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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Q. Blessingsare manifested ‘at the start of the Psyker’s Movement phase’ (there is your Bearer) – does this mean they happen simultaneously with Reserves rolls, (there is start of turn), Outflanking rolls(start of Turn) etc and if so which is solved first? (p68)

A: They do occur simultaneously – as such, the player whose turn it is decides in what order these things occur as per page 9 of the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook

Again, you are proven incorrect.
   
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Hoary Long Fang with Lascannon






 Steel-W0LF wrote:


There's a big difference between the model, who is the bearer, and the players entire armies movement phase.
One lets you move other models around before happening, and the other occurs before anything moves.


Could you please lead me to the part in the rules that defines a models movement phase?
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Fragile wrote:
 Steel-W0LF wrote:
I like the scrambling they are trying to do to say that "start of bearers movement phase" means start of player turn, and not the almost synonymous meaning of "before that model moves". It would be funny if a wasn't such a bad display of "I can't be wrong on the Internet".


Scrambling? The rules are clear on that the start of the movement phase is the start of the turn, you just ignore them and try to distract the issue.

of the bearers movement phase....

There's a big difference between the model, who is the bearer, and the players entire armies movement phase.
One lets you move other models around before happening, and the other occurs before anything moves.

You seem to be confused between a model's movement and a model's movement phase. You do understand they're two different things, right?

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Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Idaho

And still no disputation of just doing it before reserves.

Still no proof its an activated "ability".

Still no explanation of why another rule with the exact same wording is allowed and think this one is not other than "he's special"

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Decrepit Dakkanaut




So you put ICs in drop pods, in defiance of the nid FAQ? Until you can find a general allowance to use any such ability, you don't get to use an exceedingly specific q and a.

Some actual rules from you, as opposed to blind assertions, would be helpful any time soon
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Steel-W0LF wrote:
And still no disputation of just doing it before reserves.


There is no dispute over this. You can do it whenever you feel you think you should. However, It will have no effect, because you cannot use abilities that have to be done at the start of the turn, when you arrive from reserves.

Still no proof its an activated "ability".


Then how do you use the PEN if it is not "activated" ?
At the start of the bearer's Movement phase, choose one of the following special rules

This must mean that it always picks something if you do not, since its not an "activated" ability. What is the default SR that PEN uses since you dont "activate" it?


Remember this?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Wargear can grant special rules. And if those rules were used at the time conflicting with deepstrike, then they would not work.

But the rules the PEN grants do not occure in the movement phase.


Funny you keep changing your argument each time your proven wrong. PEN is required to be used at the start of turn, therefore cannot be used.

Still no explanation of why another rule with the exact same wording is allowed and think this one is not other than "he's special"


Because GW wanted it to work that way, just like Nid IC's cannot join units in transports. Until you have a FAQ saying you can use the PEN, then it will not work. GW has had the opportunity to do so, but chosen not to.

So whats your next failed argument?



   
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nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you put ICs in drop pods, in defiance of the nid FAQ? Until you can find a general allowance to use any such ability, you don't get to use an exceedingly specific q and a.

Some actual rules from you, as opposed to blind assertions, would be helpful any time soon


Except you can outflank Logan or walk him on and get around your silly nuisance. If Logan walks on the board, he doesn't need to worry about the nid FAQ, which applies to a MC being able to carry things, not a transport vehicle that is allowed to have IC's join up inside them. Using your logic you cannot attach IC's to any squad that will be embarking on a vehicle, which is not correct.
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





 Mulletdude wrote:
nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you put ICs in drop pods, in defiance of the nid FAQ? Until you can find a general allowance to use any such ability, you don't get to use an exceedingly specific q and a.

Some actual rules from you, as opposed to blind assertions, would be helpful any time soon


Except you can outflank Logan or walk him on and get around your silly nuisance. If Logan walks on the board, he doesn't need to worry about the nid FAQ, which applies to a MC being able to carry things, not a transport vehicle that is allowed to have IC's join up inside them. Using your logic you cannot attach IC's to any squad that will be embarking on a vehicle, which is not correct.

Actually, that's the logic of anyone who uses Logan's FAQ as a basis for their argument that's incorrect.
Nos is one of the people saying you can't use it.

