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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 18:48:28
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Been Around the Block
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I was absence from the Hobby for a while, until I suddenly had an urge to paint my Baneblades that had just been sitting on a shelf. So when I went to price check models today I notice the pre-order for the new Escalation supplement that allow super-heavies and gargantuan creatures to be used is standard 40k games as well as Apocalypse, which I'll admit gives me mixed feelings. It would be assume to see a Baneblade at the center of Imperial guard army or a Barbed Hierodule on the table. But at the same time I'm wondering how this would affect the balance of the game since these models can lay waste to units without really batting an eye. I mean I wouldn't mind seeing whole units of terminators blown away, but something tells me that is wouldn't be as fun for the other player as it would in a game of Apocalypse where the general principle seems to be removing large chunks of armies in a single turn. So does this mean such units are going to be toned down for standard games resulting in a kind of "nerf" or will they be at full power? I am personally leaning to the idea that the super-heavies and gargantuan creatures will see a semi nerffing in this supplement. I am also curious if this will affect Apocalypse in anyway. Anyone else care to voice their thoughts?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 19:17:03
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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The Hammer of Witches
A new day, a new time zone.
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You need to track down the Spearhead rules from 5th edition. Super heavies were never an issue when everyone was on the same page.
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"-Nonsense, the Inquisitor and his retinue are our hounoured guests, of course we should invite them to celebrate Four-armed Emperor-day with us..." Thought for the Day - Never use the powerfist hand to wipe. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 19:34:59
Subject: Re:Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Yellin' Yoof on a Scooter
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In my opinion, the major problem I see with this supplement is that over 90% of the people I play with do not have super heavies. They are not going to go rush out to buy super heavies just for this. So I predict that this supplement will be pushed for a few month by GW then fall into disuse like the other supplements. I am already starting to see less and less apoc games. Which is really unfortunate because in the future I did want to try it out. (after I got all of my army painted)
The other thing I see is not all armies have great super heavies and some armies struggle to deal with heavy armor units. How is this going to effect the game? Will it make it more fun to play? That is the real question I always ask my self before I get into any type of new game.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 20:10:34
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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I'm really looking forward to superheavies, especially if they keep D weapons the way they are currently. D weapons are the only viable counter to all these 2++ deathstars out there.
Eldar players would actually have to think and use skill each turn instead of seerstar, and waveserpent spam.
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In before thread lock. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 21:08:11
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
Some Tomb World in some galaxy by that one thing in that one place (or Minnesota for nosy people)
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Gitsmasher wrote:I'm really looking forward to superheavies, especially if they keep D weapons the way they are currently. D weapons are the only viable counter to all these 2++ deathstars out there.
Eldar players would actually have to think and use skill each turn instead of seerstar, and waveserpent spam.
That would be correct except that eldar kinda sorta maybe have some of the best superheavies in regards to D weapons and how much D firepower they can put. I am curious to see how the superheavies will play out though because if it is just one superheavy or some sort of points restriction we could easily see the D weapons be overwhelmed by sheer numbers since D weapons don't exactly come in the VoF variety and if you are paying 500 points for a shadowsword to gib a few boyz a turn you are doing something wrong list building wise. I could see D weapons being a great nuclear deterent againt the unstoppable rerollable 2++ deathstars and bring this game back to at least little more balanced than the horrid piece of silly it is right now
EDIT: Grammar
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/11/30 21:09:55
"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War
"If your not winning, try a bigger sword! Usually works..."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 21:12:32
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Tzeentch Aspiring Sorcerer Riding a Disc
The darkness between the stars
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That or just break it more and hand favor even further to snooty (also I am cynical of a daemon dude)
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2375
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 21:28:18
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Foolproof Falcon Pilot
Livingston, United Kingdom
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I think that the crucial thing to remember is that it is optional, and your opponent will thus let you know if he wants to use it. If my mate Andy asked me for a game of Escalation, then I'd know that he probably wanted to use his Baneblade. I sadly don't own any superheavies yet. That is cool. I have tools to deal with Baneblades. They are called "Powerklaws". I'll just bring lots.
Like a lot of potentially unbalanced things, being alerted to it before the game is the main way to avoid heartache.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 22:02:55
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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StarTrotter wrote:That or just break it more and hand favor even further to snooty (also I am cynical of a daemon dude)
The ability to reliably destroy a waveserpent/riptide/daemon a turn would not break the game any further.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/11/30 22:07:38
In before thread lock. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 22:07:45
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Esteemed Veteran Space Marine
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I am out because i have read that Marines only have the Thunderhawk (a huge, somewhat fragile model that is not even remotely affordable in any economy)? I am one of those rare marine players that is not too keen on the T-hawk as a model and I certainly am not going to drop 500 US on it.
