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Ok, I see what you mean with Legion, changed to 3+ - 5+. Don't want to give them FnP as that's the Death Guards main thing (besides T5)

As said earlier, I don't really want to do too much to possessed for now except make them cheaper, I may do other stuff but for now it will probably just be a points decrease.

I still don't think Zealot on Characters is too much, however if I find it really is, I'll likely change it so Characters gain Hatred (though this doesn't really change the whole cultist-support-reroll-character-killer thing, which isn't really that big of an issue as it really is terrible, slow and unwieldy tactic)

Renegades and Emperror's children seem to get mediocre traits compared to others also.
Emperror's children with fleet? Who'll use it? Spawns with a lord/sorc only. Fleet is not that deciding when you ride in a land-raider and that's by far the only delivery system for mellee units that ain't bykes,beasts or fmc.

Possesed should see their unit type changed to Beasts, i mean...look at their models, Hooves, WIngs and stuff...

Giving Zealot to the IC in a WB army isn't that overpowered, it is at best most of the time 2 Characters in the army, at worst with double FOC 4 Characters, thats not that big.

The rest of the WB units might get something like "Fanatisme- give the models Stubborn and Crusader USR"

I've tried out possessed as they are but for 18 pt cost. 10 possessed. Without transport but with a sorc. Slow like all the footslogas. They spent the whole game running forward, than they destroyed a rhino and almost killed a 10-strong tac squad over 2 turns. And that's with sorc and endurance. Not very impressive really. But they'll have their uses. 5++ and fearless is not that bad. But i don't see them very useful cause they have literally no options. Just max 2 mutations for a champ that are rarely of any use and cost 10 each. And they can't have ap2 and any ranged weapons.
On the whole, even 18 pts is too much for what they do really. I mean a regular sm squad usually does more for me. They desperately need some buff and not just a point decrease. They need to get faster to pose any threat. +3' run move would have been nice. If they had it and 18 pt cost - they'd be playable. Mediocre but still playable.

Changing them to beasts is making them compete with spawns. Which they couldn't do even being beasts even at their current state. Also, i might be wrong but i think that beasts can't score.

My thoughts on possessed - Keep them at current point cost, give them 2 wounds, T5. Bam. They're fine.

Tanky. Slow. Medium hitting power.

Maybe a wings upgrade to give them jump infantry? Or something which would allow them to Deep Strike (going through the warp and all)?

Iron Warriors Siege breakers
Unit: Infantry (5 models)
Troops choice

WS 4

BS 4

S 4

T 4

W 1

I 4

A 1

LD 9

SV 3+/6+ FNP

Wargear: Bolter, Bolt pistol, Frag and Krak grenades, Power armour, Bionics

Options:
For every 5 models in the unit you may take 1 of the following heavy weapons

Heavy Bolter 5pts

Autocannon 10pts

Multi-melta 10pts

Heavy Flamer 10pts

Missile launcher 15pts
Flakk for 5pts

Lascannon 20pts

For every 5 models in the unit you may take 1 of the following Special weapons

Flamer 5pts

Meltagun 10pts

plasmagun 15pts


A single model may be upgraded to a Siege Breaker (aspiring champion)
for 25pts, The siege breaker has the Prefered enemy "buildings" and "Tank" special Rule, this confers to
his unit.

The siege breaker may take any normal equipment allowed to an aspiring champion in additin it may take
items from the "special weapons" list for the points listed there.

Iron warriors Siege Rhino
Type Tank, heavy
45pts
1-3
Heavy Support
HP3
FR 11
S 11
R 11
Weapons: Combi bolter, Havoc launcher
Wargear: Siege shield
Fire points: 5 Top hatch
Acess points: 1 Rear
Special rules: The iron Wall: A siege rhino may move into contact with another siege Rhino, if it does so
both siege rhinos are treated as imobilised vehicles from that point on, A siege Rhino that is in contact
with another siege Rhino adds 2 to its front and side armour and gains the armoured ceramite special rule.