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Made in us
Sneaky Lictor





Idaho

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you put ICs in drop pods, in defiance of the nid FAQ? Until you can find a general allowance to use any such ability, you don't get to use an exceedingly specific q and a.

Some actual rules from you, as opposed to blind assertions, would be helpful any time soon


#1: If the claim was being made that IC's in other armies could not go in drop pods, and there were not specific rules to the contrary, yes the Nid FAQ would lend support to that argument. But there are special rules in the drop pod armies that tell you otherwise. So unlike Logan, the rules are not worded the exact same as the drop pod rules specifically allow it while the nid rules do not. So its not comparable to Logans rule which is worded exactly the same as the PEN.



#2: Kinda like your blind assertation that the human player making a choice is the same as a model using an ability? Yup.....suuuuure.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fragile wrote:

There is no dispute over this. You can do it whenever you feel you think you should. However, It will have no effect, because you cannot use abilities that have to be done at the start of the turn, when you arrive from reserves.


You might be right on this one. I just checked and the reserve rules don't say anything about not using powers AFTER coming on the board, but says cant be used in the same turn. Its wonky logic as you could in theory use the PEN first because they happen at the same time, then come on from reserves and lose the PEN due to the Reserve rules, or be disallowed from entering play because you did use an ability that turn already. (if we assume the PEN is an ability)

Fragile wrote:
Then how do you use the PEN if it is not "activated" ?
At the start of the bearer's Movement phase, choose one of the following special rules

This must mean that it always picks something if you do not, since its not an "activated" ability. What is the default SR that PEN uses since you dont "activate" it?


Lots of passive things are lost if you dont remember them. Just because you forget to choose a rule does not mean it has to have a default or its an ability.

Fragile wrote:
Remember this?

 Steel-W0LF wrote:
Wargear can grant special rules. And if those rules were used at the time conflicting with deepstrike, then they would not work.

But the rules the PEN grants do not occure in the movement phase.


Funny you keep changing your argument each time your proven wrong. PEN is required to be used at the start of turn, therefore cannot be used.



Maybe because there are multiple people debating in this thread and comming at the issue from different angles?

No one has proven anything. In order to prove your case, you must prove that "player making a choice"="model using an ability". And that something that is not proven anywhere in the rule book.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/10 04:00:46


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SHE-FI-ELD

We've already been over how we don't like some FAQ's. Why bring up totally irrelevant FAQ's to prove how some don't fit with RAW, when there’s a very real reason why one which is being brought forward here, with explanation as to how it is different.

Unless YMDC now dismisses all FAQ entries because a few of the entries (I'm talking like, 1%) are changing the rules, and even then different people have different ideas on which FAQ entries may or may not have changed the rules, and much of that being down to how you interpreted the rule in the first place. If I bring up a FAQ on the subject then you will be up a totally irrelevant FAQ that somehow proves this FAQ is not valid. Even the Nid FAQ and drop pods are a bad example - Spore pods don't have the same rules as drop pods in the first place - they don't have a transport capacity or rules around the IC's and how many slots it would take up. Only certain units are allowed to use Spore's and then those units have different allowances for how many of each unit may be transported in it. How would I work out a unit of Hormagaunts with a Tyranid prime? Its impossible to do becuase the rules for Spore pods do not support other models being able to fit in it - The rules for drop pods do support this, RAW wise a Nid IC could never fit in a spore pod with another unit before the FAQ, however we know RAW for drop pods is different.

Do I believe that Logan’s High King FAQ changes the rules? – No. Because the restriction is there to stop deepstriking units immediately instagibbing the opponent, High King is not used by the unit, though the granted special rules are then used by the unit at different points in the turn. I think RAW in the rule book is written that the ‘unit’ used the rules for a reason – these sort of passive abilities where the unit does not do anything is outside the remit of the purpose of the rule, and so should not be subject to that restriction. The FAQ singled out this ability and it did so for a reason - because it is not under the restriction in the first place.

RAW is the unit cannot use an ability.
PEC – the unit is not using an ability

That’s it. There is a literal RAW & RAI argument with a backing FAQ.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2013/12/10 09:47:46


It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.

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 Steel-W0LF wrote:


No one has proven anything. In order to prove your case, you must prove that "player making a choice"="model using an ability". And that something that is not proven anywhere in the rule book.


