking about it now, so perhaps the industry will ultimately adapt, some time down the road.

I am well aware how deceptive Anita has been. Its a shame because the issue of how women are represented in games is an important one and it would be nice to have someone more reputable behind the arguments.

I don't even know how to address the complaints about Mass Effect. I mean, I didn't even know they provided a variant female cover, that's pretty awesome. But seriously, they picked their 'default' Shepard when they designed the first game and stuck with it. It was never the Shepard I played, male or female. They made great strides to include everyone, in that game. Male, female, hetero, homo, or xenosexual. Complaining about Mass Effect is ridiculous.


- To spell it out, every game with event the slightest freeform roleplaying elements should allow you to choose what gender you want to play. Roleplaying is all about getting into your character and experiencing the world from their perspective. I have only played women in a couple of games, it's just generally not my thing; any women that feel the same way should be accommodated. Anyone who complains about "historical realism" in games as a means to exclude women is quite frankly an idiot. Until we have a game where you play through your entire life, balancing your nutrition and training; putting on your armor piece by piece while sweating your ass off in the hot sun, and wherein if you die the game is totally 100% over, no one cares about historical realism. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for games like Deus Ex or Remember Me, where the narrative is carefully built around a single and specific character - and yes, there needs to be some work at addressing the gender imbalance there. I do think it is a bit silly to rail against games that are primarily played by men for gearing their advertisement that way, while still giving you every option to play through the game as whatever character you want.

I also think that arcade game characters not being differentiated by more than a bow pre 2000 is also profoundly silly. I don't identify with pacman or Ms pacman on a gender level. Their relative genders don't speak to me at all. They are yellow dots. This whole series might be relevant if it focused on things that happened since the turn of the century; but I think she would run out of things to talk about since things have been steadily improving and most of what she brings up is fifteen, twenty, thirty years old. I'm sorry, any misogyny that existed in the NES is just frankly irrelevant at this point. Any damage it was going to do to people is long done.

Bromsy wrote:I don't even know how to address the complaints about Mass Effect. I mean, I didn't even know they provided a variant female cover, that's pretty awesome. But seriously, they picked their 'default' Shepard when they designed the first game and stuck with it. It was never the Shepard I played, male or female. They made great strides to include everyone, in that game. Male, female, hetero, homo, or xenosexual. Complaining about Mass Effect is ridiculous.

Personally, I wouldn't complain about Mass Effect, but Bioware would have had the opportunity to be a bit more diverse with its default heroes - you know, switching from game to game rather than showing a marked bias for the white male human.
At least the one in Dragon Age had different hair and facial hair than the apparent industry standard, though. And thanks to that alone seemed much more characterful to me.

Bioware could further be faulted for how they monetise the male and female Shepard in their licensing department:
Manshep <--> Femshep
There is no female Sideshow statue. There is no male anime version.

Not that I dislike Bishojou Shepard - I think she still looks cool. And we can be fortunate that she didn't end up like what they made of Liara.

Bromsy wrote:That doesn't mean there isn't a place for games like Deus Ex or Remember Me, where the narrative is carefully built around a single and specific character

Nonsense. Deus Ex would have worked just as well if Jensen was a girl, and Remember Me would have worked just as well if Nilin was a boy. I would have thought that various exceptional games or, more frequently, TV shows and movies would provide proof for how fluid and blurred the line between "gender roles" has become? What exactly is it supposed to be that a female heroine would be unable to portray, or conversely a male one?

 Lynata wrote:

Medium of Death wrote:Throughout history most combatants have been male, obviously there are exceptions, but to claim that we should expect even representation is aiming a bit high.

Is it?

Either a game is aiming for realism (and should feature females when they actually were active in a conflict), or it's not (and should feature both genders just because there's no reason not to).
I certainly wouldn't jump to the defense of posts like the one you posted a screenshot of, but you can't pick one side of the argument and then turn suddenly around and champion the other.
.

Why not both?

Why can't we have our Tomb Raider/Remember Me/Metroids, but then turn around and have our Duke Nukem/Army of Two/Splatterhouse?

 Slarg232 wrote:

Why not both?

Why can't we have our Tomb Raider/Remember Me/Metroids, but then turn around and have our Duke Nukem/Army of Two/Splatterhouse?

