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So assuming we are playing a DelDar list which deathstar do you prefer?

Baron and two Farseers can go in either Jetseer council or a beastpack. Now the council is 450 points with eight warlocks whereas 5 Beastmasters, 10 Khyms and 6 Razors are 270 points. Much less. Despite them being beasts the council still has better mobiity although both are pretty good. Bothe have the Baron for hit and run, 2++ tanking wounds (dependent on what you run) jink for the bikes and just stealth shrouded for the pack. Both have grenades as well. So breaking it down and comparing effectiveness against various units which would you run?

Definitely prefer seer council. I like beastpack but right now the more comp option is definitely the council.

Why are they so much more competative? The point cost makes beast packs spectacularly well priced and would do better in assault against almost everything except maybe monstrous creatures...

I'd go with the beast pack... except that you then have to purchase some troops for Dark eldar (min 90 points) and I'd rather spend more points on regular eldar.

Seer council...because the beast pack is completely wrecked by a couple wave serpents. Relying on a great cover save isn't the way to go anymore.

Also, to have similar survivability, you would need both Invisibility and Fortune. The Seer Council only needs Fortune (and even without Fortune, Protect can make them pretty durable).

The Seer Council also gets supportive/offensive tricks like Horrify and Jinx.

Well the Seer council also uses the Baron often enough and I did say playing DelDar where he would be included so the DE 'troop tax' applies to both. The Seer counncil should be a bit better than the beastpack considering the quite appreciable point difference.

So we are left with cover saves not being what they i=once were. Of course we design the pack now to have some ablative wounds and it is quick enough to be in assault turn two and can still tank a few wounds so ... we can mitigate some cover deficiencies IF we roll badly on the Seers.

I'll tell you why the seer council is superior: Psychic Powers. Each warlock is a force-multiplier, thus making the entire seer council a tour-de-force. 1 application of Terrify and 1-2 Horrify's will screw up the beastpack's day anyday. Then you've got the other powers that makes the seer council so much more dangerous - Protect/Conceal on the Council, Jinx/Reveal on enemy units, Renewer on nearby wraithknights, etc.

The seer council may be "only" 450-pts, but the buffs it gives to the rest of the army as well as the threat the deathstar itself represents makes it easily more powerful than even some units costing up to 2x as much as it does.

To me, it isn't even close.

The problem with Seer Council is that you have to build your list around it, whereas Beastpack can be a cheap throwaway distraction. It's enough of a threat to warrant focus-fire but cheap enough to leave you to branch out into other offensive options in your army.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
The problem with Seer Council is that you have to build your list around it, whereas Beastpack can be a cheap throwaway distraction. It's enough of a threat to warrant focus-fire but cheap enough to leave you to branch out into other offensive options in your army.

All deathstar builds need to have the "right" army build around them. They're so points-heavy that the rest of the army needs to be able to address their deficiencies. However, a deathstar army built properly is a powerful army indeed. A properly built beastpack list is a good army. However, a properly built seer council list is a top-tier build and probably the most powerful army in the game currently.

While re-rollable 2+ save and cover is certainly obnoxious, I haven't actually seen any Seer Councils winning GTs recently though?

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
While re-rollable 2+ save and cover is certainly obnoxious, I haven't actually seen any Seer Councils winning GTs recently though?

People are just discovering about them recently. A friend of mine, Grant Theft Auto, has been winning a lot of the local RTT's with his seer council deldar. Also, I believe Matt DeFranza's Seer Council build was runner-up to Justin Cook's Osheva'star at Adepticon. Finally, at the most recent DaBoyz GT, Alan Barajmovic, took 1st with his seer council. You know who took 2nd? Tony Kopach....also running a seer council build.

After their wins, the seer council is going to come into the spotlight BIG time.

 jy2 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
While re-rollable 2+ save and cover is certainly obnoxious, I haven't actually seen any Seer Councils winning GTs recently though?

People are just discovering about them recently. A friend of mine, Grant Theft Auto, has been winning a lot of the local RTT's with his seer council deldar. Also, I believe Matt DeFranza's Seer Council build was runner-up to Justin Cook's Osheva'star at Adepticon. Finally, at the most recent DaBoyz GT, Alan Barajmovic, took 1st with his seer council. You know who took 2nd? Tony Kopach....also running a seer council build.