Any penetrating or glancing hit done to the Siege Rhino rolls on the Building damage table, any model that
gains bonus's to damaging buildings treats the linked siege rhinos as buildings for damage purposes

A Single predetor Tank may also move into contact with the siege Rhino and will will gain the Iron wall
special rule

(clarification, 1 predetor per siege rhino may benefit, so 2 siege rhinos in contact with a single predetor
will confer the benefit, or 1 predetor and 1 siege rhino, 2 predetors and a single siege rhino will
confer benefit to a single predetor, the controlling player must declare which)

Just to help

Well, i had a debate with ex-berzerker player, he said they are balls-out expensive with chainaxes... Yes but what are chainaxes going to do? Chop up tau, necron warriors and scouts, which can be killed in CC with wet fish... Also about berzerkers vs CSM with MoK, you pay 4 points extra berzerkers and you getv WS 5, furious charge And fearless... About charging, where they Are supposed to be... take 35x cultists, form them in a LONG line so berzerkers get 5+ coversave... Whn doing so take 20 of them and an icon, so they can reroll charge range, and 10/9 berzerker with a lord in a LR... About thousand sons... No idea, never saw them in action, everyone says they suck and since i never saw them on table, yup i am going to keep silent on the subject.

 koooaei wrote:
I've tried out possessed as they are but for 18 pt cost. 10 possessed. Without transport but with a sorc. Slow like all the footslogas. They spent the whole game running forward, than they destroyed a rhino and almost killed a 10-strong tac squad over 2 turns. And that's with sorc and endurance. Not very impressive really. But they'll have their uses. 5++ and fearless is not that bad. But i don't see them very useful cause they have literally no options. Just max 2 mutations for a champ that are rarely of any use and cost 10 each. And they can't have ap2 and any ranged weapons.
On the whole, even 18 pts is too much for what they do really. I mean a regular sm squad usually does more for me. They desperately need some buff and not just a point decrease. They need to get faster to pose any threat. +3' run move would have been nice. If they had it and 18 pt cost - they'd be playable. Mediocre but still playable.

Changing them to beasts is making them compete with spawns. Which they couldn't do even being beasts even at their current state. Also, i might be wrong but i think that beasts can't score.

18 points is the points cost for Chosen, and they don't have the Deamon rule and +1 S, they have on the other hand more options, even if those options are overcosted.

Plus competing with the Spawns? how so?, spawns can be made T6 models, with S5 1D6 A per model and 3 Wound per model, and are cheaper then Possesed, its enough to not make them redundant and a viable second choice.

So you have two units that while technically they do the same are still different enough to impose a choice, MEQ beast with Invul models but who are a bit costier in Points? or a unit of Cheaper, harder to Wound, higher Wound pool but with no saves beast models?

peeps who like to play Spawns would still be using them, and peeps who wants to use Possesed has a reason to finaly use them.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
I've tried out possessed as they are but for 18 pt cost. 10 possessed. Without transport but with a sorc. Slow like all the footslogas. They spent the whole game running forward, than they destroyed a rhino and almost killed a 10-strong tac squad over 2 turns. And that's with sorc and endurance. Not very impressive really. But they'll have their uses. 5++ and fearless is not that bad. But i don't see them very useful cause they have literally no options. Just max 2 mutations for a champ that are rarely of any use and cost 10 each. And they can't have ap2 and any ranged weapons.
On the whole, even 18 pts is too much for what they do really. I mean a regular sm squad usually does more for me. They desperately need some buff and not just a point decrease. They need to get faster to pose any threat. +3' run move would have been nice. If they had it and 18 pt cost - they'd be playable. Mediocre but still playable.

Changing them to beasts is making them compete with spawns. Which they couldn't do even being beasts even at their current state. Also, i might be wrong but i think that beasts can't score.

18 points is the points cost for Chosen, and they don't have the Deamon rule and +1 S, they have on the other hand more options, even if those options are overcosted.

Plus competing with the Spawns? how so?, spawns can be made T6 models, with S5 1D6 A per model and 3 Wound per model, and are cheaper then Possesed, its enough to not make them redundant and a viable second choice.

So you have two units that while technically they do the same are still different enough to impose a choice, MEQ beast with Invul models but who are a bit costier in Points? or a unit of Cheaper, harder to Wound, higher Wound pool but with no saves beast models?

peeps who like to play Spawns would still be using them, and peeps who wants to use Possesed has a reason to finaly use them.

