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Hello, people.

Before I came to Dakkadakka, I and my little gaming group of 6-7 friends were playing together, painting, converting, making armies out of the models that we liked, and played. We gave little thought to questioning the rules or even if they were balanced or not. This all changed when we came here. I really like this forum but I can't look at 40K the same way again. For example, I had planned on adding a Heldrake to my army as I liked the model. Now, I feel uncertain. I have noticed how broken it is, and given that my friends' armies are not competetive in the slightest, I would feel bad if I sent such a top-tier unit against them. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Lootas, Vendetta, flying Hive Tyrant... Thousand Sons, Flash Gits, Pyrovores... Many are the units we view very differently now.

Now, this is not a problem that is solveable currently, really. We continue as we did in the past, but we are now minding a bit more of how strong the units we take really are. My question to you is, have you had similar experiences?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Hello, people.

Before I came to Dakkadakka, I and my little gaming group of 6-7 friends were playing together, painting, converting, making armies out of the models that we liked, and played. We gave little thought to questioning the rules or even if they were balanced or not. This all changed when we came here. I really like this forum but I can't look at 40K the same way again. For example, I had planned on adding a Heldrake to my army as I liked the model. Now, I feel uncertain. I have noticed how broken it is, and given that my friends' armies are not competetive in the slightest, I would feel bad if I sent such a top-tier unit against them. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Lootas, Vendetta, flying Hive Tyrant... Thousand Sons, Flash Gits, Pyrovores... Many are the units we view very differently now.

Now, this is not a problem that is solveable currently, really. We continue as we did in the past, but we are now minding a bit more of how strong the units we take really are. My question to you is, have you had similar experiences?

No, I dont by any means bring a competative list when I game but any player worth his salt should be able to deal with a single enemy top tier model/ unit. Just force enough saves and anything will die. And its not wrong to take a unit like the ones you mentioned unless you plan on spamming them. or bringing in allies with similar things avalibal to them.
So to sum it up, I dont contemplate any of the things I bring to the table, my opponents should be able to deal with anything I place on it, and I should be able to deal with anything they bring along

Yeah, the forums certainly opened my eyes up.

I've slowly been drifting away from 40k as my main wargaming interest and moved into other systems, partly from knowledge gained here as well.

I think I've learned more about the wargaming hobby as a whole and have a better understanding of game balance and design. So 40k lost, but the hobby won as a whole thanks to these forums, for me. The fluff and the models for 40k are really what's keeping me somewhat invested/buying.

This is exactly the reason why I never post my army lists on forums like this anymore. I don't want to post my daemon list and have some guy go "Where's the screamerstar? Where's Fateweaver? You need these things or you'll lose." No, go away.

I know the feels man. Going through the forums makes it seem like 40k is so broke and meh.

When in fact whenever I've played a game I've had a lot of fun. Guess it's not all about being super über crazy competitive after all.

Well, in its totality, the game is broke and meh. But in your local scene, you might not have people taking advantage of the things that make it broke and meh, so you don't encounter the broke and meh bits, just the good stuff.

Yeah, a few things you've got to know before you drown yourself in misery of a web forum...

- Everyone has an opinion about everything, which they will share at every possible opportunity. Many people will drag threads completely off-topic if that's what it takes.

- There is consensus, but that's meaningless. Psychologists well understand how people behave when they're in groups. Groupthink, echo-chambers, peer pressure, etc. Just because two people (or a majority, or even everybody) agree on something doesn't make them right.

- On dakka, in specific, most people want a different thing from 40k than you do. What you want is to have fun and to have friends. The loudest people on dakka want to show how superior they are to others by beating the pants off of them in a dice game. You know, something that involves neither fun nor friends, just winning. As such, you can safely ignore people who are speaking a language you don't about a thing that's different than you want.

- There's nothing wrong with thinking things through, though. It can be part of the fun if you want it. If you don't, then don't bother. just go back to how you were doing things before.

To me the forums are like a bad traffic accident. You don't want to look... but you kinda gotta look.

However, this forum does not change the way that I nor my friends enjoy this game.

 Ailaros wrote:
You know, something that involves neither fun nor friends, just winning.

Yeah, it can only be fun with friends if you are doing it the 'right' way...

End of innocence? Yep, that's what happens when you leave your small circle of friends and start seeing outside opinions. But that's a problem with 40k, not with forums. All the forums do is reveal the obvious truth, that 40k is a deeply flawed game. If you'd started a better game you would have come to that game's forums and learned about how good the game is.

 insaniak wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
You know, something that involves neither fun nor friends, just winning.

