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Recent games have caused me to come to the decision that my Chaos list is far from ideal when it finds itself up against newer armies. My last game against a relatively new Eldar player resulted in a rather embarassing defeat, although I found out afterwards that this was due to a mistake in reading the Bladestorm rule* that he was able to take me down so quickly. In the game before against Space Marines, I had a pretty good victory based around denying his Centurions from shooting by using Weapon Virus.

*We thought that a 6 to hit resulted in Ap2, whereas it was actually to wound. This meant that a 6 to hit automatically killed one of my guys, whereas it should be on a 6 to wound.

However, my current strategy revolves around a unit of Abaddon, a ML2 Nurgle Sorceror and 13CSM with CCWs and 2x Meltaguns. As far as I'm concerned, it's not really as good as I was hoping. The CSM are pretty much fodder to make sure Abby makes it into CC, and the Sorceror provides support with Weapon Virus and an additional spell. While it's proven to be effective in my case, I feel I could build a stronger list. This is the current list I run:

Abaddon the Despoiler – 265pts

Chaos Sorceror – 100pts
- Mastery Level 2
- Spell Familiar

Troops

13 Chaos Space Marines – 213pts
- Close Combat Weapons x13
- Meltagun x2
- Lightning Claw

10 Chaos Space Marines – 185pts
- Plasmagun x2
- Combi-Plasma
- Power Weapon

10 Chaos Space Marines – 175pts
- Plasmagun x2
- Lightning Claw

Fast Attack

5 Raptors – 155pts
- Meltagun x2
- Lightning Claw
- Plasma Pistol
- Mark of Nurgle

5 Raptors – 155pts
- Meltagun x2
- Lightning Claw
- Plasma Pistol
- Mark of Nurgle

Heavy Support

3x Obliterators – 234pts
- Mark of Nurgle


Now, I'm thinking of reconstucting this list from one which seems like "Multiple squads of average capability", into one more akin to a deathstar. I've been considering adding a Daemon Prince in place of Abbadon: if my memory serves correct, A DP with PA, Wings and the Black Mace comes to roughly the same points as Abby. I'm also thinking what else I could do against such a list, as I have a feeling that I'm going to be coming up against Riptides en-mass eventually, and I doubt that my current number of low-Ap weaponry is enough to deal with them.

I'm thinking of taking the Daemon Prince instead of Abby, and dropping the 13 CSM unit to build a Screamerstar allied contingent. I haven't had any experience with or against Screamerstar, so I'd like to hear your suggestions about it before I commit to anything.

So what would be the best way to re-structure this list? Should I go towards the Screamerstar list or down another route?

Thanks for your input.

10 men units of CSM are absolutely not worthy from the competitive point of view. The lack of fearless makes them a liability, even though standard xenos troops are no match for them, it's highly unlikely they'll throw Fire Warriors or Eldar Guardians at you, they'll either charge you with cc specific units or aim at you with mass concentration of fire. You'll end up having to test for leadership, and with Ld 8 (if the champion dies) you're going to lose 180 pts due to a bad roll. That has not to happen.

From my point of view, the only 3 competitive choices for Troops are:

1) Plague Marines (require Lord with MoN or Typhus as one of your HQs)
2) Cultists (require a way to make them fearless, such as an HQ with them or turning them into zombies)
3) Noise Marines (require Lord with MoS or Lucius the Eternal)


Plague Marines are by far the toughest and most versatile (they can protect objectives, ride in a rhino with 2 plasma guns, footslog, tarpit MCs when in desperate times and actually threaten them with poisoned).
Cultists are by far the cheapest, and even if they'll die quickly, 35 of them are still 35 wounds your opponent will have to take care of before wounding your powerful HQ of choice.

Noise Marines instead are the only troop choice that is actually able to deal some good amount of damage and threaten your opponent. If he wears power armour, every shot will make him weep, potentially loosing lots of points. If he relies on cover, you will deny his only chance of survival.
However in my experience they become a priority target and you absolutely need 2 squads of 10 men with Icon of Excess at minimum to have any chance of doing something worthy. Very Expensive.



For the Fast Attack slot I'd suggest to drop the raptors for, in this order of efficiency:

Helldrake
Spawns (with MoN mandatory)
Bikers

Spawns are often underestimated by those that briefly look at their profile, because of their lack of saves and weapons. However they are extremely fast and 5 of them with the Mark of Nurgle are 15 wounds at T6, absolutely not easy to get rid of, especially if you manage to get some cover. Hide a Bike Lord of Nurgle with a PF and a LC and you'll deliver a killing machine efficiently to the enemy's throat

So, it would be hard to call this list a deathstar. Usually, a deathstar is a unit that is invulnerable to most attacks and has a high damage output. I don't see that happening here.

A better name might be 'star destroyer.' It's has a number of formidable units that are going to pack a big punch. Most Abaddon lists are centered around the idea of getting him into cc to cause a lot of havoc. I like your list for making some brave choices around CSMs and the use of Raptors in place of Heldrakes. These are unconventional choices that are under appreciated in 6th edition. I did not actually do the math, but it looks like this is around 1600 points?

