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If he has mark of nurgle on his chaos spawn then you will be wounding on 6s. Also the spawn move 12". This means 2 things:

1. your librarian has the wrong weapon for the job (sword)
2. even if you took a force mace (which wounds on 4+ vs spawn) then he would just ignore you if you rolled around with the terminators.

The reason I suggested the mace and hanging out with your backfield units is so you can counter the spawn otherwise as you said they will run rampant through your defenseless tactical squads.

Point taken. I just don't know enough yet to catch these small pitfalls. Switching that around to Force Mace!
Hanging around in the back is what plan, after all I want those Lascannons to HIT stuff and not whiff. But if he doesn't bring them for whatever reason, I can go with the Termies.

Edit:
You're talking about a Force Staff, no? Can't find a Force Mace anywhere...

Yes think so, the one with +2S and AP4. I would usually always go with an axe since it has AP2 so is generally better but if the only thing you are really worried about is multi wound/tough fast beasts (flesh hounds, spawn, nurgle bikers) then the staff is probably the one you want.

Remember the guy isn't there to work wonders, keep him cheap. Generally if you have a squad give it the gear it needs to do it's job and then stop i.e. if you can take divination and want prescience take him as a naked level 1 psyker (force mace comes for free) then terminator armour because it's cheap and boosts his effectiveness vs spawn/bikers (it also is the only way to get an invuln as I understand it) then stop there.

40k is about points effectiveness, things like land raiders aren't necessarily out if it is a key strategy for your army. For example you can take a greater daemon and a daemon prince (say kairos and a slaanesh prince) + 2 units of disposable cheap as chips pink horrors at 800 points. It is a legal army and is pretty nasty (and also cheesy) despite having a 300 pt model and another 350+ pt model. It works because they are effective units. Effective units are good no matter what the points level is. I don't think Land Raiders are really in that category though since they are a bit hit or miss.

Thats the one.
I'll make sure to magnetize the weapon, so I can try different things.

Hm nope, the Libby always can take the Powerfield which would give him and, in case of CC, pretty much everyone else a 4++. Which in this case is bad

I see what you mean, I already bunked down pretty everything (the Plasma Pistol on the DV Sarge is just a waste in a shooty squad). With a movement of 12" I suspect I'm getting charged, which is why I went with a Combiflamer for 6 pts, but against T6 it won't cut it.
I'd like to keep him at lvl 2, cause then he can activate his Force Staff and cast prescience on a nearby squad (the mentioned devastators). Easily removed tho.

Yeah, that's what I'm pretty sure he'll do.
If I add more points, in come a demon prince and a helldrake. I need to work at this 1k core before I move up and face even greater challenges. It became a great deal nastier with your help (not to neglect the other advice)! We'll see how I fare on the next Wednesday.

One question tho, a tad unrelated... Why the hell would anyone give a bike a bolt pistol? They're relentless, so there's always a better shooty option and a Pistol doesn't do anything without a CCW, which they can take INSTEAD.

 Sasori wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
He can't legally take 2 Blastmasters in a unit of 10, you're only allowed 1 per 10 marines. *snip*

The FAQ allows 1 every 5 NM now.

You're both wrong. The FAQ allows 1 blastmaster for up to 9, and 2 blastmasters for 10+. If you have 20 guys, you still only get 2 blastmasters. If you have 10 guys, you get 2. If you have less than 10, you only get 1.

Feedback time guys
I got to play for the first time since I underwent tutoring and tip getting here.

I got myself a Vindicator and a Razorback as said/told and... I WON. I freakin WON by 3:1 score.
What went REALLY well: the first shot the Vindicator took was a full hit and killed 8 of 10 NM.
GLORIOUS!
The TDA Libby that was recommended took out 3 Chaos Spawns and 2 Mutilators before finally succumbing to the last one. Def. worth it.
The Razorback is not effective enough at closing in to the Defiler... Drop Pod is a better idea,d with the saved points getting a TL Predator should help deal with that.

I personally run 2 fully kitted squads of Noise Marines in most of my Chaos games, I can feel your agony, and know your opponents joy...

I'll let you in on a bit of a secret.

Noise Marines are terrified of str 8 weapons. And don't be fooled by the blast masters. I'm not sure if you know this yet, nor if your opponent has done this to you, but the Blastmaster has 2 firing modes. 1 is a small blast, the other is assault 2 with a range of 36".

A weird thing I always find about my Noise Marines, is they tend to be pretty effective at killing AV12 vehicles... That's going to sound strange, but with most SM vehicles having side armor 12, my str 8 Blastmasters always hit side armor when using my blast profile. 4s to glance is crazy in that case. But if you really want to counter them, you should get some infiltration and run 2 Vindicators.

Vindicators infiltrating up to his gunlines maintaining 18" away from his charging units, and just within range of his shooting. The only things that can hurt them, are the battle cannon and Blastmasters. its a chance, but in my experience, having to force his hand into shooting your vindicators means your other stuff has a chance to move uncontested up the board towards him for a turn or two.

Hope that helps a bit!

GoliothOnline wrote:
my str 8 Blastmasters always hit side armor when using my blast profile.

I thought this for the longest time too but it is actually only Barrage weapons that hit side armour. Blast weapons hit the facing that you are on as normal.

I'll tell you what infuriates me as a noisemarine user, also taking 2 units of 10 with 2 blastmasters each:

A damn character with a 2+ save.