And spawns are still so much better than possessed. U won't see them tabletop. Just like nobz. They're not bad but are outperformed by boyz and while filling the same role and doing the exact same thing, you don't see regular nobz running around while see lotsa boyz while nobz apear only in exceptional situations where they're required for an extra battlewagon or the player is going extremely casual. If you make possessed beasts, they'd fill the exact same role and do the exact same thing as spawns. But worse. 3+/5++ is not nearly as good as +1t, +2w.

Now what would make them worthwile is both lowering the cost and buffing them. And if they get extra speed, they can be nice footslogas. Not making them as fast as spawns, no. Just adding something like a 3' extra run. Or crusader usr. Something like that. So what i see can be done:

Possessed [18 ppm]: t4, s5, ws4, bs4, ini4, w1, a2, sv 3+/5++, ld9
One model per squad can be upgraded to a Possessed champion [+10 ppm]: t4, s5, ws4, bs4, ini4, w2, a3, sv3+/5++, ld9
Squad size 5-20 models
Can be taken as Troops if the detachment includes Dark Apostle.

Daemons, Fearless, Fleet, Vessels of Chaos, Swift

Swift - gain Move through Cover and add 3' for running moves

Vessels of chaos - can not be joined by independent characters without gift of mutation. Count as Bulky for the purpose of transport capacity because they can't sit still untill they're tied up. Models with Vessels of Chaos rule can gain powers from the table below. The power can be nominated at the beginning of a controlling player's movement phase. It is active until the beginning of controlling player's next movement phase. The same power can't be nominated if it has allready been in use in the previous turn.
-Unholy resilience: gain FNP and are not slowed down by difficult terrain, still make dangerous terrain tests and suffer ini penalties if charge through difficult terrain.
-Unholy might: gain Rending for their mellee attacks
-Unholy swiftness: gain +1A, +1Ini, do not suffer Ini penalties for charging through difficult terrain

So, what do you think? Bulky is needed cause they're not bad in mellee now with reliable rending or +1a +1ini. And considereing their pointscost they can be too effective as land-raider retinue. And i can't imagine a possessed individual being reasonable enough to be patient and not run around the place.
Maybe add a few oldschool upgrades like warp flamers or wings that improve movement. Any suggestions? I see them as good now. What do you think? Don't know about marks though. Think they must not be allowed to take them. Cause they're daemons and chaos marks make them marked daemons thus adding stuff like rerolls failed saves of a 1.

About Emperor's Children - Perhaps their VotLW should give them hatred/preferred enemy versus Eldar/Dark Eldar instead? I can see reason for both keeping it as is, and changing it up really.

A bit of thread necro, hoping it will be OK seeming I'm the OP and its only mean a few months.

Sorry I haven't done much recently, life happened.

However, it's starting to die down again and I've done a few little things...

First, work on the Legion Traits:

Legion Traits:

Red Corsairs:

Spoiler:

Anarchy and Piracy
Gains Hit & Run.

The Strongest Remain Strong Alone
Gain Stubborn. May re-roll failed Pinning tests.

Renegades:

Spoiler:

Alone in the Storm
Characters may re-roll the failed leadership test to see if they must issue/accept challenges. Additionally, all models have the Combat Squads special rule from Codex: Space Marines.

Into the Darkness
May re-roll failed Morale and Pinning tests.

World Eaters:

Spoiler:

Blood for the Blood God!
Must take MoK. Gains Furious Charge. Characters gain an extra D3+1 Attacks in a Challenge. Bezerkers without Terminator Armour may be taken as troops.

The Great Heresy
Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless

Emperor’s Children:

Spoiler:

Perfection and Ecstasy
Must take MoS. All models have the Fleet and Feel No Pain (6+) special rules. Characters gain the Rending special rule while in a challenge. Noise Marines without Terminator Armour are troops.

The Great Heresy
Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless

Death Guard:

Spoiler:

Plague and Putrescence
Must take MoN. Models are I3 and have the Slow and Purposeful special rule but gain Feel No Pain (4+). Characters gain the Posion (4+) special rule while in challenges. Plague Marines without Terminator Armour are troops.