After their wins, the seer council is going to come into the spotlight BIG time.

I think Da Boyz was unique because comp nerfed alot of normal builds, and since Seer Council is probably the single most powerful non-spam build in the game it's unsurprising it took top positions. It's been around for a long time, Seer Council is probably the oldest competitive Eldar build.

Enclave-stars properly built however can definitely give it a run for the money.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
While re-rollable 2+ save and cover is certainly obnoxious, I haven't actually seen any Seer Councils winning GTs recently though?

People are just discovering about them recently. A friend of mine, Grant Theft Auto, has been winning a lot of the local RTT's with his seer council deldar. Also, I believe Matt DeFranza's Seer Council build was runner-up to Justin Cook's Osheva'star at Adepticon. Finally, at the most recent DaBoyz GT, Alan Barajmovic, took 1st with his seer council. You know who took 2nd? Tony Kopach....also running a seer council build.

After their wins, the seer council is going to come into the spotlight BIG time.

I think Da Boyz was unique because comp nerfed alot of normal builds, and since Seer Council is probably the single most powerful non-spam build in the game it's unsurprising it took top positions. It's been around for a long time, Seer Council is probably the oldest competitive Eldar build.

Enclave-stars properly built however can definitely give it a run for the money.

Spammed or not, it is a powerful build that can take on both types of armies. It's not perfect and can be susceptible to alpha-strike armies who are going 1st, but believe me, it is almost impossible to beat once it gets going and especially if it gets Fortune. The Enclave-star is top-tier, that's for sure, but its greatest weakness is a super-fast and highly durable army. That means daemons and the seer council deldar. Yes, the seer council is a foil to one of the best armies in the game currently.

Let me share my experiences against the 2 builds. Keep in mind that this is only anecdotal, but it is the reason why I feel the way that I do about the 2 deathstars. I've played against both deathstars and am quite familiar with them both. I hate the seer council. It is one of the toughest builds to play against and is the only army that I have a losing record against in 6th. On the other hand, I've never lost against the beaststar (except when it was paired along with the seer council in a dual deathstar deldar build). I've struggled to kill the seer council in most of my games and in several of them, barely even scratched it. There is just no way for my armies to get around their re-rollable saves. I've never had any problems destroying the beaststar. With my night scythes, I just come in from the direction where he isn't getting cover and/or where the Baron isn't. With my flyrants, I use precision shots to insta-kill his razorflocks. FMC's (i.e. Tzeentch daemons, flyrants) can fly to any location that is a weak point of the beaststar and then shoot them down. There is just so many ways to exploit the beaststar. The seer council is much, much harder to do unless you bring an alpha-strike army and manage to go 1st or he fails to get Fortune. Also, their psychic powers are a beast. The beaststar will have problems against high toughness Fearless builds. With the seer council, everything is wounding on a 2+ and against Fearless units, cast Terrify, multi-charge the tough unit and a "soft" target (i.e. vehicles, MSU troops, whatever) and then sweep both with combat resolution. Bye bye necron wraithstar. See you, termagants + Swarmlord. Ciao wraithknight + guardians or wave serpent. Heck, Horrify + Terrify is one of the nastiest combinations in the game. Cast it and you can even cause some shenanigans with wave serpent tank shocks, not to mention the seer council assaults. Then there's Jinx and Reveal. Thought you could go-to-ground behind the Aegis for 2+ cover? Guess again. Think your riptide, wraithknight, paladinstar, etc. is invincible? Not when they have to make a million saves from wave serpents and DE venoms on 3+ armor (or worse for multiple applications of Jinx....depending on how your area plays it).

It's not the tournament results telling me which deathstar (and deathstar army) is nastier. For that, I've got first-hand experience playing against both builds.

 jy2 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
While re-rollable 2+ save and cover is certainly obnoxious, I haven't actually seen any Seer Councils winning GTs recently though?

People are just discovering about them recently. A friend of mine, Grant Theft Auto, has been winning a lot of the local RTT's with his seer council deldar. Also, I believe Matt DeFranza's Seer Council build was runner-up to Justin Cook's Osheva'star at Adepticon. Finally, at the most recent DaBoyz GT, Alan Barajmovic, took 1st with his seer council. You know who took 2nd? Tony Kopach....also running a seer council build.

