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 Peregrine wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
The word is BENEFIT, singular. The BENEFIT of the Rule. Singular. The single rule. Not parts of it.

Yes, benefit singular. The single benefit removed is the distance-dependent cove save bonus.

Except distance dependent cover and the limitation on range are all inclusive under a single paragraph that discusses the effects of (not Benefits or Restrictions...words you keep adding to change the meaning of the entire rule) Night fight. Note also that NF splits the distance dependent cover into 2 separate bonus...1 for Stealth and 1 for Shrouded. Using your plurality, these would be different, multiple, benefits. Again, a plurality where none exists.

Your words...that do not appear anywhere in the NF rule.

Yes, because GW expects you to understand simple English sentences and know that when a rule has good things and bad things it's obvious which of the two is referred to by "benefit".

Understanding the difference between the singular and plural is basic English.
But lets take a look at another rule that does contain both benfits and restrictions: Infiltrate. In this case your benefit(s) are clearly spelled out in 1 para: the ability to deploy closer to the enemy; while your restrictions are spelled out in a separate para: the inability to assault with those units on Turn 1. It then lists a 3rd para with another benefit: conferring Outflkank. Followed by a 4th para restriction: ICs without cannot join and infiltrate with them.
If GW had intended the effects of NF to be separated into Benefits and Restrictions, they would have separated the different effects instead of using them together to describe the total effect of the rule.

dkellyj wrote:
If GW had intended the effects of NF to be separated into Benefits and Restrictions, they would have separated the different effects instead of using them together to describe the total effect of the rule.

You're making an assumption here that the only valid separation is making a new paragraph, and a set of sentences describing the different effects doesn't count as separate.

dkellyj wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So please cite the rule that allows the searchlight to negate a rule on an unlimited amount of units.

I think I've been absolutely clear that we are talking about 2 specific units...the one being lit by the light, and the one using the light.

No, you're not talking about the one using the light. You're talking about the next unit after the target has been lit up that is now shooting.

Your assertion is that the searchlight removes the night fight rule for the target unit and that includes the shooting unit. This means any shooting unit. Which means I'm sure you have a citation giving you permission to remove the night fighting rule from every shooting unit - since that's where the range restriction is. It's demonstrably not on the target unit.

 Peregrine wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
I think I've been absolutely clear that we are talking about 2 specific units...the one being lit by the light, and the one using the light.

The point you just missed was that "may not shoot at anything more than 36" away" is a rule applied to every unit on the table, not to the unit that gets illuminated by the searchlight. So please cite the rule that allows a searchlight to remove a rule from every unit on the table.

You are missing the point. No where does it say, nor have I ever implied, that Searchlights remove the NF rule from EVERY unit on the table. The Search Light rule is very clear (and I have been) that when used it removes the NF rule from the UNIT (singular) being hit by the light. In addition, the UNIT (again, singular) using the light has also lost the benefit (singular) of the NF Rule.
No other units on the table are affected...unless I use another units light to illuminate a second unit.
For example:
My Rhino illuminates you Chimera. My Devastators now shoot your Chimera with no NF cover save bonuses. Devs kill Chimera.
Then I use a second Rhino to illuminate your Russ tank. My Las-Pred now gets to shoot your Russ with no NF cover save bonuses. Pred immobilizes Russ
On your turn (still night fight) your HWS is free to shoot at my Rhino that used a search light with no restrictions (the use of the light removed the benefit of NF for that Rhino.
Your immobile Russ may now shoot at the 2nd Rhino without restriction (again, NF is benefit is removed from that Rhino.
During both those player turns, every other unit on the board was still subject to the NF Rule. since they were never lighted or used lights.

dkellyj wrote:
You are missing the point. No where does it say, nor have I ever implied, that Searchlights remove the NF rule from EVERY unit on the table.