Ah and what about proving that it is not an ability that must always be used at the start of the movement phase. So far you say "its not" and think you get away with it.

As the text of the PEN proves it is indeed used at the beginning of the turn. Please find something in the PEN rules that either states its not an ability or find something that clearly defines in general what an ability is or not. If you cant find such a thing then everything that is used at the start of the turn is an ability that falls under the rule. Since we have a general restriction you'd need a specific allowance to overwrite the rule. Not the other way around. A specific allowance Logan has (through faq) but PEN has not.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/10 09:27:22


 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Steel, go look up the definition of ability and you will find it. I know you asked for the definition of "used" already. You will find yet another of your arguments proven wrong.
   
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Decrepit Dakkanaut




Steel - there are no specific rules stating ICs may go inside drop pods. There are rules stating how ICs can start inside dedicated transports, but DTs in general - not specific to pods. So no, youre wrong on this. You can make a (bad) claim that as nid ICs do not get to ride in their DP analogue, noone does. It has as much support as claiming THK FAQ applies.

So there is no ability being granted by this wargear? I am not using an abiltiy (make this choice) when using the PEN? You are drawing this entirely unsupported disctinction between "abilty" and "choice" - being able to make a choice is an ability, and that is a fact.
   
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SHE-FI-ELD

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Steel - there are no specific rules stating ICs may go inside drop pods. There are rules stating how ICs can start inside dedicated transports, but DTs in general - not specific to pods. So no, youre wrong on this. You can make a (bad) claim that as nid ICs do not get to ride in their DP analogue, noone does. It has as much support as claiming THK FAQ applies.

So there is no ability being granted by this wargear? I am not using an abiltiy (make this choice) when using the PEN? You are drawing this entirely unsupported disctinction between "abilty" and "choice" - being able to make a choice is an ability, and that is a fact.


Even the Nid FAQ and drop pods are a bad example - Spore pods don't have the same rules as drop pods in the first place - they don't have a transport capacity or rules around the IC's and how many slots it would take up. Only certain units are allowed to use Spore's and then those units have different allowances for how many of each unit may be transported in it. How would I work out a unit of Hormagaunts with a Tyranid prime? Its impossible to do becuase the rules for Spore pods do not support other models being able to fit in it - The rules for drop pods do however support this, RAW wise a Nid IC could never fit in a spore pod with another unit before the FAQ, that is not the same for drop pods.

Just looking at the rules for Spods and Drods you can see why you can't for Spods, but can for Drods. No one is claiming just because Nid's can't others can't, were saying comparing how valid other FAQ's are across codex’s has nothing to do with this thread and this FAQ and these rules.

The WHY for Nids Pods is not the same WHY that allows IC's in Drop pods.
The WHY that allows High King is the same WHY that allows PEC. Because RAW wise there is no restriction on the player using an ability.

This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2013/12/10 12:27:02


It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.

Tactical objectives are fantastic 
   
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 Nem wrote:

The WHY for Nids Pods is not the same WHY that allows IC's in Drop pods.
The WHY that allows High King is the same WHY that allows PEC. Because RAW wise there is no restriction on the player using an ability.


Dont forget that C:SW is a 5th Edition Codex. The author probably wasnt aware that 6th edition will forbid the use of his ability. The Tau codex on the other hand was written with the knowledge that 6th has such a restriction.

So the intent behind the wording (and the fact there is a faq for Logan) may be completely different although they are similar.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/10 13:11:16


 
   
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It fazes me that 6th edition FAQs are surprisingly brief. In 5th ed we usually used to get several pages worth of FAQ. Since the Tau Errata is out, I doubt this will be officially covered in any near future.

I'll just stick to choosing a PEN power and *then* rolling for reserves unless someone can point out to me in the BRB that I cannot do that.

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SHE-FI-ELD

 Mywik wrote:
 Nem wrote:

The WHY for Nids Pods is not the same WHY that allows IC's in Drop pods.
The WHY that allows High King is the same WHY that allows PEC. Because RAW wise there is no restriction on the player using an ability.


Dont forget that C:SW is a 5th Edition Codex. The author probably wasnt aware that 6th edition will forbid the use of his ability. The Tau codex on the other hand was written with the knowledge that 6th has such a restriction.