Of course this could be wrong and marines will be able to use some of the heresy era tanks, at which point my interest might pick up.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 22:20:32
Subject: Re:Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Wing Commander
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I'm actually hopeful for it; I'd like to see more of the "sub-par" superheavies fielded, and in regular games sans D weapons, they might actually have a purpose.
Things like Malcadors, Machariuses...Macharii...Machariusus...however you say that in plural, and so on are just kind of "ok" in Apocalypse, usually die quickly, and don't accomplish much despite being gorgeous and expensive models.
Now a Macharius Vulcan in regular 40k, there's a tank with a role to fill, while also not being painfully points intensive like a lot of things people are worried about. I don't expect many Reavers or Warhounds in regular games, especially with D weapons not being D.
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Therefore, I conclude, Valve should announce Half Life 2: Episode 3.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 22:38:30
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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You people should really stop trying to figure out how D weapons will effect regular gameplay, because nobody said that Escalation even follows the same datasheets as Apoc, nor that D weapons even do the same thing.
It is VERY possible that they are modified!
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 22:50:56
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Sneaky Striking Scorpion
South West UK
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BoomWolf wrote:You people should really stop trying to figure out how D weapons will effect regular gameplay, because nobody said that Escalation even follows the same datasheets as Apoc, nor that D weapons even do the same thing.
It is VERY possible that they are modified!
Well let's hope. But I looked at the preview for the ebook version and there's an Eldar Titan on display. Now maybe they've changed D-Weapons... But are you a gambling man, BoomWolf?
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What is best in life?
To wound enemy units, see them driven from the table, and hear the lamentations of their player. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 22:51:00
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Grisly Ghost Ark Driver
Some Tomb World in some galaxy by that one thing in that one place (or Minnesota for nosy people)
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BoomWolf wrote:You people should really stop trying to figure out how D weapons will effect regular gameplay, because nobody said that Escalation even follows the same datasheets as Apoc, nor that D weapons even do the same thing.
It is VERY possible that they are modified!
It is very possible but knowing GW they will either ban them completely or just copy paste the rules like they do for a lot of things to keep it simple and have no confusing rules to balance certain weapons for certain scale games
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"Put your 1st best against you opponents 2nd best, your 2nd best against their 3rd best, and your 3rd best against their 1st best"-Sun Tzu's Art of War
"If your not winning, try a bigger sword! Usually works..."
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 23:00:01
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Douglas Bader
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This. For GW it's very simple: copy/pasting the Apocalypse rules takes very little time. Inventing new rules and playtesting them takes time. Why spend time when the fanboys are going to buy your garbage anyway? Expect STR D to work exactly like it does in Apocalypse, unless GW decided that Shadowsword sales aren't meeting expectations and increased the template size to 15".
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/11/30 23:06:36
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Impassive Inquisitorial Interrogator
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No, D-Weapons are still in there. When you look at the Fortification preview for the eBook version it shows the Macro-cannon as a D-Weapon in the discussion of how the weapon works. In the blurb, it blows a Monolith out of the air. Pretty sure D-Weapons are in.
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You don't see da eyes of da Daemon, till him come callin'
- King Willy - Predator 2 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 00:16:03
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?
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Charles Rampant wrote:I think that the crucial thing to remember is that it is optional, and your opponent will thus let you know if he wants to use it. If my mate Andy asked me for a game of Escalation, then I'd know that he probably wanted to use his Baneblade. I sadly don't own any superheavies yet. That is cool. I have tools to deal with Baneblades. They are called "Powerklaws". I'll just bring lots.
Exactly, even if you don't have a superheavy, you can still have what it takes to deal with them. Honestly, I would argue that anyone playing in, say, a 2000pt game (which is almost the minimum required for most of the superheavies, much like the Heresy version of the Lords of War rule) that is incapable of dealing with just 500 points of AV14 (be it 3 Leman Russes or 2 Land Raiders, for example) deserves what they get.
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"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me." - Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 00:31:19
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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BoomWolf wrote:You people should really stop trying to figure out how D weapons will effect regular gameplay, because nobody said that Escalation even follows the same datasheets as Apoc, nor that D weapons even do the same thing.
It is VERY possible that they are modified!
who says you have to take the lord of battle from the book , why not take the superior version with the actual D weapon from FW , when your opponent is already saying ok to super heavies.