Yes you did. The "can't choose a target more than 36" away" rule is applied to every unit on the table. To allow a unit to shoot at an illuminated unit more than 36" away you have to remove that effect from every unit on the table when trying to shoot at the illuminated unit. This is clearly against what the rule says when it removes the night fighting benefit from a SINGLE unit.

dkellyj wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
I think I've been absolutely clear that we are talking about 2 specific units...the one being lit by the light, and the one using the light.

The point you just missed was that "may not shoot at anything more than 36" away" is a rule applied to every unit on the table, not to the unit that gets illuminated by the searchlight. So please cite the rule that allows a searchlight to remove a rule from every unit on the table.

You are missing the point. No where does it say, nor have I ever implied, that Searchlights remove the NF rule from EVERY unit on the table. The Search Light rule is very clear (and I have been) that when used it removes the NF rule from the UNIT (singular) being hit by the light. In addition, the UNIT (again, singular) using the light has also lost the benefit (singular) of the NF Rule.
No other units on the table are affected...unless I use another units light to illuminate a second unit.
For example:
My Rhino illuminates you Chimera. My Las-Pred now gets to shoot your Chimera with no NF cover save bonuses. Pred kills Rhino.
Then I use a second Rhino to illuminate your Russ tank. My Vindicator now gets to shoot your Russ with no NF cover save bonuses. Vindi immobilizes Russ
On your turn (still night fight) your HWS is free to shoot at my Rhino that used a search light with no restrictions (the use of the light removed the benefit of NF for that Rhino.
Your immobile Russ may now shoot at the 2nd Rhino without restriction (again, NF is benefit is removed from that Rhino.
During both those player turns, every other unit on the board was still subject to the NF Rule. since they were never lighted or used lights.

Which unit is the 36" range restriction applied to - the target or the shooter? Simple, one word answer please.

Um...wrong. The 36" range limit is removed from the unit lighted and the unit doing the lighting. No where were we talking about "every unit on the table."
But I appreciate you trying to cloud the issue.

dkellyj wrote:
Um...wrong. The 36" range limit is removed from the unit lighted and the unit doing the lighting. No where were we talking about "every unit on the table."
But I appreciate you trying to cloud the issue.

The unit doing the lighting isn't firing.
The unit being targeted isn't firing.
The 36" range is a restriction applied to the firing unit, explicitly not the target unit.
This is a fact that you continuously ignore, to the detriment of your argument.
The 36" range does not apply to the targeted unit. It cannot ever as you are forbidden from targeting beyond that distance.

***Which unit is the 36" range restriction applied to - the target or the shooter? Simple, one word answer please.***

It is applied to the UNIT (the shooter to use your language) who does the initial Search Lighting. That unit must be within 36".
Once search lit, those 2 specific units (lighter and lightee) lose the Night Fight Rule. That means my next shooting unit can target the lighted unit at max range (missiles at 48" lets say). It also means in your shooting phase you have no range limitations should you decide to shoot the unit who used the light (your HWS also at 48"). For all other units on the board, all 3 effects of NF remain.

dkellyj wrote:

***Which unit is the 36" range restriction applied to - the target or the shooter? Simple, one word answer please.***

It is applied to the UNIT (the shooter to use your language) who does the initial Search Lighting. That unit must be within 36".
Once search lit, those 2 specific units (lighter and lightee) lose the Night Fight Rule. That means my next shooting unit can target the lighted unit at max range (missiles at 48" lets say). It also means in your shooting phase you have no range limitations should you decide to shoot the unit who used the light (your HWS also at 48"). For all other units on the board, all 3 effects of NF remain.

So you're going to ignore actual rules and make up your own?
That's not a great way to win an argument. The actual rules on page 124 show that the shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away.
See?

p124 wrote:The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away

Your assertion is that removing the Night Fighting rule for the target unit also removes it for the shooting unit. You have yet to show evidence of that however.

rigeld2 wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
Um...wrong. The 36" range limit is removed from the unit lighted and the unit doing the lighting. No where were we talking about "every unit on the table."
But I appreciate you trying to cloud the issue.

