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DaddyWarcrimes wrote:

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Jifel, couldn't you in theory take one of the longer fortifications like say the firestorm redoubt (which has automated fire so the nids don't have to worry about manning the weapons) or even the fortress of redemption. Turn it sideways, put an escape hatch 12 inches even further.

Then infiltrate. Deploy within 6 inches of disembarking and you will have cleared the entire middle of the board on turn 1 with your genestealers.

Its gamey, but it would be hilarious to see. Remember guys "its just beer and pretzels" so seeing someone come up with such a clever trick is "all in good fun".

If it does work ill have to try it.

You still can't assault out of an escape hatch, so your genestealers miraculously appear within rapid fire range and get shot into little tiny pieces.. The only thing that makes it less terrible than Outflanking them is not having to eat the round of Interceptor fire when you arrive.

So put a normal hatch up front? You can assault out of that, and it can be up to the halfway point. You still deploy 6" past the midway point, any army that isn't even scared by this is backed WAY up. Too far for a reliable assault? Stay there and jump out later when your opponent is closer, or let him rot in the very far corner while you bunker down on some objectives.

I like the escape hatch so you can go claim an objective, or put a Venomthrope into it, or any other unit, from far away to add options for you in game. And, it lets you get into it turn one if it's all the way up front even without infiltrating.

 jifel wrote:

 TheKbob wrote:
You can now start a Storm Raven on a Skyshield first turn with a 4++ save (thanks, Stronghold!)

Venomthropes are eating up your elite slot now and are easy targets for anything that ignores cover.

Read pretty much every book out there right now has it.

Tau have it.

Eldar have it on one common gun, the Serpent Shield.

"Pretty much every"? What about (Sm, CSM, DA, BA, Daemons, DE, Crons, Orks Sisters, Nids) which don't have that much or any ignores cover. Solution? Simple. Put it in a Bastion. Tau are bad against Bastions, sorry. So are Eldar. Killed it with another army? Great, its in the ruins with a 2++ cover.

PS Venoms eating up slots? What the heck else are we putting in there? Elites took a collective shot to the crotch, minus Venomthropes. Hive Guard are possibly meh and Lictors are curiosity inducing at best, otherwise, no. Venoms are our best Elite now.

There is a bit too much negativity. Yes some units sucked, no its not what we wanted, yes its frustrating. But heck I'm not giving up on the book! I feel like the only one throwing out tactics and ideas here. And even if it is a bad book, what? It's the one we got. I'm not a quitter, I'll stick to the book. I'll enjoy bucking the trend if I must, because this book isn't Dead on Arrival. Sure its wounded, but we're Nids! Put some thought into it, and it'll Regen.

When power gamers say "every book out there" they mean Tau and Eldar.

Don't bring your positive fun attitude into this! This is an angry mob! Look at this garbage!!! Not a single re-rollable 2++ save in the whole book!! Where is my T8, W6 jumping MC with sky fire, interceptor and 10 str 8 shots a turn?!?! I was promised Tervigons that produce 4d6 gaunts without burning out!! Why, with this book, I can't expect anywhere close to a 90% win rate. /s

 ductvader wrote:

Since we have so many tyranid experts, we know what happens when an army with cheap disposable transports plants them in front of a walking haruspex?

You blow up one and walk over it...

The same way I blow up rhinos and drive my rhinos over their wrecks...

Yup and every turn you spend assaulting the sacrificial units means another turn of shooting you eat.

@ Jifel ~ Not a lot of ignores cover? Daemons have a bs5 str8 cannon with ignores cover. Perfect for killing venomthropes. How about *any army that can roll divination* can ignore cover with any unit that can join an IC.

 jifel wrote:
There is a bit too much negativity. Yes some units sucked, no its not what we wanted, yes its frustrating. But heck I'm not giving up on the book! I feel like the only one throwing out tactics and ideas here. And even if it is a bad book, what? It's the one we got. I'm not a quitter, I'll stick to the book. I'll enjoy bucking the trend if I must, because this book isn't Dead on Arrival. Sure its wounded, but we're Nids! Put some thought into it, and it'll Regen.