Yeah, it can only be fun with friends if you are doing it the 'right' way...

I think he was referring to me specifically. And he is right. I do not play this game for competition, there are far better games for that out there. I play it to have fun with my friends, and for the rather interesting attached hobby.

 Ailaros wrote:
- On dakka, in specific, most people want a different thing from 40k than you do. What you want is to have fun and to have friends. The loudest people on dakka want to show how superior they are to others by beating the pants off of them in a dice game. You know, something that involves neither fun nor friends, just winning. As such, you can safely ignore people who are speaking a language you don't about a thing that's different than you want.

And once again you demonstrate that you have no idea what you're talking about. It's sad that you've gone from providing interesting tactics discussion in 5th to just ranting about how everyone who doesn't play the game exactly the way you do can't possibly be having any fun.

I think a good alternate title for this thread is "The Internet: Ruiner of Things".

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think he was referring to me specifically.

No, he was making a general point. Ailaros' army got severely nerfed in 6th, and his response was to start insisting that everyone else is ruining the game by being too serious about a dice game. Read enough of his posts and you'll see conflicting arguments about how 40k is simultaneously a dice game where skill is irrelevant, and a game where WAAC players ruin the game by making all the best decisions.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
- On dakka, in specific, most people want a different thing from 40k than you do. What you want is to have fun and to have friends. The loudest people on dakka want to show how superior they are to others by beating the pants off of them in a dice game. You know, something that involves neither fun nor friends, just winning. As such, you can safely ignore people who are speaking a language you don't about a thing that's different than you want.

And once again you demonstrate that you have no idea what you're talking about. It's sad that you've gone from providing interesting tactics discussion in 5th to just ranting about how everyone who doesn't play the game exactly the way you do can't possibly be having any fun.

Funnily enough players like you dont do much other than complain about how crap 40k is. At least the people you trash talk to find the fun side when playing their friends and other like minded gamers. I look at you're comments and all i can see is some sad angry guy who hates the 40k game and also hates the people who have fun playing it. You rip into people for not understanding how you people play this game but its you people who say the most negative comments about it. At least us casual players dislike the people that play a certain way and can have fun playing the game for what it is. To me, how you talk about this game shows me you are not having fun at all. Lighten up and relax dude.

Maybe if you stopped exploiting the game and playing it like its a giant arms race you would enjoy it a hell of a lot more and have nice things to say to people. Im very glad weeds like you dont grow in my gaming group, because over all no one has fun around players with your view. Because all they can do is complain about how broken the game is whilst using all the OP units you can cram in your lists.

I have a question, do you smile or laugh at all in any of your games....?

 Swastakowey wrote:
I look at you're comments and all i can see is some sad angry guy who hates the 40k game and also hates the people who have fun playing it.

Oh good, some nice personal attacks. I don't have people who have fun playing 40k, I just disagree with them about whether 40k is a good game or not. People can have fun playing bad games, a fact that is demonstrated every time a parent has fun playing a "roll the dice and move forward that many spaces" game with their children.

Maybe if you stopped exploiting the game and playing it like its a giant arms race you would enjoy it a hell of a lot more and have nice things to say to people.

Maybe if you tried reading my criticism before complaining about it you'd understand that even if you stop the "arms race" my points about 40k's rules being a bloated mess still stand. Agreeing to keep my Vendettas at home if my opponent doesn't bring their screamerstar list doesn't do anything about fundamental problems like having to spend half an hour trying not to fall asleep from sheer boredom while my opponent plays the game. We're still stuck with the completely broken and fun-killing IGOUGO system of a 1980s fantasy game.

Because all they can do is complain about how broken the game is whilst using all the OP units you can cram in your lists.

Hint: I don't cram all the overpowered units I can into my list.

I think internet forums are a good thing. The fact that they can provide opinions from so many different demographics is wonderful. And Ailaros, dakkadakka doesnt really display groupthink. No one is trying to agree with everyone here. In fact, I think individual gaming groups are very, very susceptible to groupthink. The fact that this topic is a testament to that.

My hypothesis on why people think everyone on dakka says you can only play a certain way is because the same few posters reply in the army lists and tactics forum. And, what a surpise, they have the same opinion consistently

Its a case of confirmation bias really which is a problem on this forum.

Really because your only advice is "more vandettas".... goes to show what kind of player you are when writing lists.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
- On dakka, in specific, most people want a different thing from 40k than you do. What you want is to have fun and to have friends. The loudest people on dakka want to show how superior they are to others by beating the pants off of them in a dice game. You know, something that involves neither fun nor friends, just winning. As such, you can safely ignore people who are speaking a language you don't about a thing that's different than you want.

