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 Steel-W0LF wrote:
You are not barred from using abilities after deepstriking. You are barred from using an ability that occures before the movement phase.

This is wrong.
Before the movement phase? There's nothing before the movement phase apart from your opponents assault phase. I suggest you review the rule in question. The rule is for special rules and abilities used at the start of the turn. That's still the movement phase.

So if your interpretation is that choosing which ability you have is the same as using it. Thats fine, but thats a HIWPI argument.

It's granting a rule. Doesn't need to be used, it's still being granted. That's very much an ability. Try and call it something else, but that's what it very clearly is.

You are told to pick a rule...not use it.
Picking is not disallowed after deepstriking.

Irrelevant, the wargear grants the ability to pick.

And the weakest support but a good indicator: another army with the same rule worded the same way was FAQ'd clarrifying that yes it could use it the turn it arrives. Precedent is not good as the sole reason, but it is decent icing on the cake.

It's a poor precedent. There are many other things with the same wording that are not FAQ'd to allow it. That a Special Character is allowed simply shows that they are just that. Special. The exception, rather than the rule. Something true of nearly every Special Character. Should all models be allowed to assault after deep strike because Zagstrukk can?

 grendel083 wrote:
This is wrong.
Before the movement phase? There's nothing before the movement phase apart from your opponents assault phase. I suggest you review the rule in question. The rule is for special rules and abilities used at the start of the turn. That's still the movement phase.

Are "beginning of your turn" and "start of the movement phase" equal?

Doesn't need to be used, it's still being granted. That's very much an ability. Try and call it something else, but that's what it very clearly is.

Page number please of this definition.......

Irrelevant, the wargear grants the ability to pick.

and nothing denies that permission.

The exception, rather than the rule. Something true of nearly every Special Character. Should all models be allowed to assault after deep strike because Zagstrukk can?

I agree it is weak support, and said as much. Your example is laughable though, "all models" don't all have rules worded exactly like Zagstrukk's. IF "all models" had the exact same rule as Zagstrikk, would you be arguing that only he could do it because he is special?

Yes.

Pg 32 BRB and Pg 73 Tau codex.

Pg 125 BRB denies permission since the PEN has to be used that the start of the turn.

Steel - so an ability / special rule isn't allowing you to choose a rule?
Because the rules disagree

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Steel - so an ability / special rule isn't allowing you to choose a rule?
Because the rules disagree

Is a stealth suit an ability?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
Yes.

Pg 32 BRB and Pg 73 Tau codex.

Does not refer to anything as an ability....

Fragile wrote:
Pg 125 BRB denies permission since the PEN has to be used that the start of the turn.

Incorrect.

You are prevented from using a special rule at the start of the movement phase, not choosing one. What special rule listed in the BRB special rules section is being used at the start of the movement phase?



And for further consideration: The PEN requires no target, and no dice roll.... since that choice and Deepstrike occurs simultaneously, i dont see anything preventing you from choosing the rule before deepstriking and bypassing the poorly worded, irrelevant restriction altogether.

If it is not a special ability then anyone can do the same and pick from those abilities. However, this is not the case. Your entire claim is wargear does not give abilities, which is wrong under page 32.

Steel - so my chaos can choose tank hunter then? As according to you that doesn't require any special rule or ability to do so.

Awesome, havocs just got better!

Or, under actual rules, you are using an ability - the ability yo choose a special rule - that you must do at the start of the turn. The actual rules, not those you pretend don't apply, state you cannot do this the turn you arrive from reserves

Quote BRB: "Whenever a creature or weapon has an ability that breaks or bends one of the main game rules, it is represented by a special rule. A special rule might improve a model's chances of causing damage by granting it poisoned weapons or a boost to its Strength. Conversely, a special rule may improve a model's survivability by granting it resistance to pain, or the ability to regrow damaged flesh. Special rules allow snipers to target the weak spots of their foes, scouts to range ahead of the army and anti-aircraft guns to blow flyers out of the skies."

So you're telling me that when a unit deep strikes, it loses all its special rules for the remainder of that turn? I.e. Tyranids do not have adrenaline glands, dreadnoughts do not have S10 DCCWs, Shrike loses ATSKNF etc?

No, why are you putting words in our mouths?

Is a dreadnoughts DCCW a special rule that has to be used at the start of the turn? No.

Its almost like words mean things.

 Sir Arun wrote:
So you're telling me that when a unit deep strikes, it loses all its special rules for the remainder of that turn? I.e. Tyranids do not have adrenaline glands, dreadnoughts do not have S10 DCCWs, Shrike loses ATSKNF etc?

