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 jifel wrote:

 Maelstrom808 wrote:
That change to blinding venom bodes very poorly for gargoyles.

But, have a few gargs use the venom to blind a unit while the rest attack... you only lose a little CC power to potentially cripple them next turn for an MC charge. I actually don't see this as a nerf.

I still don't like losing the old blinding venom rule, but I can be okay with it as long as they don't mess with the cost/ability to take toxin sacs and adrenal glands. Call me gunshy.

Onslaught lost the no charging restriction. Unless they faq it. Makes it slightly more useful.

Assuming of course the rumors of certain units being able to run and still assault pan out.

You can't assault if you run.

Depending on the cost the reaper bone sword might be a fun option.

What we really need to know is what GW will do to rectify the nids inability to take allies. This is, imo, the single greatest problem facing nids.

If Blinding Venom still comes stock on all Gargoyles, and they always attack with it like they did before. I think it could be better than it's previous incarnation. If I'm reading it right it gives poisoned (6+), which would mean re-rolls to hit against T4 or lower, and T5 or lower on the charge with adrenal glands. And wounding big tough scary units on 6, with the chance of blinding, makes them a horrible tarpit, even more than they are now! Send these guys rushing forward, tie down a wraithknight/riptide let you Carnifex Brood finish them off.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
We slip inevitably closer to stage 5.

Anyway, my heart is torn. On the one hand, I totally empathize with the complaints about things like AP4 and other weak AP attacks that we're seeing here. But on the other hand, Space Marines really need a break this edition. There are far too many 3+ save ignoring attacks in this meta as is.

I'm waiting for the game developers to realise the AP system is terrible and unbalanced. I've been waiting since 2nd edition

Marines have been kicking ass forever, now there not, sod them, I'm a long suffering dark Angel player and love beating codex marines to death

Well looky looky, no ew relics, like I said haha

Rumors from 4chan (I know I know):

Swarmlord is even more of a CC monster than he is now:

Let me put it this way, within an average of 5 instances each bad *** rival, mathhammered to averages:

vs Abaddon - Victorious after two phases, with 1.08 wounds taken in return.
vs Skarbrand - Victorious after two phases, with 0.78 wounds taken in return.
vs Be'lakor - Victorious after three phases, with 0.67 wounds taken in return.*
vs Ghazghull Thraka under Waaagh! - Victorious after four phases, with 0.43 wounds taken in turn.
vs Draigo: Victorious after four phases, with 0.33 wounds taken in turn.

Notice a pattern?

Eldercaveman wrote:
If Blinding Venom still comes stock on all Gargoyles, and they always attack with it like they did before. I think it could be better than it's previous incarnation. If I'm reading it right it gives poisoned (6+), which would mean re-rolls to hit against T4 or lower, and T5 or lower on the charge with adrenal glands. And wounding big tough scary units on 6, with the chance of blinding, makes them a horrible tarpit, even more than they are now! Send these guys rushing forward, tie down a wraithknight/riptide let you Carnifex Brood finish them off.

gargs are S3. rerolls vs T3, or T4 on the charge with adrenal glands.

the new venom is functionally the same vs. a T4, WS3 or WS4 target at @17% per garg on every round after the first.

problem is that the old venom was more than twice as effective during the charge, with 2 attacks each giving you a 34%ish chance of an autowound vs anything with a T value, at any WS. the new venom is also significantly worse at anything T5+ (8%ish) or anything with WS 7 or better.

someone pointed out blind to me earlier, it'll help you tarpit things you couuld already easily tarpit (such as low I MC's), otherwise it's not much of a factor.

If blind was per hit or wound I could see it being better

Space Marines have been mid-tier for two editions now (sans Space Wolves, I guess).

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Space Marines have been mid-tier for two editions now (sans Space Wolves, I guess).

You do realize vanilla marines are supposed to be mid-tier right? It kinda comes with their rule of "jack of trades, master of none."

Grey knights, blood angels, space wolves were great in 5th, 4th Im not sure iI can't really remember, 3rd was blood angels rhino rush and space wolves, dark angels had a good run in 3rd too... Ah that was a fun 2 week's

 Formosa wrote:
If blind was per hit or wound I could see it being better

Blind is per hit. Blind states that any unit hit by a model or weapon with blind must immediately take an I test. That is different than what is said with pinning. Each hit (in this case with blinding venom) will cause an I test.

