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Made in us
Most Glorious Grey Seer





Everett, WA

Because apparently social services there can do just about anything they damned well please.
Colin Freeman wrote:Child taken from womb by social services

Exclusive: Essex social services have obtained a court order against a woman that allowed her to be forcibly sedated and for her child to be taken from her womb by caesarean section



A pregnant woman has had her baby forcibly removed by caesarean section by social workers.

Essex social services obtained a High Court order against the woman that allowed her to be forcibly sedated and her child to be taken from her womb.

Torment of woman who had baby taken from womb
Child taken from womb by social services: 'It's not always wrong'

The council said it was acting in the best interests of the woman, an Italian who was in Britain on a work trip, because she had suffered a mental breakdown.

The baby girl, now 15 months old, is still in the care of social services, who are refusing to give her back to the mother, even though she claims to have made a full recovery.

The case has developed into an international legal row, with lawyers for the woman describing it as “unprecedented”.

They claim that even if the council had been acting in the woman’s best interests, officials should have consulted her family beforehand and also involved Italian social services, who would be better-placed to look after the child.

Brendan Fleming, the woman’s British lawyer, told The Sunday Telegraph: “I have never heard of anything like this in all my 40 years in the job.

“I can understand if someone is very ill that they may not be able to consent to a medical procedure, but a forced caesarean is unprecedented.

“If there were concerns about the care of this child by an Italian mother, then the better plan would have been for the authorities here to have notified social services in Italy and for the child to have been taken back there.”

The case, reported by Christopher Booker in his column in The Sunday Telegraph, raises fresh questions about the extent of social workers’ powers.

It will be raised in Parliament this week by John Hemming, a Liberal Democrat MP. He chairs the Public Family Law Reform Coordinating Campaign, which wants reform and greater openness in court proceedings involving family matters.

He said: “I have seen a number of cases of abuses of people’s rights in the family courts, but this has to be one of the more extreme.

“It involves the Court of Protection authorising a caesarean section without the person concerned being made aware of what was proposed. I worry about the way these decisions about a person’s mental capacity are being taken without any apparent concern as to the effect on the individual being affected.”

The woman, who cannot be named for legal reasons, is an Italian national who come to Britain in July last year to attend a training course with an airline at Stansted Airport in Essex.

She suffered a panic attack, which her relations believe was due to her failure to take regular medication for an existing bipolar condition.

She called the police, who became concerned for her well-being and took her to a hospital, which she then realised was a psychiatric facility.

She has told her lawyers that when she said she wanted to return to her hotel, she was restrained and sectioned under the Mental Health Act.

Meanwhile, Essex social services obtained a High Court order in August 2012 for the birth “to be enforced by way of caesarean section”, according to legal documents seen by this newspaper.

The woman, who says she was kept in the dark about the proceedings, says that after five weeks in the ward she was forcibly sedated. When she woke up she was told that the child had been delivered by C-section and taken into care.

In February, the mother, who had gone back to Italy, returned to Britain to request the return of her daughter at a hearing at Chelmsford Crown Court.

Her lawyers say that she had since resumed taking her medication, and that the judge formed a favourable opinion of her. But he ruled that the child should be placed for adoption because of the risk that she might suffer a relapse.

The cause has also been raised before a judge in the High Court in Rome, which has questioned why British care proceedings had been applied to the child of an Italian citizen “habitually resident” in Italy. The Italian judge accepted, though, that the British courts had jurisdiction over the woman, who was deemed to have had no “capacity” to instruct lawyers.

Lawyers for the woman are demanding to know why Essex social services appear not have contacted next of kin in Italy to consult them on the case.

They are also upset that social workers insisted on placing the child in care in Britain, when there had been an offer from a family friend in America to look after her.

An expert on social care proceedings, who asked not to be named because she was not fully acquainted with the details of the case, described it as “highly unusual”.

She said the council would first have to find “that she was basically unfit to make any decision herself” and then shown there was an acute risk to the mother if a natural birth was attempted.

An Essex county council spokesman said the local authority would not comment on ongoing cases involving vulnerable people and children.



 
   
Made in se
Ferocious Black Templar Castellan






Sweden

To start off, is there any other source or do I have to take the Telegraph's word for it?

That said, Jesus H. Christ, WHAT?!

For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Italy should immediately declare war over the kidnapping of its citizens. No true Roman will rest until The Legio X Equestris is marching on the Londonium barbarians.

For Rome! For Caesar!