Do Adrenal Glands, DCCWs, or ATSKNF have to be used at the beginning of the turn?
No?
So why bring them up? It's almost like you knew the answer but wanted to say something that made your position look solid, even though it has no basis in fact.

The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

Wargear doesn't grant abilities?

rigeld2 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

Wargear doesn't grant abilities?

No, wargear is wargear, and special rules are special rules, they are not the same in any way.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

Wargear doesn't grant abilities?

No, wargear is wargear, and special rules are special rules, they are not the same in any way.

Wargear can grant special rules. And if those rules were used at the time conflicting with deepstrike, then they would not work.

But the rules the PEN grants do not occure in the movement phase.


Most things that you don't need to roll for or require a target can happen while in reserves. No one has answered why the PEN model could not declare it before he deepstruck and avoid the restriction entirely.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

Wargear doesn't grant abilities?

No, wargear is wargear, and special rules are special rules, they are not the same in any way.

Ork Painboy carries a peace of wargear called "Doc's Tools".
It grants the special rule Feel no Pain.
I'm sorry but your proposal is nonsense.
According to you it doesn't grant a special rule (despite clearly doing so).
PEN grants to ability to pick a special rule. At the start of the turn. Something the rules don't allow.


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 Steel-W0LF wrote:
But the rules the PEN grants do not occure in the movement phase.

Irrelevent. The rule is still picked during the Movement phase, at the start of the turn.

 grendel083 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

Wargear doesn't grant abilities?

No, wargear is wargear, and special rules are special rules, they are not the same in any way.

Ork Painboy carries a peace of wargear called "Doc's Tools".
It grants the special rule Feel no Pain.
I'm sorry but your proposal is nonsense.
According to you it doesn't grant a special rule (despite clearly doing so).
PEN grants to ability to pick a special rule. At the start of the turn. Something the rules don't allow.


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 Steel-W0LF wrote:
But the rules the PEN grants do not occure in the movement phase.

Irrelevent. The rule is still picked during the Movement phase, at the start of the turn.

You are right, wargear does grant special rules. Nothing in the deepstrike rules prevents a rule from being granted. It prevents a rule from being used. The rules granted don't get used till later.

What prevents you from being granted a rule when you deepstrike in? Your argument hinges on the idea that because you had to make a choice then it must be disallowed by the deepstrike.

And why is everyone avoiding the question as to what prevents the PEN from being used before the deepstrike? Things that happen at the same time the player gets to choose the order.
So you choose your rule with the PEN, then deepstrike after.

This has nothing to do with Deepstrike, your simply evading the issue.

The PEN has to be used at the start of the turn. You cannot use abilities that have to be used at the start of the turn, when you arrive from Reserves. Period.

Steel = so youre not using any ability then?

Absolutely none?

Sure of that?

 grendel083 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
The problem is that PEN is NOT AN ABILITY, it is wargear.

Wargear doesn't grant abilities?

No, wargear is wargear, and special rules are special rules, they are not the same in any way.

Ork Painboy carries a peace of wargear called "Doc's Tools".
It grants the special rule Feel no Pain.
I'm sorry but your proposal is nonsense.
According to you it doesn't grant a special rule (despite clearly doing so).
PEN grants to ability to pick a special rule. At the start of the turn. Something the rules don't allow.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
But the rules the PEN grants do not occure in the movement phase.

Irrelevent. The rule is still picked during the Movement phase, at the start of the turn.

What I am saying is that wargear can grant a special rule or ability, but it is not a special rule or ability. You can get things like FNP from a piece of wargear, but that wargear is still wargear and not an ability.

I would allow it. Logan's FAQs deal with the same thing, Choosing an special rule at the start of the turn, which is not USED by the UNIT until later in the turn. The unit (or any of its models) are not using a special rule, ability, power or other at the start of the turn. Should not fall under this restriction RAW wise, and Logan's FAQ is a good example. - Not particularly for any ability etc, but for specifically this type which is a bit iffy RAI wise.

The fact you can't use anything at the start of the turn is a misconception, the models or unit can not use abilities etc. PEC requires nothing of the unit, this is how it, and Logan's rule differs from most.

The unit is bestowed a special rule from wargear via player choice. I think the action being on the player being the crunch. The unit isn't using anything - until the point they use the granted special rule.

RAW wise I'd like to see how this is an action by the unit or one of its models- if not RAW it can be used.

Ability is not a well defined term at any rate.

Fragile wrote:
The PEN has to be used at the start of the turn.

Please define "used". Is a stealth suit used, or a thunder hammer, or a almost any piece of war gear? Or is it just there conferring what it confers when required to?