NamelessBard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
If blind was per hit or wound I could see it being better

Blind is per hit. Blind states that any unit hit by a model or weapon with blind must immediately take an I test. That is different than what is said with pinning. Each hit (in this case with blinding venom) will cause an I test.

Then surely that's pretty good, force enough tests and there gonna fail right?

 Formosa wrote:

NamelessBard wrote:

 Formosa wrote:
If blind was per hit or wound I could see it being better

Blind is per hit. Blind states that any unit hit by a model or weapon with blind must immediately take an I test. That is different than what is said with pinning. Each hit (in this case with blinding venom) will cause an I test.

Then surely that's pretty good, force enough tests and there gonna fail right?

Pretty sure thats the tyranids moto.

If Gargoyles come stock with blind per model I am buying 20 of them!

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Space Marines have been mid-tier for two editions now (sans Space Wolves, I guess).

You do realize vanilla marines are supposed to be mid-tier right? It kinda comes with their rule of "jack of trades, master of none."

You do realize that if they're mid-tier that means that they can not, by definition, have been "kicking ass forever", right?

Space Wolves, BA and Grey Knights were all pretty decent in 5th. But then they were nowhere near top-tier in a world with 5E Necrons, Imperial Guard, and Dark Eldar (who were pretty strong in 5th).

Thinking about it, 5th was pretty cool in that regard. Maybe it's because almost every codex used metal-bawkses lists.

Pretty underwhelming sets of upgrades on all of the leaked pages. Let's hope they don't cost too many points.

I cling to the hope that the dataslates will make some models more useful.

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Space Marines have been mid-tier for two editions now (sans Space Wolves, I guess).

You do realize vanilla marines are supposed to be mid-tier right? It kinda comes with their rule of "jack of trades, master of none."

You do realize that if they're mid-tier that means that they can not, by definition, have been "kicking ass forever", right?

For your education:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Enceladus wrote:
Pretty underwhelming sets of upgrades on all of the leaked pages. Let's hope they don't cost too many points.

I cling to the hope that the dataslates will make some models more useful.

Hope is forsaken in these lands...

...This is 5e all over again for me. When that dex first dropped, IT took me like 4 months to figure out a workable build for my meta, losing every single game. even after that, until 6th dropped my W/L record was abysmal.
I'm willing to bet that cruddace also has heavy influence on the guard codex, and that it will once again totally overshadow nids in every way. Again.

Also, Im hoping that someone with these codexes can confirm/deny the terrible rumor that nids only get their completely aweful psy powers. It'd be like playing CSM (already meh list) and being forced into only the tzeench discipline...


But so far, list of things against my favorite army (which I will continue to spitefully play)
1. No allies
2. No fortifications
3. No use of Stronghold
4. Terrible againt Escalation
5. 1-2 gimmecky units
6. A whole trove of terrible units
7. Overcosted upgrades that -should- be on half the units in the first place
8. Now apperantly my army kills itself 1/6 of the time. <<This is my biggest gripe. on two of the rumored IB tables, Each has a 'kill your own dudes lol' option. Does any other army have a 16% chance that they are forced to attack their own army/units because they werent all bunched up? no.
9. GW once again nerfing former viable options into the ground (Tyrant w/biomancy, Trygon, Gargoyles) in favor of pushing its new models (Crone/haruspex/exocrine)

Granted, it is 3:30am here, and I'm super grumpy over seeing all of these pictures of the new codex. I just hope this is similar to eldar, where until the total codex synergy was realized when it was actually released. Hope. Hope.... there is no 'hope' in grimdark......

>

Anymore leaked images!!! I need more info!!

God, I hope we can ally with ourselves.

bodazoka wrote:
Anymore leaked images!!! I need more info!!

I'm with this guy. Show me a Tyrant/Swarmlord profile page!

Mr. Cruddace 5th ed nids was an ok codex, people played with too little terrain, going by 5th ed BRB it was supposed to be 25% and 1-2 big LOS blocking pieces. We played with 2 and everyone was scared of nids, obviously in shops with 3 small ruins and a tree they were going to suck (and IG shine btw) but that's not what the codex was designed for. Even Carnifex worked, was still overpriced ofc but not useless.

I'm not saying this means the new one will be good, no spores no doom already pisses me off not the mention I hate 6th edition tables everywhere trend, rolling for powers and warlord traits etc. Mr. Cruddace possibly being an author of the book does not raise a red flag for me at all though.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
We slip inevitably closer to stage 5.