The Great Heresy
Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless

Thousand Sons:

Spoiler:

Forbidden Sorcery
Must take MoT. All non-Character models have the Legion of Dust special rule. Psykers may roll their powers from any of the BRB Disciplines. Characters may take +1 Mastery level for 25pts (maximum of 4). Characters may re-roll failed Invulnerable and armour saves while in a challenge. Thousand Sons without Terminator Armour are troops.

The Great Heresy
Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless

Night Lords:

Spoiler:

Fear Incarnate
Gains Night Vision and Fear. If primary detachment, Night Fighting always occurs on the First Turn. Raptors are troops.

The Great Heresy
Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless

Alpha Legion:

Spoiler:

Sons of Alpharius
Gains Infiltrate. Characters have 2+ LoS. If Primary Detachment, Seize Initiative on 4+

The Great Heresy
Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless

Iron Warriors:

Spoiler:

Iron Within, Iron Without
Helbrutes may be taken as Heavy Support choices as well as Elites and Predators, Vindicators, Forgefiends and Maulerfiends may be taken as Elites as well as Heavy Support. All models have the Tank Hunter special rule and add 1 to the armour penetration roll when targeting Forifications.

The Great Heresy
Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless

Word Bearers:

Spoiler:

Gift of the Gods
Before deployment, all Characters must roll upon the Power Chaos Boon Table, re-rolling all Spawndom and Dark Apotheosis results. In addition, all Independent Characters have the Zealot special rule. Chaos Space Marine Possessed may be taken as Troops and Elites. If they are taken as an Elites choice they may be upgraded with Terminator Armour for 15pts per model.

The Great Heresy
Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless

Black Legion:

Spoiler:

Death to the False Emperor
All models have the Crusader special rule. The Warlord has the Zealot and Preferred Enemy (Imperium) special rule. Additionally, every Character may re-roll one extra die in a challenge if its opponent is an Imperial Character. Chosen are Troops.

The Great Heresy
Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless

Main changes are too Renegades, Emperor's Children, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers and Black Legion. All look good? Not entirely sure how many points Termi Armour on possessed should cost. I made it 15 as that's the cost or artificer armour in the SM dex (as possessed have no need for relentless and already have a 5++)

Speaking of Possessed...

Possessed........110pts

Spoiler:

Possessed (Infantry)
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T4
W 1
I 4
A 2
Ld 9
Sv 3+

Possessed Champion (Infantry, Character)
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T4
W 1
I 4
A 2
Ld 9
Sv 3+

Unit Composition: 4 Possessed, 1 Possessed Champion

Wargear: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon

Special Rules: Champion of Chaos (Champion only), Daemon, Fearless, Fleet, Vessels of Chaos, Move Through Cover, Rending

Options:
-May add up to 15 Possessed...22 pts/model
-The Possessed Champion may take up to two Gifts of Mutation...10 pts each
-The unit may take one of the following Marks of Chaos:
--Mark of Khorne...2 pts/model
--Mark of Tzeentch...4 pts/model
--Mark of Nurgle...3 pts/model
--Mark of Slaanesh... 2 pts/model
-One model may purchase one of the following Chaos Icons:
--Icon of Wrath...15 pts
--Icon of Flame...5 pts
--Icon of Despair...5 pts
--Icon of Excess...35 pts
--Icon of Vengeance...5 pts
-The unit may take the Veterans of the Long War special rule...2 pts/model
-Every model in the unit may purchase one of the following mutations:
--Additional Limb...2 pts/model
--Fiendish Strength...3 pts/model
--Venomous...3 pts/model
--Ichor...9 pts/model
-The unit may take a Chaos Rhino as a Dedicated Transport



Vessels of Chaos
Before deployment, roll once on the Mutations Chaos Boon Table for each unit with this rule in your army. Every model in that unit gains the result.
Additionally, at the beginning of every Game Turn, roll on the following table:

D3 | Result
1-2 | Arcane Protection: 3+ Invulnerable Save
3-4 | Insane Speed: Beasts, +1 I
5-6 | Vorpal Claws: AP3, Shred

They keep this result until the beginning of the next Game Turn.

How do they look? I hope I've done a satisfactory job with them!

Until Next Time,
Thanks,
M.K

So Black Legion is CT: Black Templars except much better?

Good point, probably should have looked at CT again to refresh my memory.

Ok, how about this?