After their wins, the seer council is going to come into the spotlight BIG time.

I think Da Boyz was unique because comp nerfed alot of normal builds, and since Seer Council is probably the single most powerful non-spam build in the game it's unsurprising it took top positions. It's been around for a long time, Seer Council is probably the oldest competitive Eldar build.

Enclave-stars properly built however can definitely give it a run for the money.

Spammed or not, it is a powerful build that can take on both types of armies. It's not perfect and can be susceptible to alpha-strike armies who are going 1st, but believe me, it is almost impossible to beat once it gets going and especially if it gets Fortune. The Enclave-star is top-tier, that's for sure, but its greatest weakness is a super-fast and highly durable army. That means daemons and the seer council deldar. Yes, the seer council is a foil to one of the best armies in the game currently.

Let me share my experiences against the 2 builds. Keep in mind that this is only anecdotal, but it is the reason why I feel the way that I do about the 2 deathstars. I've played against both deathstars and am quite familiar with them both. I hate the seer council. It is one of the toughest builds to play against and is the only army that I have a losing record against in 6th. On the other hand, I've never lost against the beaststar (except when it was paired along with the seer council in a dual deathstar deldar build). I've struggled to kill the seer council in most of my games and in several of them, barely even scratched it. There is just no way for my armies to get around their re-rollable saves. I've never had any problems destroying the beaststar. With my night scythes, I just come in from the direction where he isn't getting cover and/or where the Baron isn't. With my flyrants, I use precision shots to insta-kill his razorflocks. FMC's (i.e. Tzeentch daemons, flyrants) can fly to any location that is a weak point of the beaststar and then shoot them down. There is just so many ways to exploit the beaststar. The seer council is much, much harder to do unless you bring an alpha-strike army and manage to go 1st or he fails to get Fortune. Also, their psychic powers are a beast. The beaststar will have problems against high toughness Fearless builds. With the seer council, everything is wounding on a 2+ and against Fearless units, cast Terrify, multi-charge the tough unit and a "soft" target (i.e. vehicles, MSU troops, whatever) and then sweep both with combat resolution. Bye bye necron wraithstar. See you, termagants + Swarmlord. Ciao wraithknight + guardians or wave serpent. Heck, Horrify + Terrify is one of the nastiest combinations in the game. Cast it and you can even cause some shenanigans with wave serpent tank shocks, not to mention the seer council assaults. Then there's Jinx and Reveal. Thought you could go-to-ground behind the Aegis for 2+ cover? Guess again. Think your riptide, wraithknight, paladinstar, etc. is invincible? Not when they have to make a million saves from wave serpents and DE venoms on 3+ armor (or worse for multiple applications of Jinx....depending on how your area plays it).

It's not the tournament results telling me which deathstar (and deathstar army) is nastier. For that, I've got first-hand experience playing against both builds.

The Seerstar relies on cover and armor saves though. I agree it's an excellent build, but unlike the Screamerstar with it's rerollable 2++, an Ion Accelerator Riptide with markerlight or Buffmander support can absolutely do damage to a Seerstar. The 2+ rerollable cover save would be ignored, the 2+ or 3+ rerollable armor save would be ignored, and you'd be down to relying on a rerollable 4++.

Now, of course, that's still far from bad, but it's not the invincible unit everyone else faces and you could very easily suffer critical losses as each dead model takes a psychic power with it.

Lanlaorn wrote:

The Seerstar relies on cover and armor saves though. I agree it's an excellent build, but unlike the Screamerstar with it's rerollable 2++, an Ion Accelerator Riptide with markerlight or Buffmander support can absolutely do damage to a Seerstar. The 2+ rerollable cover save would be ignored, the 2+ or 3+ rerollable armor save would be ignored, and you'd be down to relying on a rerollable 4++.

Now, of course, that's still far from bad, but it's not the invincible unit everyone else faces and you could very easily suffer critical losses as each dead model takes a psychic power with it.

The screamerstar compares better to the seer council than the beastpacks. But as someone who runs a screamerstar as well, I am of the opinion that the seer council is still superior to the screamerstar. Why? Because the screamerstar has too many points of failure.