You cannot use abilities that have to be used at the start of the turn, when you arrive from Reserves. Period.

Saying "period" does not win any points as you cant prove that choosing a special rule is = to using an ability. *opinion*
AND you could simply choose that it happens before coming on the board.

Used: You have to pick which of the abilities the PEN will give. Therefore you cannot use it the turn you come in from reserves. You again try to hide behind nuances.

Fragile wrote:
Used: You have to pick which of the abilities the PEN will give. Therefore you cannot use it the turn you come in from reserves. You again try to hide behind nuances.

/your opinion

Support that with a page number saying that first the PEN is "used" because you have to make a choice.
And second that because it is used, it is considered an ability.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
Used: You have to pick which of the abilities the PEN will give. Therefore you cannot use it the turn you come in from reserves. You again try to hide behind nuances.

Also, by this interpretation, Jump infantry can only walk on the board 6" as they are not allowed to use their jump packs.

Steel - so you arent using anything? Your choice of ability isnt somethign you "do", it just occurs, from thin air?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

You cannot use abilities that have to be used at the start of the turn, when you arrive from Reserves. Period.

Saying "period" does not win any points as you cant prove that choosing a special rule is = to using an ability. *opinion*
AND you could simply choose that it happens before coming on the board.

Let me get this straight. Your argument is that the ability to chose a special rule at the start of your turn is not an ability that is used at the start of your turn? Correct?

What else is it then?

Fragile wrote:


Also, by this interpretation, Jump infantry can only walk on the board 6" as they are not allowed to use their jump packs.

Please elaborate why you think that would be the case.

 Mywik wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

You cannot use abilities that have to be used at the start of the turn, when you arrive from Reserves. Period.

Saying "period" does not win any points as you cant prove that choosing a special rule is = to using an ability. *opinion*
AND you could simply choose that it happens before coming on the board.

Let me get this straight. Your argument is that the ability to chose a special rule at the start of your turn is not an ability that is used at the start of your turn? Correct?

What else is it then?

Can jump infantry move on the board 12" or not. Because in the movenent phase you have the "ability" to use the jump pack or not. So that means its not alowed to move 12" if you walk them on tge board, right? After all the ability to choise something is disallowed after comming on from reserves.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Can jump infantry move on the board 12" or not. Because in the movenent phase you have tge "ability" to use the jump pack or not. So that means its not alowed to move 12" if you walk tgem on tge board, right?

Does jump infantry specify that the ability to use them or not is used at the start of your turn? Yes or no.

 Mywik wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Can jump infantry move on the board 12" or not. Because in the movenent phase you have tge "ability" to use the jump pack or not. So that means its not alowed to move 12" if you walk tgem on tge board, right?

Does jump infantry specify that the ability to use them or not is used at the start of your turn? Yes or no.

Can you move them after tge movenent phase?
And like mentioned before: there is no requirement with the PENfor it to even be on the board. Since it and comming on from reserves hapoen at the same time, just select your rule before reserves because you can, then bring the model on.

Yeah in 6th edition there is no hard and fast rule saying Jump infantry move 12" during the movement phase. Instead, you are given the CHOICE at the start of your movement phase to either decide for a 12" more, or a 6" move and HoW attack during charge for that turn.

When Jump units deep strike, they can't move or charge anyways though, so the jump pack wargear is not used for that turn.

Even if they could, the keyword here is "use". And they are using their piece of wargear (jump pack), not using a special rule or using an ability (which they cannot do the turn they deep strike, as per BRB p.125). Similarly, the PEN is a piece of wargear that is used and there is no restriction for this.

"Using" the jump pack (wargear) to get the extra move distance is also an "ability" or "special rule", but it only kicks in when you use a piece of wargear. You arent using an ability or special rule, you are using a piece of wargear to get an ability or, in the case of the PEN, a USR.

 Steel-W0LF wrote:

 Mywik wrote:

 Steel-W0LF wrote:


Can jump infantry move on the board 12" or not. Because in the movenent phase you have tge "ability" to use the jump pack or not. So that means its not alowed to move 12" if you walk tgem on tge board, right?

Does jump infantry specify that the ability to use them or not is used at the start of your turn? Yes or no.

Can you move them after tge movenent phase?
And like mentioned before: there is no requirement with the PENfor it to even be on the board. Since it and comming on from reserves hapoen at the same time, just select your rule before reserves because you can, then bring the model on.

Why are you answering my question with a question. I am not at my books atm. Does Jump infantry specify that the choice is done at the start of your turn?