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Except with Overwatch, you cannot do so - the unit nomination is provided through overwatch; all you can do is choose to use Overwatch or not. From that point on you are locked into it, and you bypass step one by definition.

If I pass a morale check automatically, do I still roll the dice? No.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Except with Overwatch, you cannot do so - the unit nomination is provided through overwatch; all you can do is choose to use Overwatch or not. From that point on you are locked into it, and you bypass step one by definition.

If I pass a morale check automatically, do I still roll the dice? No.

Because you'd be following the correct rules for passing said test. You do not pass the test automatically without referring to the rule that allows you to do so.

You do not nominate an overwatching unit without following the rules that allow you to do so.

your ignoring the fact that the overwatch sentence and indeed rule goes on to list, very specifically, the restrictions that are in place for it.

having shot interceptor is not one of them, the indication to use the normal rules for shooting are listed primarily as the LoS, cover ect.

I have a question I only need to ask because I currently don't have a set of rules on me.

Is a unit allowed to shoot overwatch multiple times in a turn? (Assuming the first charge failed)

(I actually do not know)

Duct - and the overwatch rules define the nomination. The nomination IS automatic - there is no choice in the matter. The choice is firing overwatch, or not. Once you choose to use Overwatch, the nomination is defined for you - you cannot follow the shooting rules for that step, it is literally impossible.

there is no loophole here. You CAN fire interceptor and then overwatch


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Duct - no, the overatch rule states you can only Overatch once per turn. With the caveat of "unless told otherwise" - like the tau tank commander.

no you may only fire it once per turn, as defined within it's own context.

this does mean that the charging unit can elect to go to ground, failing the charge automatically but providing a better cover save than what they have.

So even overwatch takes into account that you can only fire once per turn...in it's nomination rules.

So why do people believe that this would not be included as per "follows the normal rules for shooting"?

Because, as pointed out, you bypass that step entirely. You dont get to follow step one, as the nomination is done for you. Same as you dont get to roll dice for a morale check if you are fearless - fearless does it for you.
Same concept.

Are you now arguing RAI?

Caboose wrote:Yes it does. You have to choose the order of shooters, if they will shoot, who gets shot at, and in what order... I dont see how thats an automatic decision.

Because they're automatically nominated... as the Overwatch rules say.

By your logic, there are no choices to the shooting phase, because its automatic that you you must shoot one of your units at one of the enemies.

Nope, never said that. At all. Don't put words in my mouth please. The shooting phase is different because you have the choice to nominate. Overwatch doesn't give you that choice - you just have the choice to fire or not.

Automatic means you have no choice. I understand your argument if there is one shooter and one assaulter, but when presented with multiples of each, you must make choices, hence the situational aspect and removal of the "automatic" resolution.

You do not have a choice - the unit has been nominated to make a shooting attack. You can choose not to make that shooting attack but that doesn't change that unit was nominated.

EDIT: Im not ignoring the "requirements" for a "normal" overwatch shot. Im showing why your argument of "automatic nomination" is invalid.

So please, show me where in the Overwatch rules it is the shooting phase?

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Even if there is only one unit eligible to fire overwatch, I would say the nomination isn't any more automatic than it is if it's your shooting phase and you only have one unit left on the board. You still have to nominate that unit to shoot, and meet the requirements set forth on page 12 for nominating a unit.

The Overwatch rules take care of that nomination for you, as I've said. You have zero choice as to that.

Now that we have established that the verbiage of that summary box is indeed important, on to the "Nominate Unit to Shoot" section of the chapter to see what additional information we can find beyond what's in the summary. This section is about 7 sentences long and only says a few things:
- "During the Shooting Phase"
- unit must be armed with ranged weapons
- unit cannot be locked in close combat
- unit cannot be running
- "This is not a comprehensive list"

The overwatch rules provide an exception to the Shooting Phase requirement, even if it isn't lawyer-like enough for rigeld2 (I'm sorry, but you're pants-on-head if you think RAW prevents you from firing overwatch at all because it isn't the Shooting Phase). It doesn't provide exceptions for anything else, including nominating which unit is shooting (which is good, because Tau supporting fire potentially makes things messy in that regard). Just because only one unit is eligible to shoot does not mean you skip the first step in the shooting sequence, it just means you're nominating a unit to shoot from a pool of 1 eligible units.