Black Legion:

Spoiler:

Death to the False Emperor
All models have the Crusader special rule. The Warlord has the Zealot and Preferred Enemy (Imperium) special rule. Additionally, every Character may re-roll one extra die in a challenge if its opponent is an Imperial Character. Chosen are Troops.

The Great Heresy
Must take VotLW. Gains Fearless

Ok, time to go back to Champion of Chaos!

Last time I got praise for the Ld test thing but it was suggested that I should add more.
I didn't want to add anything too powerful to it, however I think I may have come up with a small boost that isn't too OP. I'm currently deciding whether to give all Champions of Chaos this re-roll or just the important ones (Cult Leaders, Chosen Champions, ICs, DPs, Possessed Champions and maybe Warp Talon Champions?)

So:

Champion of Chaos

Spoiler:

At the start of the Fight sub-phase, before any challengers are issued, a model with the Champion of Chaos special rule must take a Leadership test. If the model passes, it may act normally this assault phase. However, if it fails, it must issue and accept a challenge whenever possible this Assault phase.

If multiple friendly models with the Champion of Chaos special rule a participating in the same combat, even if they are part of different units, do not roll individually for each character. Instead, roll one Leadership test against the lowest leadership value among all friendly models with the Champion of Chaos special rule in the same combat. If the test is passed, they may act normally this assault phase. However, if it fails, one of the Champions of Chaos (you chose) must issue and accept a challenge whenever possible this Assault phase.

If a model with the Champion of Chaos special rule slays an enemy Character or Monstrous Creature, roll on the Chaos Boon Table.

Champion of the Gods

Spoiler:

While in a challenge, a model with this special rule gains one extra Moral Support (Get 'Im Boss!) re-roll.

Thinking of icons next. Slaanesh and Khorne will stay the same. Nurgle will be the overwatch/combat protection flies, Tz I'm still unsure of. Psychic Hood is nice but very, very situation.

I'm also going to re-do vengeance because with legion rules you don't need it unless you take Renegades or Red Corsairs...


Thanks,
M.K

Ok... back to Possessed...

take 2:

Possessed........95pts

Spoiler:

Possessed (Infantry)
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T4
W 1
I 4
A 2
Ld 9
Sv 3+

Possessed Champion (Infantry, Character)
WS 4
BS 4
S 5
T4
W 1
I 4
A 2
Ld 9
Sv 3+

Unit Composition: 4 Possessed, 1 Possessed Champion

Wargear: Power Armour, Close Combat Weapon

Special Rules: Champion of Chaos (Champion only), Daemon, Fearless, Vessels of Chaos, Rending, Swift

Options:
-May add up to 15 Possessed...19 pts/model
-The Possessed Champion may take up to two Gifts of Mutation...10 pts each
-The unit may take one of the following Marks of Chaos:
--Mark of Khorne...2 pts/model
--Mark of Tzeentch...4 pts/model
--Mark of Nurgle...3 pts/model
--Mark of Slaanesh... 2 pts/model
-One model may purchase one of the following Chaos Icons:
--Icon of Wrath...15 pts
--Icon of Flame...5 pts
--Icon of Despair...5 pts
--Icon of Excess...35 pts
--Icon of Vengeance...5 pts
-The unit may take the Veterans of the Long War special rule...2 pts/model
-Every model in the unit may purchase the following mutations:
--Additional Limb...2 pts/model
--Fiendish Strength...3 pts/model
--Venomous...3 pts/model
--Ichor...4 pts/model
--Warpflame...3 pts/mode
-The entire unit may become beasts...4 pts/model
-The unit may take a Chaos Rhino as a Dedicated Transport


Warpflame
A model with this mutation may make an attack with the following profile:
Rng: 18" Str 4 AP - Type Assault 1, Soul Blaze, Ignores Cover


Vessels of Chaos
Before deployment, roll once on the Mutations Chaos Boon Table for each unit with this rule in your army. Every model in that unit gains the result.
Additionally, at the beginning of every Game Turn, roll on the following table:

D6 | Result
1-2| Master of the Hunt: +1 WS, Night Vision
3-4| Arcane Protection: 3+ Invulnerable Save
5-6| Vorpal Claws: AP3, Shred

They keep this result until the beginning of the next Game Turn.