The unit doing the lighting isn't firing.
The unit being targeted isn't firing.
The 36" range is a restriction applied to the firing unit, explicitly not the target unit.
This is a fact that you continuously ignore, to the detriment of your argument.
The 36" range does not apply to the targeted unit. It cannot ever as you are forbidden from targeting beyond that distance.

What you are ignoring is the wording says you lose the BENEFIT...singular...of the NF Rule. Not benefits. Not restrictions (again, 2 words that do not appear in the NF rule).
And the wording in the NF rule is not "targeting." It says you may not PICK a unit beyond 36". Once a Search Light negates the BENEFIT of the NF rule (again, the entire rule) that caveat is also negated...for that one unit (and the one using the light).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
***So you're going to ignore actual rules and make up your own?***
Actually it is you making up rules. By changing the word BENEFIT into a plural you are changing the core intention of the rule. From negating an entire rule to negating just parts of it.
You then arbitrarily decide which of the 3 effects of NF are to become a "Benefit" to be ignored and which is to become a "restriction" to still apply.
Making up another rule by adding the words "Benefit(s)" and "restrictions" into a rule where they do not exist.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
***Your assertion is that removing the Night Fighting rule for the target unit also removes it for the shooting unit. You have yet to show evidence of that however.***
You have yet to show evidence that the NF Rule is divided between Restrictions and Benefits. You have merely taken key sentences of a paragraph that is describing the total effects of the rule and tried to break them out into different categories that do not exist in the rule.

dkellyj wrote:
What you are ignoring is the wording says you lose the BENEFIT...singular...of the NF Rule. Not benefits. Not restrictions (again, 2 words that do not appear in the NF rule).

Actually, I'm not ignoring that. It's irrelevant to my argument. Do try and keep up.

And the wording in the NF rule is not "targeting." It says you may not PICK a unit beyond 36". Once a Search Light negates the BENEFIT of the NF rule (again, the entire rule) that caveat is also negated...for that one unit (and the one using the light).

Yes, when the illuminated unit shoots it ignores the 36" range restriction. Also, you might want to look up the targeting rules - picking a target is targeting. In addition, capitalizing your words is Internet speak for yelling. I'm sure you're not trying to be rude so I'll politely ask you to stop yelling. Thanks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
***So you're going to ignore actual rules and make up your own?***
Actually it is you making up rules. By changing the word BENEFIT into a plural you are changing the core intention of the rule. From negating an entire rule to negating just parts of it.
You then arbitrarily decide which of the 3 effects of NF are to become a "Benefit" to be ignored and which is to become a "restriction" to still apply.
Making up another rule by adding the words "Benefit(s)" and "restrictions" into a rule where they do not exist.

Excuse me? Please cite in my recent posts where I've used that argument. You'll find I haven't.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
***Your assertion is that removing the Night Fighting rule for the target unit also removes it for the shooting unit. You have yet to show evidence of that however.***
You have yet to show evidence that the NF Rule is divided between Restrictions and Benefits. You have merely taken key sentences of a paragraph that is describing the total effects of the rule and tried to break them out into different categories that do not exist in the rule.

No, I'm not. Again - do try and keep up.

I've asserted that the rules show that the shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away. I hope you agree.
I've accepted your statement (for the sake of argument) that the searchlight completely removes the Night Fighting rule from the target.
You've asserted that removing the Night Fight rule from the target also lifts the restriction on the shooting unit. I use the word restriction not because that's how the rules term it, but because there's no other word for it. Call it a limitation, a maximum range - whatever. Hell, call it a benefit for all that it matters.
My point is that the searchlight has literally zero effect on a unit that is not the searchlighter or searchlightee.

dkellyj 566792 6335251 nullI wrote:t says you may not PICK a unit beyond 36". Once a Search Light negates the BENEFIT of the NF rule (again, the entire rule) that caveat is also negated

This does the exact opposite of what you are trying to make it do.