1. It relies on the Grimoire going off. Even with Fateweaver there, there is a 1 in 9 chance of failing and that increases when you kill Fatey.

2. If relies on the screamerstar getting Forewarning, which IMO is actually harder to get than Fortune. Why? Because you want to leave 1 power for Flickering Fire. Thus, you're only getting 2 rolls to try to get Forewarning whereas a farseer can blow his load on Runes of Fate in order to try to get Fortune (not really advisable, but I've seen people do it).

3. You need to pay the "Fateweaver" tax in addition to the Heralds.

4. They can be locked in combat with tarpit units.

5. They have problems against high Toughness units, like the wraithknights or an Iron Armed DP/tyranid MC.

6. Their offense is more susceptible to psychic defense. Want to use Flickering Fire? I'm denying it on a 4+/5+ with a psyker in my unit.

7. The model with the Grimoire itself can be killed. If he is the Herald in the screamerstar, then he doesn't benefit from the Grimoire itself. Precision strikes (i.e. flyrant shooting) and barrage sniping and a failed LOS can mean no more Grimoire.

8. Damage output from assault is just too low. Sure, it'll beat medium to weaker units in assault, but it won't do much to Fearless units, tough units or dedicated assault units in combat. It's output becomes especially weak when it tries to multi-assault.


Not many units can bypass both re-rollable 2+ and re-rollable 2+ cover, but for those that can there is still a re-rollable 4++. That means only 1 out of every 4 lascannon/thunderhammer wounds is going through against the seer council. Those are not good odds and then next turn, the council will be assaulting the riptide. The only build that can get through the seer council is massed AP2 that also ignores cover. Only 1 unit can do this reliably - the Farsight bomb packing plasmas. No other build can and honestly, no TAC build currently spams AP2 guns anymore either. S6/7 AP4 autocannon-type guns are the new "plasmas".

What has not been mentioned is the footprint each has on that each has on the table. First a beastpack with 2 Seers, Baron, 5 Beastmasters, 10 Khyms and 6 Razors almost fills your deployment zone - it also has a 75% chance of fortune and lots of excellent telepathy powers are available. So it is pretty easy to swing those Seers into supporting positions, prevent drop pods from getting in your zone, restrict flyer movement (we will assume other units will add to this). Twenty-four mosels on 40 mm bases deployed art max coherency really fills the table.Now when bikes were 60 mm base they could to but now they are 40 mm and your squad is 10-12 strong. Just thought I would add that ...

Mark_Autarch wrote:
Why are they so much more competative? The point cost makes beast packs spectacularly well priced and would do better in assault against almost everything except maybe monstrous creatures...

I'd go with the beast pack... except that you then have to purchase some troops for Dark eldar (min 90 points) and I'd rather spend more points on regular eldar.

but if you dont take the DE then you cannot have the baron. So no stealth, no grenades, no 2++, no hit and run, no +1 to go first, no night vision and no fearless.

For allies you only need 1 troop, so the minimum is 45 points. Of course that doesnt get you much, but adding in a venom with dual cannons isnt going to go to waste.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 felixcat wrote:
What has not been mentioned is the footprint each has on that each has on the table. First a beastpack with 2 Seers, Baron, 5 Beastmasters, 10 Khyms and 6 Razors almost fills your deployment zone - it also has a 75% chance of fortune and lots of excellent telepathy powers are available. So it is pretty easy to swing those Seers into supporting positions, prevent drop pods from getting in your zone, restrict flyer movement (we will assume other units will add to this). Twenty-four mosels on 40 mm bases deployed art max coherency really fills the table.Now when bikes were 60 mm base they could to but now they are 40 mm and your squad is 10-12 strong. Just thought I would add that ...

excellent point

also with the bikes, you can FF baron because he lacks a jink save. With the beast pack, you can only FF off of the farseers.

Why are they so much more competative? The point cost makes beast packs spectacularly well priced and would do better in assault against almost everything except maybe monstrous creatures...

I'd go with the beast pack... except that you then have to purchase some troops for Dark eldar (min 90 points) and I'd rather spend more points on regular eldar.