-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in us
Rough Rider with Boomstick




Gunblaze West

Jesus..... the other side of the pond is scary

 Kilkrazy wrote:
We moderators often make unwise decisions on Friday afternoons.
 kestril wrote:
Page 1: New guard topic
Page 2: FW debate
Page 3: Ailaros and Peregrine fight. TO THE DEATH
I swear I think those two have a hate-crush on each other sometimes.
 
   
Made in gb
Hulking Hunter-class Warmech




North West UK

I've never heard anything good about social services here in the UK. Ever.

But this takes the cake...

Not One Step Back Comrade! - Tibbsy's Stalingrad themed Soviet Strelkovy

Tibbsy's WW1 Trench Raid Diorama Blog
 Ouze wrote:

Well, you don't stuff facts into the Right Wing Outrage Machine©. My friend, you load it with derp and sensationalism, and then crank that wheel.
 
   
Made in us
5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)




The Great State of Texas

Can a Brit check to see if this is for reals?

-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
 
   
Made in gb
Insect-Infested Nurgle Chaos Lord







Let's just sweep all the good work that social services do under the carpet for a few bad stories.

I think we need more details than this inflamatory article.

   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

 Frazzled wrote:
Can a Brit check to see if this is for reals?


I've seen it repeated on other news services - I think I first saw it on the BBC - usually pretty good for fact checking.

The social services in the UK have been through quite a few rough patches over at least the last 10 years (probably the last few decades if we are being honest) but this is certainly something new as far as I am aware.

   
Made in us
Last Remaining Whole C'Tan






Pleasant Valley, Iowa

Social Services in the US has some pretty outlandish powers as well, also with poor or nonexistent oversight. While this specific example was from the UK I wouldn't call it a UK problem specifically, either. There have been some wild ass cases here where they have overreached, but no one wants to make a mistake if a child might get hurt, so... overreach.

Additionally - and I'm not victim blaming here - I think there are elements of the story not reported. She had a panic attack, and was in the mental facility for at least 5 weeks previous to the C-section. 5 weeks for a panic attack? Something is fishy here.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/02 14:28:48


 lord_blackfang wrote:
Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.

 Flinty wrote:
The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
 
   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






JESUS......I cant even try to play devils advocate for this one, it is just too horrible. Im sorry but "Panic Attack" does not equal being sectioned, it equals talking to a doc for a bit

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
JESUS......I cant even try to play devils advocate for this one, it is just too horrible. Im sorry but "Panic Attack" does not equal being sectioned, it equals talking to a doc for a bit


True, but "panic attack" doesn't land you 5 weeks in care if there is anyone at all competent with regards to mental health in the location you are being treated. So while I agree this is awful, there must be more to it.

I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in us
Fate-Controlling Farseer





Fort Campbell

 motyak wrote:
 hotsauceman1 wrote:
JESUS......I cant even try to play devils advocate for this one, it is just too horrible. Im sorry but "Panic Attack" does not equal being sectioned, it equals talking to a doc for a bit


True, but "panic attack" doesn't land you 5 weeks in care if there is anyone at all competent with regards to mental health in the location you are being treated. So while I agree this is awful, there must be more to it.


It's possible that the same system that decided to forcibly operate on a woman and steal her child, had overblown her issues in the first place.

At any rate... if she wasn't a British citizen, then what grounds did they have to do this in the first place? If this had happened to an American citizen, I hope our State Department would be raising no end of hell over this.

Full Frontal Nerdity 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

 djones520 wrote:
At any rate... if she wasn't a British citizen, then what grounds did they have to do this in the first place? If this had happened to an American citizen, I hope our State Department would be raising no end of hell over this.


You go somewhere, you liveby their rules. However silly they may be, or how badly applied. Given the very limited amount of information that there is about this case it is hard to know how much was going on in the background both with social services and with the woman's mental health.

If it turns out that the social services and so on acted against the law then I very much hope that those responsible get the book thrown at them. If it looks like everything was done properly, well... it is a horrible situation still but they acted within the law and following all the appropriate guidance...

   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Northern IA

Having been a Registered Nurse serving patients in a locked mental facility, I can speak from experience here....

1) panic attacks should not require 5 weeks of treatment

2) if she is bipolar and off her meds, it could take a few weeks to get her re-regulated (depending on how long she was off, the severity of her bipolar, etc).

3) bipolar disorder is a very treatable mental illness, provided the person takes their meds and family/friends know what signs to watch for that may indicate medication non compliance or that an adjustment is needed.