Swift
Models with this special rule have Fleet, Move Through Cover and do not suffer the penalty to initiative when charging through cover.

Look better?
Thanks!
M.K

Have you playtested them?

not yet, planning to this weekend

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
A 210pt Heldrake is going to really struggle to get its points back by doing its job (MEQ-hunting). Also, the thing really isn't as scary as people make out. Mine was killed by a lascannon Predator.

Fix Berserkers. Give them axes for free and give their axes Shred. As for Tzeentch psykers, would it be unreasonable for them to generate their Tzeentch power as a free extra? Because seriously, Tzeentch powers suck and there is very little to represent the Changer of Ways' supposed mastery of psychic power.

Not sure what it means but yesterday I noticed that berserkers were removed from the GW site.

Iron warriors should be able to take a basilisk and they should have 6 heavy support slots

Shouldn't CSM be lesser Space Marines? Why not make CSM closer to the actual Legion lists?

Not really, there is no reason why Chaos Space Marines should be lesser. While, yes, the one from the Horus Heresy were made in a rush and not up to the same standards as earlier (and later) marines, they've survived in the warp for millennium.
AS well as that, a good number of CSM aren't from the Horus Heresy, they fell after.
As for the whole Legion List thing, CSMs are (for the most part) broken up into warbands. While some of the original legions are still legions, it is simpler keeping it like this. I could see my self making certain HQ choices 2 for one slot, though. Again, not all CSMs are from the original Legions, too.


Now on possessed...
I playtested them a bit today and have decided upon a few things:
- Removing Vessels of Chaos for a few reasons, 1 being that it had an.. interesting combo that was quite broken (str 8, Shred, AP 3... heh heh no)
- Removing Ichor as it added nothing
- Increasing cost of the Beast upgrade, it seemed a tad to cheap (raise to 7 points sound fair)


Now more on the possessed themselves...

Barebones: as expected they functioned similar to Daemonettes, jack of all trades and masters of none just without the numbers, though they are more survivable. Without upgrading the number of attacks the unit can do decent damage to most things but is terrible vs hordes (and still are fairly bad after for their cost, but that isn't what these guys are for...)
Shooting upgrade: as I wanted it to be, not amazing but still useful. Thinking about whether to increase its power a tad, but no real problems with it
Strength: Yeah this is where they get powerful. I feel it is priced fairly currently, but I soon discovered an interesting combo with vessels (the aforementioned Str 8, Shred, AP 3 attacks...)
Beast: A bit cheap maybe (as mentioned) and a good upgrade. 7 pts seems fair so far. Helps them get there fast
All the things/mini deathstar: Costly, but felt worth the points (this was after playtesting without the insane combo of marine slaughter). Will cost more once Beast is given a small price bump.

 Clefty wrote:
Shouldn't CSM be lesser Space Marines? Why not make CSM closer to the actual Legion lists?

CSM is by no means lesser.

While they often have less maintained wargear, they often have Warp-powers and mutations that make up for it.

They are pretty much on par with loyalists.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:


Now on possessed...
I playtested them a bit today and have decided upon a few things:
- Removing Vessels of Chaos for a few reasons, 1 being that it had an.. interesting combo that was quite broken (str 8, Shred, AP 3... heh heh no)
- Removing Ichor as it added nothing
- Increasing cost of the Beast upgrade, it seemed a tad to cheap (raise to 7 points sound fair)


Now more on the possessed themselves...

Barebones: as expected they functioned similar to Daemonettes, jack of all trades and masters of none just without the numbers, though they are more survivable. Without upgrading the number of attacks the unit can do decent damage to most things but is terrible vs hordes (and still are fairly bad after for their cost, but that isn't what these guys are for...)
Shooting upgrade: as I wanted it to be, not amazing but still useful. Thinking about whether to increase its power a tad, but no real problems with it
Strength: Yeah this is where they get powerful. I feel it is priced fairly currently, but I soon discovered an interesting combo with vessels (the aforementioned Str 8, Shred, AP 3 attacks...)
Beast: A bit cheap maybe (as mentioned) and a good upgrade. 7 pts seems fair so far. Helps them get there fast
All the things/mini deathstar: Costly, but felt worth the points (this was after playtesting without the insane combo of marine slaughter). Will cost more once Beast is given a small price bump.