If a unit bound by Nightfight can not pick a target more than 36" away, and a rule removes the NF rule from that unit, then that unit can now pick a target more than 36" away. But anyone else who is still bound by the NF rule shooting at that unit will still be bound by the 36" restriction... because that restriction is placed on the shooter, not the target.

Your argument removes NF from the illuminated unit. It doesn't remove it from everyone else. So everyone else can still only fire up to 36".

***Yes, when the illuminated unit shoots it ignores the 36" range restriction.***
Wrong. An illuminated unit may still not shoot beyond 36"...unless it is specifically shooting a unit that used a Search Light (that unit having lost the NF Rule).
As the word implies (illuminated) you are no longer in the cover of night. You are exposed for the entire board to see.

***Excuse me? Please cite in my recent posts where I've used that argument. You'll find I haven't.***
6 DEC 09:44:42
Because it's a restriction on the firing unit, not a benefit that the targeted unit receives.
6 DEC 12:30:11
It's explicitly a restriction on the shooting unit. It's almost like there's a difference between benefits and restrictions and targeting unit and targeted unit...

Peregrine is the one creating a plural, but your the one creating separate categories (benefits and restrictions) based on that plurality.

***My point is that the searchlight has literally zero effect on a unit that is not the searchlighter or searchlightee.***
Your point is wrong.
Once a unit has been illuminated any subsequent firing units in that turn may now target that specific unit with no restrictions (hence why you illuminate with Transports then shoot the lightee with your Heavies at range). Cover bonuses from NF are also negated (which we agree on).
If the searchlight effects were to only apply to the specific unit using it, then it is a pointless rule since the order of operations specify you must shoot weapons first (with the 36" rule in effect) and then you can illuminate the target unit. Your unit may not use its searchlight to negate NF for its own guns.
Once my turn is over (assuming I went 1st) then in your NF turn my units that used a light have now lost the benefit of the NF rule. You may shoot them with impunity.
By your definition, the only unit without restriction to shoot my unit that used the light would be the one that was lit up.

The last 2 sentences of the Search Light rule:
Illumination lasts until the end of the following turn.
Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting special rule.

The 1st sentence is why you may shoot at my units that used lights. Using the light illuminates my own unit and the effect lasts through your turn.
That last sentence is the key. Gain no benefit. Not benefits. Nor are any specific sections of the rule called out (gain no benefit 'of cover provided by'). GW is talking about the rule in its entirety.

dkellyj wrote:
***Yes, when the illuminated unit shoots it ignores the 36" range restriction.***
Wrong. An illuminated unit may still not shoot beyond 36"...unless it is specifically shooting a unit that used a Search Light (that unit having lost the NF Rule).
As the word implies (illuminated) you are no longer in the cover of night. You are exposed for the entire board to see.

Using fluff in your argument? Or do you turn off the light during night fighting?

***Excuse me? Please cite in my recent posts where I've used that argument. You'll find I haven't.***
6 DEC 09:44:42
Because it's a restriction on the firing unit, not a benefit that the targeted unit receives.
6 DEC 12:30:11
It's explicitly a restriction on the shooting unit. It's almost like there's a difference between benefits and restrictions and targeting unit and targeted unit...

Peregrine is the one creating a plural, but your the one creating separate categories (benefits and restrictions) based on that plurality.

A). Is the quote function eluding you?
B). My argument has nothing to do with any plurality or anything else. 6 DEC is 5 days ago. I asked for recent.
C). I have to use some word to describe the 36" range. What would you prefer it to be?

***My point is that the searchlight has literally zero effect on a unit that is not the searchlighter or searchlightee.***
Your point is wrong.

Quote a rule. For once. I'm begging you to.

Once a unit has been illuminated any subsequent firing units in that turn may now target that specific unit with no restrictions (hence why you illuminate with Transports then shoot the lightee with your Heavies at range). Cover bonuses from NF are also negated (which we agree on).

Assertions should also come with rules citations. I'm sure you just forgot.