I suspect that she was kept there for the express purpose of getting her closer to term so that the child could be delivered and taken.


I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.

Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
 
   
Made in ca
Ancient Venerable Black Templar Dreadnought





Canada

Well, at first blush, it looks like it could be real:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/social-services-forcibly-remove-unborn-child-from-woman-by-caesarean-after-she-suffered-mental-health-breakdown-8975808.html

"Shami Chakrabarti, the director of Liberty, said: “At first blush this is dystopian science-fiction unworthy of a democracy like ours. Forced surgery and separation of mother and infant is the stuff of nightmares.”
A spokesman for Essex County Council said he could not comment on ongoing cases."

Every surgery has risk, being put under for any reason has some risk of death so I am surprised of the disregard of the patient's health as well as removing the baby prior to coming to full term.

Typically if a patient is unable to decide for themselves, immediate family is to be involved: what of the rights of the father? Or grandparents?

This is the point where a serious "slap-down" of overreaching civil servants operating beyond the scope of their job or of humane thinking in general.
I would suggest making such an example of this that no-one would ever think of doing this again: loss of job, loss of tenure, possible arrest for disregard of basic human rights.

Why does this typically happen in Britain? (Police being a bit cavalier of law interpretation has been newsworthy as well).
Canada should not be all that different with some of our systems, I will look into it (taking guns from houses after flooding is our latest).


A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






New Orleans, LA

Even good social service programs can feth up royally from time to time.

 Talizvar wrote:

This is the point where a serious "slap-down" of overreaching civil servants operating beyond the scope of their job or of humane thinking in general.
I would suggest making such an example of this that no-one would ever think of doing this again: loss of job, loss of tenure, possible arrest for disregard of basic human rights.



Agreed.

DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Northern IA

SilverMK2 wrote: If it looks like everything was done properly, well... it is a horrible situation still but they acted within the law and following all the appropriate guidance...



And these guys....



Were completely within German law (at the time) when they herded their prisoners into these gas chambers....


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/02 15:08:00


I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.

Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
 
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

 Talizvar wrote:
being put under for any reason has some risk of death so I am surprised of the disregard of the patient's health as well as removing the baby prior to coming to full term.


Was she actually put under completely? I am always surprised when I read stories saying women have been put under, because they are either wrong or the hospital that I worked at was unique in how it did c-sections.

And zingggg Godwin! (not my post, the one above). You may want to edit that though, at the moment you are attributing what you are saying to Silver

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2013/12/02 15:05:20


I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

 TheMeanDM wrote:
And these guys....

Spoiler:


Were completely within German law (at the time) when they herded their prisoners into these gas chambers....[/color]

Spoiler:



Yay! Godwin!

Oh, wait, we are talking about compltely different things - one being the actual topic - a woman who may have been mentally unable to take part in her own care and that of her baby having medical decisions taken for her with the baby subsequently being placed for adoption due to on going concerns about her ability to care for herself and her child. The other being the systematic elimination of entire races and ethnic groups...

   
Made in eu
Executing Exarch






Since when should a godwin be on topic?

There has to be more to this - as others have said, you don't get sectioned for five weeks for a panic attack.





 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Northern IA

No, actually, it's a comparison of following the law of the land.

You broached the idea that if everything was followed within the law...then the actions are legal and therefore "ok" (regardless of it being terrible).

The Nazi soldiers were following orders and the law of the German government...which in your original statement, makes their actions "ok" because they were legal.

Apples to Apples is all I'm comparing.

I destroy my enemies when I make them my friends.

Three!! Three successful trades! Ah ah ah!
 
   
Made in eu
Executing Exarch






 TheMeanDM wrote:

I suspect that she was kept there for the express purpose of getting her closer to term so that the child could be delivered and taken.


Yes, because obviously british doctors are coming to take all your children through unwarrented surgery. We must have a shortage of Italian dna for the anglo/italian cloning attempts or something...

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/02 15:17:28


 Blacksails wrote:

Its because ordinance is still a word.
However, firing ordinance at someone isn't nearly as threatening as firing ordnance at someone.
Ordinance is a local law, or bill, or other form of legislation.
Ordnance is high caliber explosives.
No 'I' in ordnance.
Don't drown the enemy in legislation, drown them in explosives.
 
   
Made in gb
Avatar of the Bloody-Handed God






Inside your mind, corrupting the pathways

 TheMeanDM wrote:
No, actually, it's a comparison of following the law of the land.