It's risky if he's on foot, but if you have a character with artificer armor and on a bike, they can tank wounds for your squad by being the closest model. Now you have a 2+ armor save vs my AP3 blastmaster, and even if you fail one the biker guy doesn't die, and I don't even force a pinning test because I haven't caused a casualty unless he dies.

If you spread out, it's possible to ensure the blast can only ever be placed to hit a single model (could scatter to hit multiple, but likely only 3).

You can also try getting on a multi-level ruin. Blasts have to be aimed at a specific level, so if they scatter off that level, they do no damage even if there's people on lower levels (unlike barrage, which hits the first level it lands on).

The Black Knights come with a Rad grenade launcher and plasma guns, which will reduce his toughness to 3, where your S7 plasma weapons can cause instant death. Are there auspexes in the DA codex? If there are, using one of those will also reduce his cover save vs said plasma weapons.

I know you've been shying away from a landraider for fear of a daemon prince, but the combination of landraider and vindicator scares princes. Everything he's shooting at you, from the defiler's battle cannon to the blastmasters, is strength 8 meaning it needs a 6 to glance the landraider. Good odds. A daemon prince would be scary, but remember he has to ADD the daemon prince, he can't replace his lord (lucius) with it, since you have to have a lord with the mark of Slaanesh (or lucius) in order to get noisemarines as troops.

That prince, though, is only toughness 5 so your vindicator can insta-kill him if he ever lands on the ground or if you go first and he's within range.

Also, rad grenades on daemon prince that's landed to kill your landraider = dead prince. Hit him with a rad grenade, then hit him with a thunder hammer. He'll be T4 and suffer instant death.

Jeezuz, the mind boogling opportunities to totally bend him over...

What I don't understand for now... How can I infiltrate a Vindicator? His Blastmasters whoomped off the front armor pretty good, but the template still hitting the front when scattered off is a valuable tidbit I didn't know yet. Good one!

I built myself a little 2" plastic thingi, basically a big T with the upper line being nearly 2" long. Helps immensly spreading out the marines to max distance to combat templates.

Auspexes... Sure! It's in the codex at a meagre 5 points. Could put it on my Librarian, which either is eqipped with TDA or a bike as my current planing. Would work perfectly for that purpose.

Insta deathing the DP would be one of the most hilarious jaw dropping things to do to him ever. He's literally frothing at the mouth to wait for me to get enough points so he can field him

All this options and superb ideas and so few points... Damnit thrice to hell! I just can't find the points for the LR, but I want one with 4 TH/SS Termies and a HF... -.-

If only I wouldn't so like the idea of a Mixwing... with a few tanks.. and a dreadnought...

Also deathwing knights eat daemon princes for breakfast. Use their Smite ability to make them all S10 for a turn and if a single one gets through he's toast. Decent insurance in case he comes at your landraider with his daemon prince.

"Oh look you managed to kill it. Guess what's inside?"

And keep in mind anything you have that's inner circle has preferred enemy: CSM. So you reroll 1's to wound on things like.... I dunno....krak missiles fired at Rad-grenaded T4 daemon princes.

I personally don't know how to infiltrate a vindicator in the DA army list either, but I wouldn't necessarily try those sort of shenanigans.

Really the DA list has a lot of tools at its disposal. At the moment just finding ways to minimize the damage from blastmasters (spread out, try to be in a line so any forward/backward scatter makes it miss entirely, get a 2+ save character to tank for you) and hit him back with lots of AP2 S7 with or without rad grenade support and/or a vindicator should work well. Seems like his defiler you've got sorted.

Oh and Lucius is terrible btw. Get a single thunder hammer sergeant in cc with him. His 4 attacks [that's all he will have because your WS is 4] should bounce off your 2+ save and though you'll lose an attack to his whip, if you can roll a 4+ and a 2+ and he fails one save, squish he goes. Don't forget preferred enemy.

A LR Piniata of DOOM

Unfortunately I can't get any other weapon on my TDA Sarge... Makes him kinda useless imo.

The point requirements for this are brutal...

What I so far have/want/like/filtrated out for general usage:

Belial (I need something to be able to score)
Librarian on a bike (unlock the RW Command Squad /w Gren launcher)

DW Knights in a LR Redeemer
2 Squads TDA /w Plasma Cannon

Vindicator
Predator /w Las Loadout

Devastator Squad (ML) behind an Aegis Line /w Quad gun (helldrakes)

That alone is very close to 2k points and is basically a DW Army with Vehicles. And a bit RW. Which I like How would this in an unknown meta in general fare? I don't want to spend TOO much cash on specialising against a single enemy (though he in reality is my preferred one )

Guess I'll be "forced" to make a RW Army so I can really appreciate that stuff too

Honestly I found that the biggest problem when I play Noise Marines is that they must be stationary to be effective.
So they must be in plain sight and have a damn well sight of the battlefield from turn 1, otherwise you are wasting their deadly (and costly) weapons for 1 or 2 turns.
If I start first, then the opponent usually deploys out of view or at least in such a way to reduce damage to a minimum.
If I start second, they get shot by most of the opponent's army.

I usually play 2x10 NMs with 2 Blastmasters and Icon of Excess, but against skilled opponents they usually hide in the first turn and charge them usually in the third turn.
Another problem is that they do really struggle against lots of Front AV 13+ armor or wave serpents (because of no penetrating hits).

Yes, they end up doing some damage, but I had several matches when I felt they did not deal enough damage to justify their cost (2 such units are 540 points...), so I'm experimenting with alternatives for games under 2000 points

I always use two squads of 10, I just don't invest in the fnp banner (I never roll that damn 5+!)