If the searchlight effects were to only apply to the specific unit using it, then it is a pointless rule since the order of operations specify you must shoot weapons first (with the 36" rule in effect) and then you can illuminate the target unit. Your unit may not use its searchlight to negate NF for its own guns.

Way to completely fail at understanding what I said. Well done, really.

Once my turn is over (assuming I went 1st) then in your NF turn my units that used a light have now lost the benefit of the NF rule. You may shoot them with impunity.
By your definition, the only unit without restriction to shoot my unit that used the light would be the one that was lit up.

Nope. That's not what I said at all.

The last 2 sentences of the Search Light rule:
Illumination lasts until the end of the following turn.
Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting special rule.

The 1st sentence is why you may shoot at my units that used lights. Using the light illuminates my own unit and the effect lasts through your turn.
That last sentence is the key. Gain no benefit. Not benefits. Nor are any specific sections of the rule called out (gain no benefit 'of cover provided by'). GW is talking about the rule in its entirety.

And I've addressed that. And you keep arguing against a point I'm not even making. Slow down, read my posts and stop fething assuming you know what I'm saying - if you don't understand, ask for clarification.

 insaniak wrote:

dkellyj 566792 6335251 nullI wrote:t says you may not PICK a unit beyond 36". Once a Search Light negates the BENEFIT of the NF rule (again, the entire rule) that caveat is also negated

This does the exact opposite of what you are trying to make it do.


If a unit bound by Nightfight can not pick a target more than 36" away, and a rule removes the NF rule from that unit, then that unit can now pick a target more than 36" away. But anyone else who is still bound by the NF rule shooting at that unit will still be bound by the 36" restriction... because that restriction is placed on the shooter, not the target.

Your argument removes NF from the illuminated unit. It doesn't remove it from everyone else. So everyone else can still only fire up to 36".

Illumination (getting spot lighted) removes the effects of NF. The 3 effects of Night Fight are GWs method of approximating the darkness of a moonless night. They are not separate entities, but a cumulative effect. The inability to see a distant object and the inability to focus on something in the dark and accurately identify what it is and exactly where it is until you get closer. Once you have illuminated a unit, everyone else on the battlefield can now see that unit and react to it.
Like your cockroaches in the kitchen. From the dining room you don't know they are their. Once you walk into the kitchen, you may notice spots on the wall, but are not sure what they are. You move closer and you can now make out individual spots moving slowly. However, shine a flashlight on those spots and suddenly your wife (still in the dining room and unable to see the bugs) can now see them scatter from the illumination of your flash (search) light. She may now shoot those bugs with harsh language and bug spray.
The roaches have lost the benefit of the dark due to your light. Of course they also see your light so they now scatter away from you since you too have lost the benefit of the dark.
Ever walk outside on a dark night and walk through a spiderweb? That's Night Fight. Turn on your porchlight and everyone now sees the spider. That's the searchlight.

dkellyj wrote:
Wrong. An illuminated unit may still not shoot beyond 36"...unless it is specifically shooting a unit that used a Search Light (that unit having lost the NF Rule).

Again, the NF rule restricts the shooter from firing more than 36". It does not restrict the target from being targetted from more than 36" away.

So if the NF rule is removed from a unit, and so that unit is no longer subject to the NF rule, why can it not target units more than 36" away?

Once a unit has been illuminated any subsequent firing units in that turn may now target that specific unit with no restrictions

Why?

Being illuminated removes the benefit of NF from the target. It does not remove restrictions from anyone else.

If the searchlight effects were to only apply to the specific unit using it,...

Nobody is saying this.

Being illuminated applies to all subsequent shooting. The point is simply that this only removes the cover bonus, because the cover bonus is a benefit that is applied to the target unit by the NF rule. The range restriction is not something that is applied to the target unit. It is applied to any unit trying to shoot while NF is in effect. So a rule that specifically removes the benefit of NF from the target unit can have no effect on the range restriction, because it doesn't address it.