Because then we couldn't complain about our First world problems.

Are the females in those games being opressed and put into their "place" or are they there taking names and kicking ass?

 Lynata wrote:
Either a game is aiming for realism (and should feature females when they actually were active in a conflict), or it's not (and should feature both genders just because there's no reason not to).

For the first part, should the outcome of a female soldier being captured be shown?

Slarg232 wrote:Why can't we have our Tomb Raider/Remember Me/Metroids, but then turn around and have our Duke Nukem/Army of Two/Splatterhouse?

We can and we should!

I guess there was a bit of a misunderstanding here - what I meant is that you cannot excuse one game not having female characters (where realism may demand it) because this would "aim a bit high", and simultaneously use realism as an excuse for other games where female characters would indeed appear out of place (usually due to era-specific limitations).

Or, for games where realism is not a concern, have female characters simply because there's no reason not to have them. The titles you mentioned are, ironically, a good example - I'm sure you picked them randomly, but how many of them feature a female heroine, even just as an alternative option? Or how are women depicted at all in a title like Duke Nukem?
... It's subtle, innit.

Ninjacommando wrote:Are the females in those games being opressed and put into their "place" or are they there taking names and kicking ass?

Really now? When his first example was "Duke Nukem"?




I guess you could call it a "First World Problem" in that people might regard it as less important than "Third World Problems" like widespread famine and civil war, but from the sound of it you were aiming for a less serious connotation - which kind of only reinforces the problem we have right now.

Ninjacommando wrote:For the first part, should the outcome of a female soldier being captured be shown?

Back at you: Should the outcome of a male soldier being captured be shown?

You know what I never understand? Why don't men complain about '300' showing men in a blatant sexual way? I mean you have 300 oiled up muscled men fighting nearly naked. For me the female version of that is that the model-esque women in that one action movie that had all the women at a mental hospital or something and they wore some sexualized clothing in the fantasy world (god I can't remember the name of the movie but I never saw it).

You guys do realize as a guy I also play an often attractive man or sometimes what I wish I was and I don't think it's sexist. I play who I wish to be. If a woman wants to play an attractive woman then she can.

-----------------

With smurfette I imagine that yeah she's thrown in there because there needs to be a girl character just as a minority might be thrown in just to appease that audience. That said I think often the writer or people that make the game might wish to make a character based around themselves. Perhaps i'm wrong and they go for what society wants or expects or what they think sells and i'm sad to see old habits from the older society sticking still. I still think though as a writer what do you write? Do you write characters that have traits of yourself or at least your gender or do you write about characters that totally don't relate to you at all. What I think is that there needs to be more female writers making the female characters. If a guy writes a female character it'll probably be half-hearted unless they secretly want to be a girl. So yeah I wouldn't be surprised men write it but not really are trying to hold women back so much that they're used to writing about themselves. Perhaps i'm wrong though. This also kind of fits for the miss male character so I don't think I need to explain that one too much. I know people like to pretend they're all super unbiased but it's bull sh*t. Without knowing the story people want what represents them best black people want black people more, women want women, men want men and so on. Humans also find humans to be so f*cking important. Why do some religions place so much importance on humans or why are they inherently better and therefore are able to treat other species like sh*t for being better?

If you're going to complain about women not being shown in games or being represented poorly then you have to complain about other things. Why were aliens the bad guys in so many early works? Why is it children are often not shown in many video games as if they don't exist? Sure there may be only male characters but why is it society shows disgust when women are hurt, beat up or killed?

Equal treatment means you don't get any literal or figurative doors held open for you. It means if a guy can get his face shot in a scene of a movie or game then a woman or other group should too.

Also keep this in mind if you were not a woman would you even care as much about women being treated unfairly in games and movies? For women they have something personal to gain from this whereas for guys we would need to appease the women too and sort of cut back what we get to give the women more. It's not as easy to give as it is to receive. So yeah while you guys may need better treatment you gotta realize you're on the side that gets something whereas men will be on the side that gives something.

------------

Other than that just annoyed how once again this is a thread melissia has to complain about how her gender isn't treated equally even though she wouldn't care if it didn't effect something she was. Notice how few posts melissia has about black people or Hispanic people being treated fairly in games or perhaps mistreatment of animals in real life (like with pets). If you're going to talk about inequality you may as well talk about the whole d*mn thing instead of this.