So the intent behind the wording (and the fact there is a faq for Logan) may be completely different although they are similar.


No, it could not be. But its highly unlikely just becuase its a 5ED ability they allow it - considering all other 5ED abilities have not been FAQ'd, and theres still alot of them out there.

Sir Arun - Not really. Again like Logans ability, as it does not require the unit to do anything, the unit do not even have to be on the board. Rumours are the FAQ system is changing to a more real time format, so while they have this change ongoing we are unlikely to see many FAQ releases in the near future.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/12/10 13:34:42


It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.

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 Sir Arun wrote:
It fazes me that 6th edition FAQs are surprisingly brief. In 5th ed we usually used to get several pages worth of FAQ. Since the Tau Errata is out, I doubt this will be officially covered in any near future.

I'll just stick to choosing a PEN power and *then* rolling for reserves unless someone can point out to me in the BRB that I cannot do that.

Similar to being forbidden from going flat out and disembarking in the same turn, you'd be breaking a rule to do so. Either you cannot choose an ability or you cannot bring that unit in from reserves. You cannot do both.

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 Nem wrote:


No, it could not be. But its highly unlikely just becuase its a 5ED ability they allow it - considering all other 5ED abilities have not been FAQ'd, and theres still alot of them out there.


So you are telling me that the intent of both authors was the same when they wrote the words?

Both rulings were written under completely different reserve rules. Thats a fact. So it could indeed be intended by the tau codex to limit the PENs use. I know thats speculation. But thats the problem of every single RAI argument ever made. Its speculation.
   
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 Mywik wrote:
 Nem wrote:


No, it could not be. But its highly unlikely just becuase its a 5ED ability they allow it - considering all other 5ED abilities have not been FAQ'd, and theres still alot of them out there.


So you are telling me that the intent of both authors was the same when they wrote the words?

No. A) There's no way to prove that. B) We know the intent of the Logan rule was for it to work on entry from Reserves - there was no restriction in place when the codex was written. There was a restriction in place before the codex was written for Tau. Therefore we must assume the Tau author was aware of the rule and wrote the PEN rule to coexist with the reserves rule, intending that you cannot choose a rule if you deep strike.

Both rulings were written under completely different reserve rules. Thats a fact. So it could indeed be intended by the tau codex to limit the PENs use. I know thats speculation. But thats the problem of every single RAI argument ever made. Its speculation.

In this case it's speculation without basis. You have nothing other than an assumption that it should work to prove RAI. There is tangible evidence to the contrary (that the p125 rule existed before the Tau codex).

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rigeld2 wrote:

We know the intent of the Logan rule was for it to work on entry from Reserves - there was no restriction in place when the codex was written. There was a restriction in place before the codex was written for Tau. Therefore we must assume the Tau author was aware of the rule and wrote the PEN rule to coexist with the reserves rule, intending that you cannot choose a rule if you deep strike.
.


Thats exactly what i said.


In this case it's speculation without basis. You have nothing other than an assumption that it should work to prove RAI. There is tangible evidence to the contrary (that the p125 rule existed before the Tau codex).


I never assumed it works. I did the opposite in this argument.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/12/10 13:51:30


 
   
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 Sir Arun wrote:
It fazes me that 6th edition FAQs are surprisingly brief. In 5th ed we usually used to get several pages worth of FAQ. Since the Tau Errata is out, I doubt this will be officially covered in any near future.

I'll just stick to choosing a PEN power and *then* rolling for reserves unless someone can point out to me in the BRB that I cannot do that.


Other than the fact that if you are coming in from reserves any power you choose you cannot use? Your reserve roll order has nothing to do with it.
   
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SHE-FI-ELD

But the person who wrote the Tau rule did so knowing there was a faq released allowing essentially the same ability to trigger, and chose still to word it in the same way- with the unit not using anything.

It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.

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 Nem wrote:
But the person who wrote the Tau rule did so knowing there was a faq released allowing essentially the same ability to trigger, and chose still to word it in the same way- with the unit not using anything.


And in knowing about the reserve rule and how specific > general work, he would have stated that it could be used the turn in came in from reserves.
   