Exactly, even if you don't have a superheavy, you can still have what it takes to deal with them. Honestly, I would argue that anyone playing in, say, a 2000pt game (which is almost the minimum required for most of the superheavies, much like the Heresy version of the Lords of War rule) that is incapable of dealing with just 500 points of AV14 (be it 3 Leman Russes or 2 Land Raiders, for example) deserves what they get.
they don't get stuned , don't get shaken , have have their weapons destroyed but their D class weapons are blowing up my tanks and unlike marines my melta units come in turn 2 and can't deploy till turn 3 , because vendettas are zooming in to avoid my opponents interceptors.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/01 00:34:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 00:34:15
Subject: Re:Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Confessor Of Sins
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Won't be buying it. My games are too small to make good use of superheavies,
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 00:40:33
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Preacher of the Emperor
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I won't buy it for the forseeable future, but I will be following it with interest. I'd like to see what they've done with it.
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Order of the Righteous Armour - 542 points so far. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 00:46:26
Subject: Re:Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Pouncey wrote:Won't be buying it. My games are too small to make good use of superheavies,
I can see it now....
Play IG at 1K points.
bring a baneblade
1 CCS
2x infantry platoons
1 ageis defense line w/ quadgun
All for 910 pts
Engage trollercoaster.
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In before thread lock. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 04:53:53
Subject: Re:Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Grey Knight Psionic Stormraven Pilot
California
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I don't know if I agree with this direction that GW is going. They are putting 900 and plus costed units in 1500-2k points games. I mean what would be the point be n playing the game any more when half if not more of your points are all put into one unit. I mean, come on man.... I was sketchy on the introduction of fliers but have grown to be ok with the idea and actually like how it opens a new implement of Ariel combat into the game. However super heavies simply enough... were meant for the Apocalypse games... that's why they have been in apocalypse games for how many years now? I mean I enjoy seeing a number of units on the field not... 1 Huge Ass tank 2 troops and a commander for close to 1500 points. I mean it just doesn't vibe and I just don't see how they will be able to implement them. In addition to that.... These units can wipe out multiple units... and I mean WIPE out units.... so I just don't know
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 05:13:33
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Twisting Tzeentch Horror
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ClassicCarraway wrote:I am out because i have read that Marines only have the Thunderhawk (a huge, somewhat fragile model that is not even remotely affordable in any economy)? I am one of those rare marine players that is not too keen on the T-hawk as a model and I certainly am not going to drop 500 US on it.
Of course this could be wrong and marines will be able to use some of the heresy era tanks, at which point my interest might pick up.
Ally in IG for a Baneblade. Or use your force to fight AGAINST Super Heavies. TH/ SS Terminators do amazing things to Super Heavies.
Charles Rampant wrote:I think that the crucial thing to remember is that it is optional, and your opponent will thus let you know if he wants to use it. If my mate Andy asked me for a game of Escalation, then I'd know that he probably wanted to use his Baneblade. I sadly don't own any superheavies yet. That is cool. I have tools to deal with Baneblades. They are called "Powerklaws". I'll just bring lots.
Well said.
Warboss Gobslag wrote:
In my opinion, the major problem I see with this supplement is that over 90% of the people I play with do not have super heavies. They are not going to go rush out to buy super heavies just for this. So I predict that this supplement will be pushed for a few month by GW then fall into disuse like the other supplements. I am already starting to see less and less apoc games. Which is really unfortunate because in the future I did want to try it out. (after I got all of my army painted)
The other thing I see is not all armies have great super heavies and some armies struggle to deal with heavy armor units. How is this going to effect the game? Will it make it more fun to play? That is the real question I always ask my self before I get into any type of new game.
Sounds like this isn't the supplement for you. So don't play this particular way. In our area Apocalypse is on the rise actually. However we have a very strong 40k community in my immediate vicinity.
Dezstiny wrote:I don't know if I agree with this direction that GW is going. They are putting 900 and plus costed units in 1500-2k points games. I mean what would be the point be n playing the game any more when half if not more of your points are all put into one unit. I mean, come on man.... I was sketchy on the introduction of fliers but have grown to be ok with the idea and actually like how it opens a new implement of Ariel combat into the game. However super heavies simply enough... were meant for the Apocalypse games... that's why they have been in apocalypse games for how many years now? I mean I enjoy seeing a number of units on the field not... 1 Huge Ass tank 2 troops and a commander for close to 1500 points. I mean it just doesn't vibe and I just don't see how they will be able to implement them. In addition to that.... These units can wipe out multiple units... and I mean WIPE out units.... so I just don't know
It's just another way to play the game. It may not be for everyone. Doesn't mean GW is changing the direction of the core game in any way.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/01 05:15:33
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 06:23:03
Subject: Re:Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Dakka Veteran
Eastern Washington
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Id say Super Heavys are gonna be the next flyers. They'll be over powered, not everyone has them & those who don't will lose.
Also, the fortifications rules...lame.