Anyway I dunno I just think this is all stupid. Often it feels like it eventually turns into a girls vs boys sort of topic and then it just gets annoying.

flamingkillamajig wrote:You know what I never understand? Why don't men complain about '300' showing men in a blatant sexual way? I mean you have 300 oiled up muscled men fighting nearly naked. For me the female version of that is that the model-esque women in that one action movie that had all the women at a mental hospital or something and they wore some sexualized clothing in the fantasy world (god I can't remember the name of the movie but I never saw it).

Now you're talking a fallacy. The men in 300 are warriors, and their bodies are an embodiment (heh) of this. The muscles and their form are all about physical prowess and battle strength. Is this really the same as the movie with the sexualised girls you are referring to (Sucker Punch)? When you look at this, do you think "wow she must be tough" or rather "sexy, a bellyfree schoolgirl uniform!"

Ask yourself and you have your answer (I hope).

flamingkillamajig wrote:If you're going to complain about women not being shown in games or being represented poorly then you have to complain about other things. [...] Other than that just annoyed how once again this is a thread melissia has to complain about how her gender isn't treated equally even though she wouldn't care if it didn't effect something she was. Notice how few posts melissia has about black people or Hispanic people being treated fairly in games or perhaps mistreatment of animals in real life (like with pets). If you're going to talk about inequality you may as well talk about the whole d*mn thing instead of this.

What is this, an "all or nothing" kind of deal? Would you really tell people to shut up struggling for their rights if they do not fulfill some sort of "quota" for everyone? Have you yourself never fought for justice?
And what makes you even think that just because humans have a tendency to focus their efforts on specific topics (because, y'know, the day only has 24 hours) they would be indifferent about any other sort of suffering? Wow. I'm sorry, but that's just arrogant.

Here's a little experiment. Let's assume we travel back in time into the 17th century ... I've taken your little speech and just exchanged the groups of people you referenced for other groups of people:

flamingkillamajig wrote:Also keep this in mind if you were not a black person would you even care as much about blacks being treated unfairly? For blacks they have something personal to gain from this whereas for whites we would need to appease the blacks too and sort of cut back what we get to give the blacks more. It's not as easy to give as it is to receive. So yeah while you blacks may need better treatment you gotta realize you're on the side that gets something whereas whites will be on the side that gives something.

 Medium of Death wrote:
I'd love these people to pin down what they want their feminine character to be like exactly, or gives some relatively decent examples of what the feth their problem is.

There is no one stock female character that I want. But as a general rule, I like having female characters who face the same sorts of issues faced by male characters. For example, I like Cass from New Vegas, a caravaneer with a drinking problem who is in an emotional rut when you meet her because the attacks on trade caravans are making life hell for her.

Throughout history most combatants have been male, obviously there are exceptions, but to claim that we should expect even representation is aiming a bit high.

I'm not asking for equal quantities of representation, but equal quality of representation. I wouldn't care if there were a hundred all-male historical armies to choose from, if I could ignore them in favour of the Minoans or the Caracal Battalion.

The men in '300' could've worn more than practically nothing. Even muscled armor would have made sense. You don't go out into a battle stark naked. I always pictured Spartans with armor. Yes it was 'sucker punch'. Like I said I haven't seen that movie and it did feel like fan service somewhat. Not that I ever care about women being super fit or modeled and I've never been into bellies for some reason. I just find that '300' was also fan service to many groups. I heard women are really interested in it for more sexual purposes.

I'm merely saying that melissia should struggle for things that don't only effect her. If you're only struggling for something that effects you and act offended then often it's a more personal issue. I understand your side is being treated worse I really do i'm just saying that other groups aren't treated well either. If you wish to be a knight for justice it should be all justice rather than the ones that suit you or your interests. I mean perhaps having a stake in something means that you are more emotional about it and understand your side more but it also means you're much more biased and can't see the other side of things.

I suppose I've fought for some justice but it was more geared to help those who reminded me of myself in those situations. That said I also have helped people I really pitied. I'm more searching for all justice rather than selective justice. I hope that isn't disagreeable. I suppose I get your point somewhat.