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Firebase Zulu

Fragile wrote:
 Sir Arun wrote:
It fazes me that 6th edition FAQs are surprisingly brief. In 5th ed we usually used to get several pages worth of FAQ. Since the Tau Errata is out, I doubt this will be officially covered in any near future.

I'll just stick to choosing a PEN power and *then* rolling for reserves unless someone can point out to me in the BRB that I cannot do that.


Other than the fact that if you are coming in from reserves any power you choose you cannot use? Your reserve roll order has nothing to do with it.


Then I'm not going to allow my opponent to make psychic shooting attacks after they deep strike. Psychic Powers and other abilities that are used during shooting and assault phase are perfectly fine to use.

I still haven't seen anyone rightly explain how to get around the fact that, much like a psycher gaining his warp charges or a unit in reserves having to roll to come on the board starting in turn 2, the wording on the PEN chip is stated as something you must do and not an optional thing. Cause if it is in fact an optional thing then I do believe I am going to start delaying my reserve rolls till more strategic moments.
   
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 Miri wrote:
Then I'm not going to allow my opponent to make psychic shooting attacks after they deep strike. Psychic Powers and other abilities that are used during shooting and assault phase are perfectly fine to use.

So PSAs/witchfires that are used during the shooting phase are no but psychic powers during the shooting phase are okay?

I still haven't seen anyone rightly explain how to get around the fact that, much like a psycher gaining his warp charges or a unit in reserves having to roll to come on the board starting in turn 2, the wording on the PEN chip is stated as something you must do and not an optional thing. Cause if it is in fact an optional thing then I do believe I am going to start delaying my reserve rolls till more strategic moments.

When must the PEN be used?
What does p125 restrict?
When has anyone said the PEN is optional?
Why do you think that's relevant?

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 Nem wrote:
But the person who wrote the Tau rule did so knowing there was a faq released allowing essentially the same ability to trigger, and chose still to word it in the same way- with the unit not using anything.
They also knew how the the rule in the rulebook worked, and chose to word it in such a way that it would apply.
   
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Firebase Zulu

rigeld2 wrote:

When must the PEN be used?
What does p125 restrict?
When has anyone said the PEN is optional?
Why do you think that's relevant?


I think it is relevant because psyckers get their warp charges at the start of movement phase. If they are in reserve and come on the field that turn, by p125 they can't generate warp charges. The psychic section says it is an automatic generation but there is no exception in the text that says 'even on the turn they come in from reserve'. Therefor I argue that if the 'must generate warp charges' of psychers happens then the 'must choose one of four powers' of the PEN happens.
   
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/12/11 10:30:22


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SHE-FI-ELD

Thats the point though - it doesn't apply.
The unit it not using an ability. The restriction is a unit can not use an ability that must be used at the start of the turn when arriving from reserves, this is specifically forbidding the models from using an ability- the problem with PEN is the unit is not using an ability until they use the special rule PEN grants, which are used later in the turn. PEN is a passive ability where the 'unit' do not 'use' an ability.

Granting an ability or special rule to the unit =/= a unit using an ability or special rule.

PEN is the first of those things.

Passive 'abilities' with no action from the unit do not come under the restriction on 125, neither does granting the unit a special rule. If this were the case then we could not cast blessings on the unit, PEN is in essence an blessing which can only be applied to a specific unit and the source is the player, rather than another model on the board. Warp charge generation has already been noted as a passive ability..

PEN is an ability which grants a special rule to the unit at the start of the turn, the only inference from the unit is that they receive a special rule. I'm really struggling to see how this can be considered to fall under the restriction of page 125, other than the fact an ability is used - yes it can cause confusion, but it is not the unit using that ability, and I've yet to see here anyone claiming or explaining how the unit is using an ability.
Warp charge is granted at the start of the turn when the model has the special rule Psyker, the model isn't 'using the special rule' - its passive.
PEN just grants special rule at the start of the turn when you have the wargear, the unit isn't 'using the wargear' these are passive.

Unit 'using' PEN would be written as; At the beginning of the turn, a unit with PEN can choose one of the following special rules........ Now there's plenty of rules written as such. PEN isn't one of them

This message was edited 14 times. Last update was at 2013/12/11 13:04:02


It's my codex and I'll cry If I want to.

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