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4,000 Word Bearers 1,500 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 06:29:30
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Oh goodie, a supplement that lets me take units that already exists. I can't wait to spend half a Benjamen on it.
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Thought for the day: Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment.
30k Ultramarines: 2000 pts
Bolt Action Germans: ~1200 pts
AOS Stormcast: Just starting.
The Empire : ~60-70 models.
1500 pts
: My Salamanders painting blog 16 Infantry and 2 Vehicles done so far! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 08:31:07
Subject: Re:Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch
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Red Marine wrote:Id say Super Heavys are gonna be the next flyers. They'll be over powered, not everyone has them & those who don't will lose.
Also, the fortifications rules...lame.
The fortification rules are lame?
I was not aware we actually saw what was said to be NEW fortification rules (not datasheets, actual rules that override the BRB ones)
Makumba wrote:
they don't get stuned , don't get shaken , have have their weapons destroyed but their D class weapons are blowing up my tanks and unlike marines my melta units come in turn 2 and can't deploy till turn 3 , because vendettas are zooming in to avoid my opponents interceptors.
How is it any different then a wall of leman russes except the shaken/stunned part? (a part mostly useless when they got 3 of them at the cost, at best you temporarily disabled ONE)
My answer to a baneblade is similar to my answer to the russes, take down it's defenders, and hide out until the cavalry (in form of deepstrike fusion suits) arrive and brake it.
And its not even THAT hard to brake them, a few melta shots SHOULD do the trick, and if that fails, time to move to plan B-more melta shots.
You say that only marines can hit you with melta turn 1? sisters would like a word. they can, and WILL throw about 10 melta shots at it turn 1.
Suddenly your vendettas are not the ultimate answer to any and all armor? bummer.
That's what superheavies are about people, "I may not have much, but what I do have is absurd" is the name of the game here.
And you know what? I'd love a chance to crack open my buddy Vault, despite the fact I don't play apoc (too small army)
And yes, I'm aware of how one-sided it would be (that thing is OP even in apoc where balance is a dream)-but it will be FUN.
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can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 08:43:02
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Complaining about a single unit costing 900 points? Are you talking about superheavies or seer council, o'vesa star, screamerstar, draigowing or what? Most likely the superheavy does a lot less than any of those silly combinations.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 08:52:31
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Liche Priest Hierophant
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Eh, I think it's kinda cool. Will I buy it? No. I don't have a super heavy or Gargantuan Creature. If I did, I'd rather use it in Apoc or Spearhead.
Even then, Assuming it follows HHs Lords of War system, I wouldn't have any use for it anyway, we mainly play 1000-1750 point games (the usual be 1500). Sure, a Suupper Heavy would bring this to 2000, but again, I'm not gonna be getting one any time soon!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 08:58:54
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Warning From Magnus? Not Listening!
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For me I think it's going to break the game meta at my local GW (where I play my games).
This is because there are several player there who will go out and buy a baneblade or an eldar Titan just to break their armies further.
So I'm not a fan of the prospect of super-heavies in normal games...
In moderation would be fine but I fear that ain't gonna happen
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/01 08:59:37
My P&M blog
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 09:26:33
Subject: Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Douglas Bader
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Naw wrote:Complaining about a single unit costing 900 points? Are you talking about superheavies or seer council, o'vesa star, screamerstar, draigowing or what? Most likely the superheavy does a lot less than any of those silly combinations.
Those things are also bad and should never have been included in normal 40k. But the fact that bad things exist already doesn't mean we should include even more of them.
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There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2013/12/01 09:29:20
Subject: Re:Feelings on the New GW supplement "Escalation"
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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How is it any different then a wall of leman russes except the shaken/stunned part? (a part mostly useless when they got 3 of them at the cost, at best you temporarily disabled ONE)
I have never had tau , eldar or gravmarines hurt less then two per turn per turn .
You say that only marines can hit you with melta turn 1? sisters would like a word. they can, and WILL throw about 10 melta shots at it turn 1.
Suddenly your vendettas are not the ultimate answer to any and all armor? bummer.
no am saying IG has no turn one ways of taking down a super heavy. So if he starts , he gets 2 unobstructed turns of shoting with it . To kill something like that with guard bs and melta guns , I would need more then 10 meltaguns in range and that is , if he doesn't put the super heavy on a landing pad for +4inv.
And If my codex is balanced around vendettas doing the anti tank , then yes it is a bummer when GW adds stuff which makes my army unable to counter it .
And yes, I'm aware of how one-sided it would be (that thing is OP even in apoc where balance is a dream)-but it will be FUN.
yeah because if a group of guys twice your size is wooping your ass , it is so much fun .
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/01 09:34:55
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