Well i'm just making a point that we would. I don't find we'd lose much by helping women out but if you're going to say men are treated better then they have to give away some of that better treatment in order to be equal.

My point is i'm trying to show you the men's perspective too. Do you need to be represented better? Yes. However is it easier to receive than to give? Yes. I'm not saying I mind women in games. I don't and they can be in a bunch of games as the main character and i'll play the ones i'm more interested in like 'Remember Me' just because you made it sound awesome rather than the fact it features a woman as the main character.

I don't find I was being entirely disagreeable to women here. I have seen lots of black people vote for black political candidates and I've heard women more for female political candidates. People want what represents themselves. It's not even just this as with certain political candidates they seem to really seem relatable to some groups (they come from a similar background and somewhat support certain groups more). I'm just stating what I feel is basic human nature. People also seem to write themselves. If there were more female writers perhaps there'd be more good female leads in games. Perhaps i'm wrong. I don't know. I feel like as a guy I usually prefer to play as men but I feel it'd be confusing to play as a woman and people may question things. I suppose this is how women feel and i have realized this for some time. I apologize for you guys having to feel that way. Like I said though I feel more female writers would solve this problem a bit better.

-----------

Keep in mind this is mostly geared towards melissia. The difference in style between how you two normally discuss things is usually apparent. She often gets pissed off whereas you (I think) tend to discuss alternatives and figure things out more calmly. It's why I listen to you and try not to listen to her. Listening to speech filled with hate is just something that turns me off a topic faster than anything. Anyway I don't wish to argue with you as I respect you too much.

flamingkillamajig wrote:The men in '300' could've worn more than practically nothing. Even muscled armor would have made sense. You don't go out into a battle stark naked.

It's not realistic, but in this case it is more manly.

"Manly" - this term itself is a good example of how gender roles are defined, no?

flamingkillamajig wrote:I don't find we'd lose much by helping women out but if you're going to say men are treated better then they have to give away some of that better treatment in order to be equal.

And this certainly is a reason for many to oppose such movements. A lot of people dislike giving up power or even just a "superior status" - regardless of whether this is about skin colours, religion, or gender. Certainly, there is a very real threat of, for example, a limited number of work places going at least partially to women, which would lead to some men being forced to look for other jobs, or even have none at all.
On the other hand, it's the same with people of different skin colours. And besides, even this negative side-effect is merely a sign of equality, for equality also means sharing burdens. As a species, we should stop erecting artificial barriers between us and instead work to tackle our societies' problems (which would include unemployment, or the economy in general) as unified people, because in the end, we are all just humans. Yes, I'm being idealistic here. Sue me, I've got a UN flag in my room just because. :b

flamingkillamajig wrote:Keep in mind this is mostly geared towards melissia. The difference in style between how you two normally discuss things is usually apparent. She often gets pissed off whereas you (I think) tend to discuss alternatives and figure things out more calmly. It's why I listen to you and try not to listen to her. Listening to speech filled with hate is just something that turns me off a topic faster than anything. Anyway I don't wish to argue with you as I respect you too much.

Why, thank you - though I will say that even if I had my fair share of arguments with Melissia myself, and though I think she may at times overreact or at least choose her words poorly (to give this a positive spin, some might call her "temperamental"), she often makes good points and her heart is in the right place. She just needs to work on how to get those points across. In her defense, it is easy to get worked up about injustice, and claims that just because someone seems to focus on one issue would simultaneously mean they don't care for other things are somewhat unfair.

... let's see if this was diplomatic enough for the both of you.

AlexHolker wrote:I wouldn't care if there were a hundred all-male historical armies to choose from, if I could ignore them in favour of the Minoans or the Caracal Battalion.

Meh, I know the IDF is the popular example for female soldiers, but there are armies that take this more serious than the Israelis, who supposedly limit this battalion's activities to border patrol. Granted, it's a dangerous border, but there are other nations where it has become common practice to send female infantry into combat zones, including my original home country. (someone did a short translation of a similar article here for anyone who's interested in this incident)

 Medium of Death wrote:
I'd love these people to pin down what they want their feminine character to be like exactly, or gives some relatively decent examples of what the feth their problem is.