The benefit is removed from the target. The range restriction is not removed from everyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dkellyj wrote:
Illumination (getting spot lighted) removes the effects of NF. The 3 effects of Night Fight are GWs method of approximating the darkness of a moonless night. They are not separate entities, but a cumulative effect. The inability to see a distant object and the inability to focus on something in the dark and accurately identify what it is and exactly where it is until you get closer. Once you have illuminated a unit, everyone else on the battlefield can now see that unit and react to it.
Like your cockroaches in the kitchen. From the dining room you don't know they are their. Once you walk into the kitchen, you may notice spots on the wall, but are not sure what they are. You move closer and you can now make out individual spots moving slowly. However, shine a flashlight on those spots and suddenly your wife (still in the dining room and unable to see the bugs) can now see them scatter from the illumination of your flash (search) light. She may now shoot those bugs with harsh language and bug spray.
The roaches have lost the benefit of the dark due to your light. Of course they also see your light so they now scatter away from you since you too have lost the benefit of the dark.
Ever walk outside on a dark night and walk through a spiderweb? That's Night Fight. Turn on your porchlight and everyone now sees the spider. That's the searchlight.

Yes, I understand how a searchlight works fluffwise.

That has no impact on what the rules do.

Ok Rigel; here's what I think you are saying:
The Night Fight Rule confers 1 restriction to all units in the shooting phase; a 36" range limitation.
It also confers 1 of 2 benefits to any targeted unit, a cover save based on specific range.
If that unit is illuminated by a search light, the unit lit of (and the unit using the light) lose the cover save. However, the 36" range restriction is still in effect for all other units on the board. This restriction also applies to your units even if they are shooting the unit that used the search light.

My contention is that you are correct on the first part...cover save improvements based on range are lost.
However, I also contend that since all 3 effects (range and cover) are being used together to approximate the effect of the dark, that once a unit is illuminated they lose the entire effect of Night Fight from that instant.
They lose the benefit of the rule. Not just parts of it, but all parts of it that are creating the approximation.
While the method of that approximation has changed from 5th ed (2d6x3 range rolled for each unit; no cover saves granted) the rules for searchlights, beyond grammar, has not.
From the current IG and GK Codeci: "For the rest of the shooting phase, any unit that fires at the illuminated unit does not use the Night Fighting rule."
Grammatically, that is the same as "lose the benefit of the rule."

dkellyj wrote:
The 3 effects of Night Fight are GWs method of approximating the darkness of a moonless night.

Except we're dealing with rules, not fluff. If you want to go by the fluff then my tank with a searchlight should be able to use its searchlight before shooting the target, not fire blindly into the darkness and then finally get around to turning the searchlight on. That's the whole point of having a searchlight after all. But even though the rules don't follow the fluff that's what we have to play by.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dkellyj wrote:
From the current IG and GK Codeci: "For the rest of the shooting phase, any unit that fires at the illuminated unit does not use the Night Fighting rule."

That rule is no longer relevant as it has been replaced by the core rulebook rules for searchlights.

Grammatically, that is the same as "lose the benefit of the rule."

No, it absolutely is NOT the same. Please stop changing the rule and then arguing based on your new rule.

***Except we're dealing with rules, not fluff.***
And English. When you lose the benefit of something, it is saying you lose everything about it. Not just bits and pieces.
The benefit of the NF rule is using everything in the rule to keep from getting shot to bits. Losing the benefit of the rule means you lose every aspect of the rule.
Benefit of the rule vs benefits in the rule.

***That rule is no longer relevant as it has been replaced by the core rulebook rules for searchlights.***
Ummm...Codex trumps BRB. So if you care to get picky, until an FAQ or a new Codex is produced the Codex rule applies.
Regardless, its 2 different ways of saying the same thing. "Lose the benefit of" vs "no longer in effect."

***No, it absolutely is NOT the same***
Ok then. What is your definition of "lose the benefit of the rule"?
Not lose the benefits contained therein or lose the beneficial parts of the rule...but "lose the benefit of the rule."