Here are some suggestions to make this list work:

1) As the previous poster already mentioned, CSMs lack fearless. It's a good idea to get them the Icon of Vengeance to keep them from breaking.

2) You would probably benefit from Rhinos for the CSMs. A unit of 13 CSMs will obviously not fit in one. Consider making the 13 man unit a 10 man unit, max.

3) If you do get Rhinos, take daemonic possession and destroyer blades. One the one hand, opponents don't really expect this. On the other hand, you want to be moving flat out and disembarking as soon as possible. There's not going to be time to shoot out of them, so why not give them some limited offense?

4) You would probably benefit from changing one of the CSM units to Chosen. Take fewer models, give them all plasma guns, let them shoot something up the moment they disembark. This would add a lot of punch and compliment the obliterators, and they would be scoring b/c of the HQ.

5) Tactically, I think you want to DS Abaddon. It just would not make sense to march him up the field, given the raptors and other deep strike options. In order to protect him, consider putting him with some MoN terminators. It makes sense, because you absolutely, positively do not want to lose your toughest unit before he gets into cc.

6) That sorcerer could use a sigil of corruption to get a 4+ invulnerable save.

7) If I was going to take this list up to 2000 points, I would focus on heavy support choices. A forgefiend could make a big difference for this list. A couple predators could add some early-game ranged offense. But anything that has a big punch would be welcome here.

8) Conversely, some cultists to grab strategic points would keep your CSMs in combat.

I have seen good results from a MoN lord, sorcerer, and a max unit of nurgle bikers with psychic powers such as endurance, invisibility, and a few other things.

A black mace biker lord with a full unit of nurgle spawn or a juggerlord with AoBF with a full unit of unmarked spawn have both never ever failed me. Take both for double the fun.

Black mace is only REALLY good with a demon prince, he makes it ap2 instead of ap4

A good "deathstar" i have had success with is a nurgle bike squad with a lvl3 unmarked sorceror and a nurgle bike lord for extra gaks and giggles, well you roll on telepathy and hope for invisibility and now you have invisible bikes, your welcome

35 cultists + Kharn

I've been having fun with Abaddon leading 10 MoS terminators with IoE with a mix of shooting weapons (3 x combi meltas, 2 reaper cannons, 5 combi bolters) and a mix of cc weapons (3 x Maul, 3 x Axe's, 2 PF, 2 x CF). I like having the 3 mauls in there as 9 st6 attacks (on the charge) that tend to strike first are useful.
Also Abby's preferred enemy against SM's is brutal - re-rolling all ones in cc and shooting is great. (obv if you fight SM's a lot)
Against an army dedicated to taking out terminators, it woun't last too long. Against a TAC list it becomes an object of hatred for your opponent.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I've been considering adding a Daemon Prince in place of Abbadon: if my memory serves correct, A DP with PA, Wings and the Black Mace comes to roughly the same points as Abby. I'm also thinking what else I could do against such a list, as I have a feeling that I'm going to be coming up against Riptides en-mass eventually, and I doubt that my current number of low-Ap weaponry is enough to deal with them.

A DP isnt a surefire thing against riptides. It has to catch them and then the tide can ID them with it's smash. You shouldnt deal with riptides by killing them, kill the supporting Tau and chase the riptides into positions where they have poor fire lanes to good targets. Spawn are great for chasing them, even if they dont catch them early you arent spending too many points to get them off their game.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'm thinking of taking the Daemon Prince instead of Abby, and dropping the 13 CSM unit to build a Screamerstar allied contingent. I haven't had any experience with or against Screamerstar, so I'd like to hear your suggestions about it before I commit to anything.

So what would be the best way to re-structure this list? Should I go towards the Screamerstar list or down another route?

I wouldnt go out and try to build a screamerstar. Seems pretty desprete to win. It also basically required Daemon primary to get enough heralds and fateweaver. If you want to be a WAAC player then go for it, make a screamerstar and enjoy that dynamic until the rules change, but frankly I think the game should be about more than exploiting poorly written rules to gimmick the game.

A chaos Death Star in 4 easy steps...

Step one - buy the rules for Be'Lakor

Step two - Field Be'Lakor

Step three - ????

Step four - Profit

I'm not trying to be a WAAC player, I just feel my list could use a bit of a boost, a make it a bit more interesting other than Abaddon and CSM.

 Valkyrie wrote:
I'm not trying to be a WAAC player, I just feel my list could use a bit of a boost, a make it a bit more interesting other than Abaddon and CSM.

the screamerstar screams of WAAC. It's a list that abuses an mechanic to get a 2++ rerollable save and thus an unkillable unit. A lot of people will refuse to play screamerstars, it rarely makes for a fun game.

If you want to make the list more interesting, go for a jugger lord with spawn or a MoN or MoS bikelord with a bunch of bikes. They arent deathstars but they are a lot of fun.

Yeah, screamerstar is certainly powerful.

I am winning games lately just because of that unit, and I don't even have Fateweaver to re-roll grimoire tests (and only use one herald because they're allies). Of course, this is not thanks to any skill on my part. :p It's a mini-star, I guess.

There are times where my Thousand Sons don't even get targeted because the screamer star is running around causing too much damage. That's a hell of a deathstar and I generally only use it against the most competitive opponents.