Anyway, my heart is torn. On the one hand, I totally empathize with the complaints about things like AP4 and other weak AP attacks that we're seeing here. But on the other hand, Space Marines really need a break this edition. There are far too many 3+ save ignoring attacks in this meta as is.

I'm waiting for the game developers to realise the AP system is terrible and unbalanced. I've been waiting since 2nd edition

It makes perfect sense and should stay.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


For your education:

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GameplayAndStorySegregation

It's almost as if you jumped into my discussion with Formosa without reading anything we actually said, and are now just making erroneous statements. Allow me to illuminate you.

Formosa said that Space Marines were top-tier armies in 5th edition. I stated that they were predominantly mid-tier in 5th Edition.

Explain how "they've supposed to be mid-tier!" is in any way, shape or form relevant to my assertion that they're mid-tier.

 Carnage43 wrote:
My analysis;

Psychic powers;

Primaris is crap....utterly.
1. Catalyst = better than ever, although the 12" range kinda bothers me.
2. The Horror. Pinning, in a game where half of the units in it are immune to pinning. The text is a bit shiny, so I cannot tell if there is a modifier to their leadership. Overall, not amazing at best, awful at worst.
3. Onslaught. Run and shoot....meh. Not awful, but not something I'd be looking for.
4. Paroxysm. Only -D3 now instead of reducing to 1. At least they doubled the range though. Passable, since it makes WS3 gaunts a lot scarier in melee.
5. Psychic scream...if only we still had mysetic spore to actually get into range to use this....
6. Warp blast. Nerfed the AP1 on the lance? Also, warp charge 2, so only for tyrants, Zoanthropes and swarmlord AFAIK. Passable....I suppose. Might be cool for a winged tyrant with a S10 AP2 weapon....although, BS3 all around = :(

How this table affects our main caster, the Flyrant, is unfortunate. IF he gets mastery level two, the table is passable, with a small chance of getting nothing useful, but being able to spam the best power it gets... But I don't think they would get such a buff and a points reduction at the same time. So assuming they stay level 1, they run the risk of getting Warp Blast which they cannot even cast, The Horror which even if you find something to viable to cast it on will likely do very little for your army and absolutely nothing for the Flyrant itself, Onslaught which literally has no effect, and a Primaris power so useless that even on the off times that it is useful, I probably would prefer taking the feed check over risking perils on my Flyrant. This leaves Paroxysm which has been made weaker but is no longer a shooting attack making it infinitely better and actually useable, Catalyst which is stronger than ever, and Psychic Scream, which at the cost of firing a weapon is REALLY situational (it is highly reliant on opponents army choice, as well as both of your positioning choices, and even then has a roll to cast, roll to deny, and a roll for leadership to deal damage), but is not of absolutely NO use (I mean it will do more to a Fire Warrior squad than 6 devourer shots). But at the end of the day this is a very risky table for the Flyrant if he stays at Psyker lvl 1 and does not begin with a choice of powers like he used to, and is without argument a nerf if he can't take Biomancy powers instead. There is nothing on here that I wouldn't change for Endurance let alone Iron Arm. If he gets Psyker level two, its still a nerf, but with the points reduction its justifiable, and casting dual Paroxysm + Firing Dual Devourers every turn is probably the most use a Flyrant could ever be.


How this table affects the Tervigon is basically - if he comes with Catalyst stock standard he doesn't want to roll, otherwise, he wants to roll on this table and hope for Catalyst nothing else is very good for him, at all.


Zoanthropes Warp Lance is no longer AP 1 which was one of my favourite things about him to be honest. There is a lot of rolls that go into landing a pen with Warp Lance, when I finally did land one I liked to have a good chance on my roll of causing an explosion. Even with the points reduction, i think that now they have no Pods they will be far far FAR too unreliable to justify taking up an elite slot, over HG and Exocrine who will definitely be able to move some weight every game.


To summarize the facts at hands, its really not the news any of us were hoping for going into 6th so I think complaints are justified. Anyone in here raging about people complaining about confirmed information on the codex because they don't have the full codex yet, needs to sit back in their seat. When the good news comes, it will get raucous applause. Till then, you guys look like the 3 people in the audience who can be softly heard giving up sympathy claps amongst the 100 other people sitting silently after a terrible stage performance. There is not much here that doesn't deserve a bad response, are we supposed to just say nothing at all? To keep you happy? How about you just avoid the news and rumours thread if you aren't interested in discussion about the news and rumours, and wait for the Codex to drop if all you want to hear is opinions about the finished Codex, because we can't give you those yet.