The bolded is insulting and not warranted, at all. Please try to be polite.

As soon as a charge has been declared against one of your units, that unit can immediately fire Overwatch at the would-be attacker - it doesn't have to, but it's often a good idea.

That unit can immediately fire means it's been nominated. I'm not sure how you can take it otherwise.
As far as the rule that brought your insult out,

albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase

You are told to resolve a shooting attack in the enemy's assault phase. I've asked before and have never been shown where in the enemy's assault phase your shooting phase is. The rule does not say "Resolve the shooting attack as if it was your shooting phase". You're inventing rules to pretend your stance is more correct or has some legitimacy when in fact your stance requires you to ignore a rule.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because, as pointed out, you bypass that step entirely. You dont get to follow step one, as the nomination is done for you. Same as you dont get to roll dice for a morale check if you are fearless - fearless does it for you.
Same concept.

Are you now arguing RAI?

I am arguing that nomination, even if automatic, was given a ruleset to follow. "Normal rules for shooting" and even has an exception, "used during the enemy's assault phase" in order to follow that ruleset.

 ductvader wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because, as pointed out, you bypass that step entirely. You dont get to follow step one, as the nomination is done for you. Same as you dont get to roll dice for a morale check if you are fearless - fearless does it for you.
Same concept.

Are you now arguing RAI?

I am arguing that nomination, even if automatic, was given a ruleset to follow. "Normal rules for shooting" and even has an exception, "used during the enemy's assault phase" in order to follow that ruleset.

"albiet" is not an exception. At all. It means "although". So it tells you to resolve a normal shooting attack in the enemy's assault phase. If you are forcing a nomination to take place, no unit can be nominated because it is not the shooting phase, although you're resolving it in the enemy's assault phase.

Yes, and step 1 cannot occur. Do yopu roll dice for a fearless unit? No, because passing was automatic. Do you nominate the unit, after stating that it will fire overwatch? No, because the unit is now locked into shooting, prior to getting to step one, becasue that is what overwatch does.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
your ignoring the fact that the overwatch sentence and indeed rule goes on to list, very specifically, the restrictions that are in place for it.

having shot interceptor is not one of them, the indication to use the normal rules for shooting are listed primarily as the LoS, cover ect.

Ok, two points:

First, when the overwatch section says to use the normal rules for shooting, it provides a few examples, not a complete list: "An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack... and uses
all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on." (emphasis added) Unless you can figure out an exhaustive list of things that "and so on" is meant to cover, we just treat it like a normal shooting attack, "albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase". That phrase is the only exception they give to the normal shooting rules, while everything else is an additional restriction on the normal shooting rules imposed when using overwatch.

Second, the additional restrictions placed on overwatch do not invalidate anything about the normal rules for shooting, they're just in addition. In "Nominate Unit to Shoot" on p. 12, it says: "This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit's ability to shoot - this is explained thoroughly when it occurs." Overwatch would be one of those times when it occurs, so restrictions on firing overwatch are added to the normal restrictions on what units are eligible to shoot.

Barring any instructions to skip step 1 of the shooting sequence, I don't think you can. Saying that your unit is "automatically" nominated is not supported by anything in the rulebook, unlike the example of Fearless units "automatically" passing morale checks, which is explicitly stated in the rules for Fearless.

It's not cut-and-dry either way. Games Workshop writes complex rules in conversational language. This is what happens.

Albeit also means, notwithstanding, even though, nevertheless, in spite of. without being opposed or prevented by.

A singular definition of a word does not prove your case.


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 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

It's not cut-and-dry either way. Games Workshop writes complex rules in conversational language. This is what happens.

I agree completely.

 ductvader wrote:
Albeit also means, notwithstanding, even though, nevertheless, in spite of. without being opposed or prevented by.

Those are synonyms, not definitions. You do understand the difference, right?

A singular definition of a word does not prove your case.

When that word only has one definition... and none of your synonyms prove your case either.

 ductvader wrote:
So even overwatch takes into account that you can only fire once per turn...in it's nomination rules.

So why do people believe that this would not be included as per "follows the normal rules for shooting"?

no...it says that you may only fire 'overwatch' once per turn, it does not say 'you may only fire once per turn, ever and forever once'.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 ductvader wrote:
So even overwatch takes into account that you can only fire once per turn...in it's nomination rules.