The Seer Council is an absurd unit in the hands of a skilled player. The reasons why it is so good:

-Speed (obvious)

-Versatility-it can engage almost any unit in the game without fear.

-Special rules-easy access to hit and run, grenades, and fearless (Shard).

-Psychic Powers-not only can it buff itself, but it can use Warlock powers to de-buff others. This is often under-looked.

-Durability-easy access to a 2+ armor, 2+ cover, 4+ invulnerable---all rerollable. Furthermore, the Baron gives them a default 2++ to lead the unit

-Contesting--another huge and under-looked element. As long as they have Baron, 2 Seers, and one Warlock left alive, the unit can split into four in order to contest end game. Of course, three of these can go 48"


I played the Council for ~15 games using the old codex in 6th before deciding the unit was too cheesy and un-fun for both me and my opponents. The 6th edition codex has not only made the unit better, but also the supporting cast. While the Beastpack can be good, when comparing it to a flat-out broken unit, there is no competition. Say what you will about DaBoyz and comp, but this past weekend showed what good players can do with this list. DeFranza has been doing it for some time as well.

While there are a good amount of overly efficient units in 40k (Serpents, Drakes, Riptides, ect), these units can at least be killed. Nothing is worse for the game than a 2+ re-rollable save IMO.

I noticed that no one mentions how the beastpack protects itself best. You want the pack in cc turn two. If you falnk it with a paitr of WKs and maybe some Warp spiders charging forward it is very possible to pull this off and just move from combat to combat. All the tricks used to stop them are nerfed. Just hit and run, fortune and pgl are really needed. So you could cast some powers on other squads too with your Seers.

Beast pack is very popular here in the UK tourney scene, in fact, more so than the seer council. 25 khymera has a hell of a foot print.

25 khymera, Baron, Eldrad, Farseer with shard is 825 points for the maxed out unit, very similar cost to the seer council and has a slightly higher chance to get fortune than the typical 2 jetseers.

It trades 2+ reroll for board control basically.

 felixcat wrote:

I noticed that no one mentions how the beastpack protects itself best. You want the pack in cc turn two. If you falnk it with a paitr of WKs and maybe some Warp spiders charging forward it is very possible to pull this off and just move from combat to combat. All the tricks used to stop them are nerfed. Just hit and run, fortune and pgl are really needed. So you could cast some powers on other squads too with your Seers.

What happens when you wipe someone out (with either a clean kill or sweeping advance) and end up out of combat? What happens if your opponent has Hit and Run as well? Even with Fortune and Stealth the Beast pack is pretty squishy, 4+ re-rollable cover (which is what you get most of the time, expecting both Fortune and Invis is a bit ambitious) on a T3 model is about as hard to kill as a Marine. The Council basically doesn't care with a 2+ normal and 2+ cover to fall back on.

Its also important to note that there is plenty of stuff which the Beast pack simply cannot handle, what happens when you run into something that can ruin you in assault? A couple of rounds of combat (before you Hit and Run out) would be enough for a unit of Paladins or similar deathstar unit to completely wreck you. A council on the other hand is far harder to do anything to - 2+ saves block any non Axe/Fist power weapons and you are usually hitting first and getting more wounds through.

Well if you play a beast star you probably want to practice movement and manipulation. If you understand what you can kill or not it's fairly easy to increase your chances of not winning combats on the charge. The leaders themselves are weak and have low number of attacks so if you slide them forward you make it pretty guarnteed that you only do like 1 wound, which most opponents can reciprocate with.

I also find it funny that people in this thread assume the council will have all the powers it wants and the beasts won't. Both can easily have 2 seers. And both will likely have a shadow field. So once combat hits it's pretty moot
Also while it is likely that the warlocks will get protect with 10 rolls its not a guarntee that they cast it every turn. The beasts will also more likely have anti deathstar powers of terrify and hallucinate as they roll on the telepathy tree looking for invisibility, while fortune is the goal of the seer council.

I think both are viable choices. I personally run beast unit and while I agree that the council might have less bad matchups I think the beast list or my list matches up well with one of the main seer brand lists, less so with the wave serpent one.

I think one unit that might be funny against seer and screamer stars in hellions with the wargear that lets you snatch ic out o combat. Snatch te grimoirr guy or fortune seer out of the unit and see what happens.