I see it like this:
Lose: No longer applies. Do not use.
Benefit: Singular. We are discussing a single item.
the Rule: The rule in its entirety. All sets and subsets of a specific group.

dkellyj wrote:
When you lose the benefit of something, it is saying you lose everything about it. Not just bits and pieces.

No you don't. Losing the benefit of something means losing the benefit, not losing everything vaguely related to that benefit.

The benefit of the NF rule is using everything in the rule to keep from getting shot to bits.

That's not what the rule says. Please stop inventing your own rules.

Ummm...Codex trumps BRB.

There is no such rule.

Also, it has been FAQed. From the IG codex FAQ:

Page 60 – Dozer Blades; Hunter-killer Missile; Searchlight;
Smoke Launchers.
Use the entries in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Regardless, its 2 different ways of saying the same thing. "Lose the benefit of" vs "no longer in effect."

It is not at all the same. If you lose the benefit of something you can still suffer the penalties of that thing, and you still have that thing if someone asks "do you have X" (even if you can't use its benefits). If something is no longer in effect EVERYTHING about it is gone.

***There is no such rule.***
Really? Codex trumping BRB is not a rule?
BRB pg 7: On rare occasions a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedent.

FAQed...OK. still does not change my argument based on the written language being used.

***If you lose the benefit of something you can still suffer the penalties of that thing***
which brings us full circle that the Night Fighting Rule does not list benefits or penalties (restrictions). Only a set of effects the rule causes. Limited range and cover due to darkness. Remove the darkness (illumination) and you remove the effects.
But if you want to use words not in the rule; benefits and penalties (restrictions), something that limits your opponents firing range is a benefit...just ask anyone who buys a Shadow Field upgrade.

dkellyj wrote:
FAQed...OK. still does not change my argument based on the written language being used.

What argument? That an old version of the searchlight rules might have done something differently? Do you want to also insist that you roll spotting distance like you did in 5th edition?

which brings us full circle that the Night Fighting Rule does not list benefits or penalties (restrictions). Only a set of effects the rule causes. Limited range and cover due to darkness.

Yes, because GW assumes that you understand simple English sentences and can figure out what a benefit is. If you have that minimal level of reading comprehension then it's obvious that the range limit is a penalty and the range-dependent cover save is a benefit.

Remove the darkness (illumination) and you remove the effects.

That is fluff, and fluff is not rules. The searchlight removes only the specific effects of night fighting that it says it removes.

But if you want to use words not in the rule; benefits and penalties (restrictions), something that limits your opponents firing range is a benefit...just ask anyone who buys a Shadow Field upgrade.

No it isn't. You're using an inappropriately broad definition of benefit here. Benefit refers to the specific thing applied to the model, not a general state of "I'm happy with this thing".

Dkelly - so simple scenario to help you understand your error

Unit A fires at enemy unit X, using a search light. Say this unit X now has the whole of the NF rule removed from it - your contentiuon.

Unit B now wants to fire at unit X. Unit B still has the NF rule applied to it - we know this is true. One of the requirements is that Unit B cannot target a unit more than 36" away. So, this restriction is on the unit FIRING, not the unit TARGETTED - we know this to be true.

So if unit B is still over 36", removing the entire NF rule from unit X has no effect on UInit B still having the NF rule, and stil being restricted on picking a target

You are stating "cannot pick a target over 36"" is equivalent to "cannot be picked as a target if I am over 36"" - this is wrong. 100% so. One controls the firing unit - the actual, real rule - and one controls the fired-at unit.

You are, simply, wrong. The reasons for this have been shown. Even if your inital, false, contention were true, it has no effect on the outcome, as the NF rule is still in effect on the next unit to fire at the fired upon unit.

Your looking at it backwards.
Unit A illuminates unit X
Unit X loses the benefit of the NF rule (not the same as the benefits granted or in the rule...but the rule itself. Singular.
Unit B can now choose to either shoot at unit Y who still has the NF rule, or unit X who no longer has the rule (illuminated).
It is the semantic difference between losing the benefit of applying a rule in the first place, and losing the implied benefits contained within a small part of that rule.
Search Light says you lose the benefit OF the rule. Not the benefits IN the rule.