So why do people believe that this would not be included as per "follows the normal rules for shooting"?

no...it says that you may only fire 'overwatch' once per turn, it does not say 'you may only fire once per turn, ever and forever once'.

That was not my point.

It was what you were aiming at though.

The overwatch restriction interacts not one jot with the shooting phase restriction.

It is why I asked if you were arguing RAI

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It was what you were aiming at though.

The overwatch restriction interacts not one jot with the shooting phase restriction.

It is why I asked if you were arguing RAI

I was simply stating that it keeps being argued that the rule for shooting once per game is somehow not covered by "normal rules for shooting."

Even when overwatch takes it into account somewhat. It just seemed arbitrary from the opposition.



p. 12, it says: "This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit's ability to shoot - this is explained thoroughly when it occurs."

I don't see anywhere in overwatch where it "thoroughly explains" where it denies this "normal rule for shooting"

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
your ignoring the fact that the overwatch sentence and indeed rule goes on to list, very specifically, the restrictions that are in place for it.

having shot interceptor is not one of them, the indication to use the normal rules for shooting are listed primarily as the LoS, cover ect.

Ok, two points:

First, when the overwatch section says to use the normal rules for shooting, it provides a few examples, not a complete list: "An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack... and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on." (emphasis added) Unless you can figure out an exhaustive list of things that "and so on" is meant to cover, we just treat it like a normal shooting attack, "albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault phase". That phrase is the only exception they give to the normal shooting rules, while everything else is an additional restriction on the normal shooting rules imposed when using overwatch.

not true at all, considering that the examples they give you all happen during the actual shooting of the weapon, the trigger for overwatch to take place is a unit being charged and the target of the attack is the unit that is charging or trigger unit if you will, resolved as a normal shooting attack is rolling to hit, rolling to wound, taking saves and removing casualties. the shooting phase deals with nominating a unit to fire, nominating a target and then shooting them, since we need to dumb it down a bit, since we are not the ones nominating nor are we selecting a target, neither sets of restrictions and or rules are used.

Second, the additional restrictions placed on overwatch do not invalidate anything about the normal rules for shooting, they're just in addition. In "Nominate Unit to Shoot" on p. 12, it says: "This is not a comprehensive list. Other game rules or special rules can sometimes affect a unit's ability to shoot - this is explained thoroughly when it occurs." Overwatch would be one of those times when it occurs, so restrictions on firing overwatch are added to the normal restrictions on what units are eligible to shoot.

not true at all, the restrictions are for an overwatch shooting attack, which is what we are discussing, the shooting phase rules are for attacks made in the shooting phase, the resolution of a shooting attack would be the rolling to hit, rolling to wound, rolling saves and removal of casualties.

Barring any instructions to skip step 1 of the shooting sequence, I don't think you can. Saying that your unit is "automatically" nominated is not supported by anything in the rulebook, unlike the example of Fearless units "automatically" passing morale checks, which is explicitly stated in the rules for Fearless.

again untrue, they are indeed supported, p21 second paragraph of the overwatch rule, the chargee may shoot the charger.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
again untrue, they are indeed supported, p21 second paragraph of the overwatch rule, the chargee may shoot the charger.

And where in overwatch does it say, even if the chargee has already shot this turn?

It's certainly not thoroughly explained that they're allowed to do so.

 ductvader wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
again untrue, they are indeed supported, p21 second paragraph of the overwatch rule, the chargee may shoot the charger.

And where in overwatch does it say, even if the chargee has already shot this turn?

It's certainly not thoroughly explained that they're allowed to do so.

permissive ruleset, show me where in the overwatch rule it says I cannot

Overwatch rules are more specific than the Shooting phase rules.
Overwatch rules give permission to shoot.
Nothing denies that permission to shoot.

Specific > General.

This is all in addition to the fact that you're chasing a rule that doesn't exist.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
again untrue, they are indeed supported, p21 second paragraph of the overwatch rule, the chargee may shoot the charger.

And where in overwatch does it say, even if the chargee has already shot this turn?