You can't be exact because people don't want just one type of female character. People want verity. Fat, thin. Short, tall. Smart, dumb. This, that. The problem comes when women only show up in a small number of types.

I understand the stance against sexism in videogames, but going about the way characters were portrayed during the 8 bit era, stereotyping was the only to differentiate characters.

I eagerly await the video on sexist portrayal of toilet and street signs. Because well a simplified image of a human in a skirt is well stereotypical

nomotog wrote:

 Medium of Death wrote:
I'd love these people to pin down what they want their feminine character to be like exactly, or gives some relatively decent examples of what the feth their problem is.

You can't be exact because people don't want just one type of female character. People want verity. Fat, thin. Short, tall. Smart, dumb. This, that. The problem comes when women only show up in a small number of types.

I know it's an even greater concern for females, but it's not like we are always provided with a wealth of different male leads, too. When was the last time I got to play as a short lead? I want to be 5-4 pudgy Sam Fisher.

@lynata: Sadly melissia and I kind of hate each other anyway but we usually try to ignore each other. I looked at this thread though and it just bugged me. She seems to be a broken record about getting unequal treatment.

You want to know what i'm not tied into that I feel bad for? My previous dog that I had. How do people treat pets? You have to realize often times we take them away from their parents as just children and we give their parents (used for breeding) names like porn stars with a number added at the end. I am not kidding. When we saw my dog's mom she looked broken. She didn't want to care anymore about her children being taken away from her. She didn't want to become attached. This is what humans do to a species they consider as 'pets'. I even put a leash on him to walk him outside. Maybe it's weird to feel this way but how would humans be treated by another supposedly 'superior' species. We don't allow this treatment for human/human interaction. We don't think about this because it's normal to us. Their existence is mostly to serve ours and when we're done with them we sell them or put them to sleep. There are even shelters which kill strays they can't keep. This is an issue. Pets can't stand up for themselves or at least not well esp. not a little 12 pound shih Tzu (like my dog). The sad thing is my dog still enjoyed people and was happy anyway. In a way we treat him alright but that treatment isn't right either. Perhaps if there was a park where people could keep stray dogs and people would come by to feed them at certain intervals. I dunno. Basically put any situation your pet is in and tack on people doing it to other people. You'll get why i'm caught up in this.

 Lynata wrote:

flamingkillamajig wrote:The men in '300' could've worn more than practically nothing. Even muscled armor would have made sense. You don't go out into a battle stark naked.

It's not realistic, but in this case it is more manly.

"Manly" - this term itself is a good example of how gender roles are defined, no?

No, it is not more manly, unless by "manly" you mean "homoerotic". Proper hoplite armour would have been more manly and more stylish than the Zardoz look.

I hated Sucker Punch too, but not because of the outfits, because I wanted to see a movie where women hop between worlds doing awesome things but it's instead a movie where women can only do awesome things in their own imaginations, and everything else is about how much it sucks to be a woman.

AlexHolker wrote:I wouldn't care if there were a hundred all-male historical armies to choose from, if I could ignore them in favour of the Minoans or the Caracal Battalion.

Meh, I know the IDF is the popular example for female soldiers, but there are armies that take this more serious than the Israelis, who supposedly limit this battalion's activities to border patrol. Granted, it's a dangerous border, but there are other nations where it has become common practice to send female infantry into combat zones, including my original home country. (someone did a short translation of a similar article here for anyone who's interested in this incident)

I was thinking specifically of historical wargaming, where your current options are "no women" or "almost no women". Even if the Caracals don't actually see much action, they're an excuse to produce the plastic kit. As for video games, I'd be quite happy to see a bro shooter where you lead a fire team with more than zero women in it.

yeah WTF... i never get to make any char that isnt a skinny perfect looking dude or dudette...

the men are always over sexualized muscle men, and have 6 packs, the women are the same, but with comically sized boobs or undersized armour instead of comical muscles.

games are more anti fat then then are anti women... which is surprising given how fat the average gamer is.

I wanna make ugly characters... is that so much to ask?

to be fair a lot more games have the custom options now, but really its a big part of the immersion to create something that isnt so cookie cutter.

its really not limited to the realm of female chars, the cookie cutter protagonist has tropes on both sides.