Regardless, this topic has come up before. And your point of view is the minority:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/507914.page

Here's hoping for an FAQ.
And for what its worth, the range argument is pretty irrelevant to me...my Army is designed inside of a 36" bubble. Rarely have I ever had to deal with NF range restrictions and have never held my opponent to them should he lite me up.

dkellyj wrote:
Unit X loses the benefit of the NF rule (not the same as the benefits granted or in the rule...but the rule itself. Singular.

Yes. Benefit, singular. The range-dependent cover bonus is the single benefit that is removed. Please stop inventing your own rules to argue with.

Unit B can now choose to either shoot at unit Y who still has the NF rule, or unit X who no longer has the rule (illuminated).

Yes, and regardless of which unit it chooses to shoot at unit B will still have to obey the "no picking a target more than 36" away" rule because the searchlight has done absolutely nothing to night fighting effects on unit B.

Search Light says you lose the benefit OF the rule. Not the benefits IN the rule.

And that makes no difference. The benefit of night fighting on a single unit is the range-dependent cover bonus.

Regardless, this topic has come up before. And your point of view is the minority:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/507914.page

That just means that 82% of the people who voted either can't read very well or are answering according to how they would play it, not what RAW says.

dkellyj wrote:
Your looking at it backwards.
Unit A illuminates unit X
Unit X loses the benefit of the NF rule (not the same as the benefits granted or in the rule...but the rule itself. Singular.
Unit B can now choose to either shoot at unit Y who still has the NF rule, or unit X who no longer has the rule (illuminated).
It is the semantic difference between losing the benefit of applying a rule in the first place, and losing the implied benefits contained within a small part of that rule.
Search Light says you lose the benefit OF the rule. Not the benefits IN the rule.

Regardless, this topic has come up before. And your point of view is the minority:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/507914.page

Here's hoping for an FAQ.
And for what its worth, the range argument is pretty irrelevant to me...my Army is designed inside of a 36" bubble. Rarely have I ever had to deal with NF range restrictions and have never held my opponent to them should he lite me up.

Irrelevant to you or not has no bearing on the discussion, it is a rule and should be followed as written unless house ruled. The discussion is about (afaik) the rule as it is written.

In your example above, why did you give permission for unit B to shoot at unit X outside of the 36" Night Fighting range restriction? Unit B is clearly still under the NF rule and must follow said rule, which includes (and I quote) "The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36 inches away" (BRB pg 124).

The shooting unit (in your example, unit B), which is still under the effects of the night fight rule, cannot pick a target more than 36" away. Period. It does not matter if the target unit has been illuminated. The rule calls out the shooting unit specifically.

your al still ignoring the fact the range restriction is put in place by the unit being in darkness, of which being illuminated is the exact opposite of being in the darkness...

 nutty_nutter wrote:
your al still ignoring the fact the range restriction is put in place by the unit being in darkness, of which being illuminated is the exact opposite of being in the darkness...

Nothing is being ignored in regards to range. The range limit (on the shooting unit) is in place based on the Night Fighting rule. Illuminated explicitly removes the benefit of Night Fighting from the illuminated unit (and the unit that used searchlights). Any other unit on the table is still 100% under the effects of the Night Fighting rule.

Being in darkness is pure fluff

 nutty_nutter wrote:
your al still ignoring the fact the range restriction is put in place by the unit being in darkness, of which being illuminated is the exact opposite of being in the darkness...

That is fluff, and fluff is not rules. It doesn't matter if the fluff is about being in darkness, all that matters is that a searchlight removes effect A from unit X, but not effect B from unit Y.

And, again, if you want to argue about fluff my tank should be able to searchlight something before shooting. But I can't, because the rules don't perfectly follow the fluff. So don't argue based on fluff.