Do you think that making them beasts is a good thing? I'm afraid they're gona be used as beasts only. But ain't the price too high for that? Spawns are still way better cause of how durable they are. Btw, are marks applying to them as to daemons or regular marines?

I've playtested possessed to be worth 16 ppm with the current codex rules and was happy with the results. They were still not quite useful and didn't pay off but at least did something and weren't a complete waste.
- In one game 7 possessed with sorc and apostle won a combat vs 5 barebonez vanguard vets with a chapellan that charged from a landraider over 2 turns, loosing 2 possessed. A lucky +1 ini/+1 A were rolled so they managed to kill 2 vets at ini 5.
- in another game they've chopped through a tactical marine squad over 2 turns and wrecked a rhino. But that happened cause a marine player didn't pay enough attention to them while he could and hoped that rapid fire bolters and a plazmagun would be enough to stop them.
- in 3-d game they died to tau shooting but managed to run across the board and attract enough attention for a couple of turns thanks to 3+/5++ and fnp from being buffed by a sorc.
- in 4-th game they were shot off the board by turn 2 cause were focused down

As you see, they didn't do anything extraordinary and weren't dead killy, super-durable or too fast. Thus made me think that their real cost is 16 and not 26 Maybe that was a typo in the first place?

How about giving Champions the option of buying Terminator armour like in the good old days?

How about Champion of Chaos only forces the Characters to accept Challenges, not to issue them?

And what would that change?

If you don't issue the challenge, the opponent can then issue himself a challenge, so in the end the result is the same, you will be in each and every challenge Vs every darn low life sergeant.

No maybe something that if the Challenger as not a minimum of 2Wounds, the Champion of Chaos model, can then ignore the peasant and just fight normaly during this phase.

Well, 7th edition released I've gotten working on this project again.

I've attached a document with the changes I've made. You'll notice a few small changes, like Possession giving IWND and the Legion Traits (now Legacies of Heresy) having an overhaul (most of them remain the same for the most part)

You'll also notice a new rule, Master of the Dark Arts.

Working on Champion of Chaos now, as well as turning my gaze to Dark Apostles (many because 7th has given me an idea).

Basic Guide to what has what with the new rules for now and updated pricing, etc.:

Daemonic Possession: Increase price to 20 points, Helbrutes can now purchase it.
VotLW: Every non-HQ can purchase it for 1pt/ model, DA for free and all other HQs for 5pts
Legion of Dust: Thousand Sons
Horrors of the Warp: Everyone has it (except Cultists, because they're cultists)
Master of the Dark Arts: Psykers and Dark Apostles can purchase Master of the Dark Arts (*) where * is the god of the mark they have for 15pts, Psykers can purchase Narcissistic version for 15pts.
Legacies: Everyone (except cultists for the most part) has them, all models in the same detachment must have the same legacy. Zerkers can only have Bloodshed, TSons can only have Sorcery, Plague Marines can only have Pestilence and Noise Marines can only have Decadence)
Marks: Same costs
Dedications: Only for Vehicles with Daemonic Possession
-Khorne: 15pts
-Slaanesh: 15pts
-Nurgle: 20pts
-Tzeentch: 20pts




Thanks,
M.K

Was going to update the OP with all the info on Dakka so you don't need to download the document... but wow its annoying to update. I fear the document is now too big...
I'll work on it slowly, maybe...

Anyway, new update!
This update adds a few things, a New HQ choice (Sorcerer Lord, basically the old Sorcerer from the (4th?) Edition codex, but with Fearless and the current options) and 4 Psychic Power Disciplines (General Chaos, Tzeentch, Nurgle & Slaanesh)

I have uploaded it to Google Docs for ease, mainly (so I can update the file instead of attaching different version onto Dakka...).

Link
EDIT: Updated the file again, mainly fixing up a few errors I noticed later on and re-wording a few things to make them a bit more clear. Also added ANOTHER HQ choice, basically a Chapter Master equivalent (Cheaper, +1 WS but no Orbital Bombardment, can be upgraded to be a Lvl 1 Psyker though, unless you chose Khorne)

Thanks!
M.K