And once again you demonstrate that you have no idea what you're talking about. It's sad that you've gone from providing interesting tactics discussion in 5th to just ranting about how everyone who doesn't play the game exactly the way you do can't possibly be having any fun.

Funnily enough players like you dont do much other than complain about how crap 40k is. At least the people you trash talk to find the fun side when playing their friends and other like minded gamers. I look at you're comments and all i can see is some sad angry guy who hates the 40k game and also hates the people who have fun playing it. You rip into people for not understanding how you people play this game but its you people who say the most negative comments about it. At least us casual players dislike the people that play a certain way and can have fun playing the game for what it is. To me, how you talk about this game shows me you are not having fun at all. Lighten up and relax dude.

Maybe if you stopped exploiting the game and playing it like its a giant arms race you would enjoy it a hell of a lot more and have nice things to say to people. Im very glad weeds like you dont grow in my gaming group, because over all no one has fun around players with your view. Because all they can do is complain about how broken the game is whilst using all the OP units you can cram in your lists.

I have a question, do you smile or laugh at all in any of your games....?

ya dude. we usually laugh and banter banter banter. then we put on some music and dance around. really positive man. it's all really positive.

my bro was feeling down the other day so we bought him an orange mocha frappuccino. it really lifted his spirits man.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Really because your only advice is "more vandettas".... goes to show what kind of player you are when writing lists.

That's because it's the tactics forum, not the "I like to have fun" forum. If someone posts a request for advice on tactics then the correct answer is the advice that gives them the best chance of winning. You might not like the fact that Vendettas are overpowered, but 95% of the time they should be in an IG list. So until GW fixes that problem any discussion of IG tactics is going to have to account for the fact that Vendettas exist and are the best choice.

 Peregrine wrote:
People can have fun playing bad games, a fact that is demonstrated every time a parent has fun playing a "roll the dice and move forward that many spaces" game with their children.

But if one has fun playing a game, surely said game has succeeded in its purpose? To entertain?

 Peregrine wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Really because your only advice is "more vandettas".... goes to show what kind of player you are when writing lists.

That's because it's the tactics forum, not the "I like to have fun" forum. If someone posts a request for advice on tactics then the correct answer is the advice that gives them the best chance of winning. You might not like the fact that Vendettas are overpowered, but 95% of the time they should be in an IG list. So until GW fixes that problem any discussion of IG tactics is going to have to account for the fact that Vendettas exist and are the best choice.

Yes but even in threads where they state "i do not want to use vandettas" your advice is still "use vandettas". If you where truly giving out advice you would go "barring the use of the vandetta your next option in my opinion would be...." and so on.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Hello, people.

Before I came to Dakkadakka, I and my little gaming group of 6-7 friends were playing together, painting, converting, making armies out of the models that we liked, and played. We gave little thought to questioning the rules or even if they were balanced or not. This all changed when we came here. I really like this forum but I can't look at 40K the same way again. For example, I had planned on adding a Heldrake to my army as I liked the model. Now, I feel uncertain. I have noticed how broken it is, and given that my friends' armies are not competetive in the slightest, I would feel bad if I sent such a top-tier unit against them. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Lootas, Vendetta, flying Hive Tyrant... Thousand Sons, Flash Gits, Pyrovores... Many are the units we view very differently now.

Now, this is not a problem that is solveable currently, really. We continue as we did in the past, but we are now minding a bit more of how strong the units we take really are. My question to you is, have you had similar experiences?

Every army has a unit, or combination of units that are powerful and some are downright broken, but there is a big difference between taking one of said broken unit, and spamming it. One helldrake i think you will find is fine, and will push your opponents to try to counter it and adopt new tactics and take new units to limit the damage it can do, and take it down. Proper spacing of a unit can reduce casualties, and taking dedicated AA units can down it fairly easily, hell, flyers in general will not have much trouble killing it.

Where the problems with broken units start is when you or your opponents take multiples, so while one helldrake will force your opponents to step up their game a little, 3 will probably make them, casual players that you seem to be, curse your name and compare you to various dairy products. the same can be said for riptides, wave serpents, wraith and nightscythes, artillery spam in general, venoms and such like.