It's certainly not thoroughly explained that they're allowed to do so.

permissive ruleset, show me where in the overwatch rule it says I cannot

"follows the rules for normal shooting"

normal shooting does not allow a unit to fire more than once per player turn

no, the nomination process does not a allow you to nominate a unit that has already shot this turn to fire, you are not nominating them, they are selected for you by your opponent when he charged and overwatch allows you to shoot, specific permission trumps blanket denial.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
no, the nomination process does not a allow you to nominate a unit that has already shot this turn to fire, you are not nominating them, they are selected for you by your opponent when he charged and overwatch allows you to shoot, specific permission trumps blanket denial.

It's not specific, it is not thoroughly explained that the shooting supercedes normal shooting rules or the nomination process altogether.

rigeld2 wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Because, as pointed out, you bypass that step entirely. You dont get to follow step one, as the nomination is done for you. Same as you dont get to roll dice for a morale check if you are fearless - fearless does it for you.
Same concept.

Are you now arguing RAI?

I am arguing that nomination, even if automatic, was given a ruleset to follow. "Normal rules for shooting" and even has an exception, "used during the enemy's assault phase" in order to follow that ruleset.

"albiet" is not an exception. At all. It means "although". So it tells you to resolve a normal shooting attack in the enemy's assault phase. If you are forcing a nomination to take place, no unit can be nominated because it is not the shooting phase, although you're resolving it in the enemy's assault phase.

This is why I called this argument "pants-on-head" (the argument you're making, not you personally, I don't know you at all).

Your entire justification for skipping the first step of the shooting phase boils down to:

1. Make a leap of logic with no basis in the text: Assume that because you (sometimes) don't have a choice in which unit is shooting, you get to skip restrictions that are spelled out in the step where you pick which unit is shooting, even though you are completely assuming this and it is not stated anywhere that you should actually skip this step.
2a. Make a really narrow interpretation in spite of solid evidence in the text: Since "albeit [this shooting attack is] resolved in the enemy's Assault phase" means "although [this shooting attack is] resolved in the enemy's Assault phase" it clearly means where the rules say you nominate a unit during your Shooting phase everything must break, in spite of pretty clear permission to resolve our shooting attack in the enemy's Assault phase.
2b. Followed by another enormous leap of logic to back up point 1: Now that we have twisted the excerpt in 2a. to suit our own ends, we can use the fact that it breaks step 1 of the shooting sequence to support our invented notion that we are meant to entirely ignore step 1 of the shooting sequence!

You can try to argue that permission isn't clear enough to use the shooting rules at all because the shooting rules are meant for the shooting phase, in which case all of overwatch is broken. But you can't turn around and use that to support the idea that permission is somehow implied to skip the first step in the shooting sequence, even though the book never says that or anything similar to that. Either you're interpreting the rules narrowly, or you're doing whatever you feel like and searching for things that support it.

If nomination never occurs, then you also wouldn't be allowed to choose a unit to shoot when one unit is charging two of your shooting units.

Does it happen simultaneously? If so are you then required to roll all the shooting for both units in the same hand? If not, it's not simultaneous and one unit had to have been nominated to shoot first. How do you decide after that which models to pull first? The models that are closest to unit A or unit B?

The nomination step is integral in deciding overwatch.

again, second paragraph, please show me how this is not an automatic nomination of the target and the shooter and where the restriction in the overwatch rule restrictions state that this is the case.

as I have already pointed to these factors I'm not going to keep repeating it after this post, but the fact of the matter is, this is an out of sequence shooting attack and permission has already been given to shoot in it, the permission to shoot trumps a blanket restriction to shoot even if you were nominating (which you are not) as this is how a permissive ruleset works, I have permission until something specifically tells me not to OR I cannot do this unless something specifically tells me I can.

rigeld2 wrote:
Overwatch rules are more specific than the Shooting phase rules.
Overwatch rules give permission to shoot.
Nothing denies that permission to shoot.

Specific > General.

This is all in addition to the fact that you're chasing a rule that doesn't exist.

Overwatch rules give permission to shoot following all the rules for normal shooting.

Your specific permission to shoot simply references the general rules for shooting as far as how to carry out said shooting. It adds other caveats but doesn't exempt you from anything else in the rules for the Shooting phase, with the one exception that you are clearly allowed to do it in the enemy's Assault phase.