Jpr wrote:
Beast pack is very popular here in the UK tourney scene, in fact, more so than the seer council. 25 khymera has a hell of a foot print.

25 khymera, Baron, Eldrad, Farseer with shard is 825 points for the maxed out unit, very similar cost to the seer council and has a slightly higher chance to get fortune than the typical 2 jetseers.

It trades 2+ reroll for board control basically.

This is why I think Beastpack is stronger than Seer Council.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

OrdoSean wrote:
Well if you play a beast star you probably want to practice movement and manipulation. If you understand what you can kill or not it's fairly easy to increase your chances of not winning combats on the charge. The leaders themselves are weak and have low number of attacks so if you slide them forward you make it pretty guarnteed that you only do like 1 wound, which most opponents can reciprocate with.

I also find it funny that people in this thread assume the council will have all the powers it wants and the beasts won't. Both can easily have 2 seers. And both will likely have a shadow field. So once combat hits it's pretty moot
Also while it is likely that the warlocks will get protect with 10 rolls its not a guarntee that they cast it every turn. The beasts will also more likely have anti deathstar powers of terrify and hallucinate as they roll on the telepathy tree looking for invisibility, while fortune is the goal of the seer council.

I think both are viable choices. I personally run beast unit and while I agree that the council might have less bad matchups I think the beast list or my list matches up well with one of the main seer brand lists, less so with the wave serpent one.

I think one unit that might be funny against seer and screamer stars in hellions with the wargear that lets you snatch ic out o combat. Snatch te grimoirr guy or fortune seer out of the unit and see what happens.

Well it doesn't work against the Fortune Seer as he just casts fortune on the unit and joins it later... it's great for Screamerstar though as the Grimiore holder is so squishy.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:


Well it doesn't work against the Fortune Seer as he just casts fortune on the unit and joins it later... it's great for Screamerstar though as the Grimiore holder is so squishy.

It works the same for the grimoire... and the seer council they both can cast their buff on a unit other then themselves. THe point is then the one dude is locked in combat with your unit and hopefully some killer characters.

Basically it means you can get that buff guy alone and kill him so the buff is gone for the rest of the game. Its a slow play, because odds are you can charge turn 2, so if you go first then you kill the buff guy on bottom of 2, the unit will still have the buff up for bottom of 2 and top of 3. But come bottom of 3 until the end of the game you have eliminated the major buff for the unit.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:

Jpr wrote:
Beast pack is very popular here in the UK tourney scene, in fact, more so than the seer council. 25 khymera has a hell of a foot print.

25 khymera, Baron, Eldrad, Farseer with shard is 825 points for the maxed out unit, very similar cost to the seer council and has a slightly higher chance to get fortune than the typical 2 jetseers.

It trades 2+ reroll for board control basically.

This is why I think Beastpack is stronger than Seer Council.

Indeed the real strength of the beast pack is that you can run it as a very large unit, string it out across the whole board almost and basically multi-assault most of the opponents army in a single charge.

Right. The council has always been annoying, but it's damage output peaks fairly low IMO. People are definitely assuming much thinking that the council will always have the right powers and that they will always go off. Using a farseers three rolls is no guarantee to grab fortune, and both seers can very easily both swing and miss. Assuming that they will have fortune, prescience and terrify is just too ambitious. Shadows and rune weapons also have a good shot at shutting them down.

Also lets not forget the title of the thread isn't just which build beats more face. I find it annoying so many people push for the more obnoxious build for the opponent. Nobody likes rolling dice and watching it do absolutely nothing, for that reason alone I refuse to touch rerollable 2+ saves, heck I think rerollable 3+ and 4++ is too annoying to face which is why I didn't use it before.

Also it is interesting to note that there are many different ways to play the pack. Karandras/Vect/25 Khyms is brytal on the charge, can multi-assault both vehicles and infantry, will take down 10 TH/SS termies in two turns. It has tanking ICs and 4+ inv so does not rely on any psychic buffs either. It can infiltrate (if you play it that way - we will not debate this now) and regardless has a decent chance of multi-assaulting turn two and tying up 3/4 of your opponents army. It is just too bad that is more expensive even than a Seer council, lol.