Adding in powerful units is a good thing, and if you like the model then powerful units make a great centerpiece. At the end of the day, every gaming group is different, and you should judge whether something will be crossing the line on the basis of your own group rather than the internet, but don't not take a unit because you think its crossing the line, take it and see what happens. you can always not include it later on if you and your group judge something to be too powerful

madtankbloke wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Hello, people.

Before I came to Dakkadakka, I and my little gaming group of 6-7 friends were playing together, painting, converting, making armies out of the models that we liked, and played. We gave little thought to questioning the rules or even if they were balanced or not. This all changed when we came here. I really like this forum but I can't look at 40K the same way again. For example, I had planned on adding a Heldrake to my army as I liked the model. Now, I feel uncertain. I have noticed how broken it is, and given that my friends' armies are not competetive in the slightest, I would feel bad if I sent such a top-tier unit against them. This is just the tip of the iceberg. Lootas, Vendetta, flying Hive Tyrant... Thousand Sons, Flash Gits, Pyrovores... Many are the units we view very differently now.

Now, this is not a problem that is solveable currently, really. We continue as we did in the past, but we are now minding a bit more of how strong the units we take really are. My question to you is, have you had similar experiences?

Every army has a unit, or combination of units that are powerful and some are downright broken, but there is a big difference between taking one of said broken unit, and spamming it. One helldrake i think you will find is fine, and will push your opponents to try to counter it and adopt new tactics and take new units to limit the damage it can do, and take it down. Proper spacing of a unit can reduce casualties, and taking dedicated AA units can down it fairly easily, hell, flyers in general will not have much trouble killing it.

Where the problems with broken units start is when you or your opponents take multiples, so while one helldrake will force your opponents to step up their game a little, 3 will probably make them, casual players that you seem to be, curse your name and compare you to various dairy products. the same can be said for riptides, wave serpents, wraith and nightscythes, artillery spam in general, venoms and such like.

Adding in powerful units is a good thing, and if you like the model then powerful units make a great centerpiece. At the end of the day, every gaming group is different, and you should judge whether something will be crossing the line on the basis of your own group rather than the internet, but don't not take a unit because you think its crossing the line, take it and see what happens. you can always not include it later on if you and your group judge something to be too powerful

Another thing to consider is its not always what you use its how you use it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think he was referring to me specifically.

No, he was making a general point. Ailaros' army got severely nerfed in 6th, and his response was to start insisting that everyone else is ruining the game by being too serious about a dice game. Read enough of his posts and you'll see conflicting arguments about how 40k is simultaneously a dice game where skill is irrelevant, and a game where WAAC players ruin the game by making all the best decisions.

Skill and list building are not the same thing, as you seem to be inferring here. A game can require no skill, and simultaneously reward the person who spams the most overpowered junk - those two aspectsare not mutually exclusive. I agree with all your other game-related points though

OP, take your helldrake and run with it. If you stop having fun because its super powerful or whatever, just use whatever measures you think are appropriate to balance it out - you might decide to simply take a few less points, or run it without the flamer or something. And if it doesn't negatively affect your fun, because believe it or not it is not a fun sucking magnet as some (including myself) have inferred from time to time on the site - then keep using it!

Don't take dakkadakka too seriously. I did for a time (hence 2k posts) and it sucks alllll the fun out of the game. All of it.

i love how a thread about negativity on the internet has been hit by the same old posters stating with catagorical fact that 40k is objectively crap and you had blinkers on, bla bla bla.

I'd alert a mod but one has already posted so presumably they're cool with it.

To the op - running a single helldrake does not constitute spam or cheesy behaivour. Nothing in 40k is so inbalanced that taking a single one will tilt the power completely in your favour, in fact a helldrake will be crappy against many armies.

OP, play what you want, and care not for internet blubbering.

Play a model because you like it and it's cool.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
OP, play what you want, and care not for internet blubbering.

Play a model because you like it and it's cool.

Ultimately this. DakkaDakka won't come and flip your game board if you use Valkyries instead of Vendettas. It's just a better idea to use the other if being competitive is your thing.

xruslanx wrote:
i love how a thread about negativity on the internet has been hit by the same old posters stating with catagorical fact that 40k is objectively crap and you had blinkers on, bla bla bla.

I love how another thread where someone dared to criticize 40k has been hit by the same old xruslanx white knighting and complaining about how wrong we all are without ever bothering to address the criticism.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:
But if one has fun playing a game, surely said game has succeeded in its purpose? To entertain?

No, because that's a really low standard. You might have fun playing 40k despite its bad rules, but you'd probably have more fun if the rules were better.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Subject: Forums, the end of innocence

And now we see why the title of this thread is a statement and not a question.