You broached the idea that if everything was followed within the law...then the actions are legal and therefore "ok" (regardless of it being terrible).

The Nazi soldiers were following orders and the law of the German government...which in your original statement, makes their actions "ok" because they were legal.

Apples to Apples is all I'm comparing.


No, you're comparing the laws put in place which sent millions to their deaths and millions more to flee to "safe countries", to one which aims to ensure safety for mother and child in cases where the mother suffers from mental health issues, and which, as far as I can see, has not caused any problems since it was implemented (the last major mental health reforms we had were in 1983).

Kind of like comparing a nuke to a pea shooter. Or a strawman if you will.

   
Made in ca
Lieutenant Colonel






social services,

SS,

its not a coincidence.


jokes aside, SS's have many cases of this kind of overreaching actions...

dont EVER piss off someone who works with SS's, they can and will ruin your life if they are the slightest bit of a douche.

things like http://www.change.org/petitions/stop-the-misuse-and-abuse-of-social-service-agencies-out-of-control-power
http://justicewomen.com/tips_bewarechildprotectiveservices.html
http://amiablyme.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/cover-up-of-abuse-by-social-services-and-staff/
http://www.parents4protest.co.uk/p4p/heartbreaking_abuse_power.htm




are fairly common enough to raise serious concerns with the amount, scope, and use of SS's powers, and not just in any one country.

its like a new TSA, but one that is even more involved with your cervix.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/02 18:16:55


 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Social Services; Bodly going where no one ever wanted us to be.

   
Made in gb
Oberstleutnant





Back in the English morass

 motyak wrote:
So while I agree this is awful, there must be more to it.


This. I see that Dakka has become predictably hysterical again though.

Essex social services obviously thought that there was grounds to do what they did and so did the judge who granted the court order to have this done in the first place. Newspaper reports, especially those based on the biased accounts of the mother, are not going to carry the full story.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/02 18:27:19


RegalPhantom wrote:
If your fluff doesn't fit, change your fluff until it does
The prefect example of someone missing the point.
Do not underestimate the Squats. They survived for millenia cut off from the Imperium and assailed on all sides. Their determination and resilience is an example to us all.
-Leman Russ, Meditations on Imperial Command book XVI (AKA the RT era White Dwarf Commpendium).
Its just a shame that they couldn't fight off Andy Chambers.
Warzone Plog 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

Pretty much everything in the story is justifiable. If she was a danger to herself she is a danger to the child, thus removing the child is arguable necessary to protect it, and then keeping custody until she was well.

What I find bizarre is that the British Government is essentially keeping an infant Italian national in custody against the wishes of its mother who supposedly is now well? Arguably she isn't but even then wouldn't it be more proper for the child to enter the custody of the Italian government? Why is it still in British social services? Is that the law in the UK? EDIT: Is there any word on the father in this? If he were British it would make much more sense to me.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/02 18:41:27


   
Made in us
Member of the Ethereal Council






Sedating a women and removing her child is justifiable?
I call gak on that

5000pts 6000pts 3000pts
 
   
Made in us
Secret Force Behind the Rise of the Tau




USA

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Sedating a women and removing her child is justifiable?
I call gak on that


In extreme cases of mental illness? I could buy it. What I don't buy though is why the child hasn't been returned if she is well.

Of course I do find it something of an oddity that a society that allows abortion goes out of its way to remove a child from the womb due to a supposed danger from its mother. No comment on morals or ethics of aborition, I just find it an odd happenstance.

   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence

 SilverMK2 wrote:
 djones520 wrote:
At any rate... if she wasn't a British citizen, then what grounds did they have to do this in the first place? If this had happened to an American citizen, I hope our State Department would be raising no end of hell over this.


You go somewhere, you liveby their rules. However silly they may be, or how badly applied. Given the very limited amount of information that there is about this case it is hard to know how much was going on in the background both with social services and with the woman's mental health.

If it turns out that the social services and so on acted against the law then I very much hope that those responsible get the book thrown at them. If it looks like everything was done properly, well... it is a horrible situation still but they acted within the law and following all the appropriate guidance...


If they were within the limits of the law, it does not make their actions good or correct. Laws which legitimately allow/justify this type of action need to be changed. As a society, accepting 'well it was legal' and not questioning if it was good and moral seems mighty sheeplike to me. There have been plenty of laws which were wrong/immoral. Believing all current laws are correct and being applied/enforced correctly seems mighty silly.

Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. 
   
 
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