 SHUPPET wrote:

 Carnage43 wrote:
My analysis;

Psychic powers;

Primaris is crap....utterly.
1. Catalyst = better than ever, although the 12" range kinda bothers me.
2. The Horror. Pinning, in a game where half of the units in it are immune to pinning. The text is a bit shiny, so I cannot tell if there is a modifier to their leadership. Overall, not amazing at best, awful at worst.
3. Onslaught. Run and shoot....meh. Not awful, but not something I'd be looking for.
4. Paroxysm. Only -D3 now instead of reducing to 1. At least they doubled the range though. Passable, since it makes WS3 gaunts a lot scarier in melee.
5. Psychic scream...if only we still had mysetic spore to actually get into range to use this....
6. Warp blast. Nerfed the AP1 on the lance? Also, warp charge 2, so only for tyrants, Zoanthropes and swarmlord AFAIK. Passable....I suppose. Might be cool for a winged tyrant with a S10 AP2 weapon....although, BS3 all around = :(

How this table affects our main caster, the Flyrant, is unfortunate. IF he gets mastery level two, the table is passable, with a small chance of getting nothing useful, but being able to spam the best power it gets... But I don't think they would get such a buff and a points reduction at the same time. So assuming they stay level 1, they run the risk of getting Warp Blast which they cannot even cast, The Horror which even if you find something to viable to cast it on will likely do very little for your army and absolutely nothing for the Flyrant itself, Onslaught which literally has no effect, and a Primaris power so useless that even on the off times that it is useful, I probably would prefer taking the feed check over risking perils on my Flyrant. This leaves Paroxysm which has been made weaker but is no longer a shooting attack making it infinitely better and actually useable, Catalyst which is stronger than ever, and Psychic Scream, which at the cost of firing a weapon is REALLY situational (it is highly reliant on opponents army choice, as well as both of your positioning choices, and even then has a roll to cast, roll to deny, and a roll for leadership to deal damage), but is not of absolutely NO use (I mean it will do more to a Fire Warrior squad than 6 devourer shots). But at the end of the day this is a very risky table for the Flyrant if he stays at Psyker lvl 1 and does not begin with a choice of powers like he used to, and is without argument a nerf if he can't take Biomancy powers instead. There is nothing on here that I wouldn't change for Endurance let alone Iron Arm. If he gets Psyker level two, its still a nerf, but with the points reduction its justifiable, and casting dual Paroxysm + Firing Dual Devourers every turn is probably the most use a Flyrant could ever be.


How this table affects the Tervigon is basically - if he comes with Catalyst stock standard he doesn't want to roll, otherwise, he wants to roll on this table and hope for Catalyst nothing else is very good for him, at all.


Zoanthropes Warp Lance is no longer AP 1 which was one of my favourite things about him to be honest. There is a lot of rolls that go into landing a pen with Warp Lance, when I finally did land one I liked to have a good chance on my roll of causing an explosion. Even with the points reduction, i think that now they have no Pods they will be far far FAR too unreliable to justify taking up an elite slot, over HG and Exocrine who will definitely be able to move some weight every game.


To summarize the facts at hands, its really not the news any of us were hoping for going into 6th so I think complaints are justified. Anyone in here raging about people complaining about confirmed information on the codex because they don't have the full codex yet, needs to sit back in their seat. When the good news comes, it will get raucous applause. Till then, you guys look like the 3 people in the audience who can be softly heard giving up sympathy claps amongst the 100 other people sitting silently after a terrible stage performance. There is not much here that doesn't deserve a bad response, are we supposed to just say nothing at all? To keep you happy? How about you just avoid the news and rumours thread if you aren't interested in discussion about the news and rumours, and wait for the Codex to drop if all you want to hear is opinions about the finished Codex, because we can't give you those yet.

The White Dwarf battle report had a Flyrant with two brain-leech devourers and psychic mastery level 2 for 230 points. Given that mastery levels always cost 25 points, we can assume the standard Flyrant build with two brain leech devourers will be 205 points.

Pre ordered a Warrior brood and the Carnifex brood (the one with x2 in) from Wayland for my brother. Saved myself about 10-15 bucks. In fairness to GW the Carnifex x2 brood is a pretty good deal for £55!!