Oh, I think there were a few of us talking about things we liked.

I get that it's a hobby and that people are passionate about the hobby. I also get that we're in the peak part of the emotional cycle of a codex release. But I think the tone in this thread could stand to be lowered a couple levels on all sides. Way too much snarkiness going on IMO, and I worry a little about the health of some of you folks. Even a lot of the more polite posting has been...intense? Sure, I know all of you are cold-blooded killas with ice in your veins...although I suspect your BPs would suggest otherwise.

Anyway, jifel, I'm with you. There are some things that are frustrating about the codex, but I've had frustrations with every single codex I've owned going back to 2nd edition. I've accepted the shortcomings of this one and I'm moving forward with it. There's enough in there that I know I'll have fun with it.

I see a couple of solid possible builds but they depend on specific wording of rules as to whether I think they'll work.

Overall I'm excited for the book. I hated the way Nids played previously and this book brings them back to a style I like. And I feel like it's got the competitive slant I'm looking for.

I do feel that trying to build a psychic list out of this book is doomed to failure though. And since so many people played Nids most recently around psychic powers and tervigons I can see where all the anger comes from.

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Since we have so many tyranid experts, we know what happens when an army with cheap disposable transports plants them in front of a walking haruspex?

You blow up one and walk over it...

The same way I blow up rhinos and drive my rhinos over their wrecks...

Yup and every turn you spend assaulting the sacrificial units means another turn of shooting you eat.

@ Jifel ~ Not a lot of ignores cover? Daemons have a bs5 str8 cannon with ignores cover. Perfect for killing venomthropes. How about *any army that can roll divination* can ignore cover with any unit that can join an IC.

A Skullcannon? I have never seen one fielded, ever. Not even in a Batrep, not even in the P&M section, not even in the Army list section. Its easy to pull a unit out of any codex that can deal with a unit. I mean, Night Scythes suck because Guard players can take a squadron of two Hydras which can totally deal with it. Except, Guard players never actually take hydras so it works out ok for Necrons somehow. Would any Daemon player ever take a Skullcannon unless they were list-tailoring? You have some points on this being a badly written codex, but people said that last time, and I played it for four years. I can do it again.

As to Divination, yes. If they roll it. And if they pass their Psychic check. If they aren't in Shadow range. And if our Venoms are in line of sight. This is a problem with Farseers (on Tau, who have MLs anyways) and inquisitors. Frankly I don't know who Inquisitors can ally with though.

CinciWarBoss wrote:

When power gamers say "every book out there" they mean Tau and Eldar.

Don't bring your positive fun attitude into this! This is an angry mob! Look at this garbage!!! Not a single re-rollable 2++ save in the whole book!! Where is my T8, W6 jumping MC with sky fire, interceptor and 10 str 8 shots a turn?!?! I was promised Tervigons that produce 4d6 gaunts without burning out!! Why, with this book, I can't expect anywhere close to a 90% win rate. /s

Cool strawman, but I haven't seen anyone complaining about what your claiming.

Oh well, bummer about the building trick. Back to just using the heirophant.

Gentlemen, lets stop this bickering, it and the personal attacks are beneath you.


Oh, and for those asking "when will the dex be posted..."

Or "wait till you see the whole dex".
The codex is here, most of it has been for days....sadly, the recent news has not changed the past..

I have scoured the various sites, and thus far, excepting for the page with trygons on it, they have been posted.
(no, I don't mean rumors, or "I read that..." I mean actual rules from actual pages).


We have;
The special rules.
The warlord table.
The instinctive behavior table.
The psychic powers.
The relics.
The melee and ranged weapons (three pages of them)
The biomorph upgrades (war gear).
We have all the unit and upgrade costs.
We have the entire stat sheet and reference pages in english.
We have detailed descriptions for;

HQ:
SwarmLord
hive tyrant
Old One Eye
Tyranid Prime.
Deathleaper
Tervigons
Tyrant Guard

Troops:
Tyranid Warrors
Stealers (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades).
Broodloards (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades).
Hormagants (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades)
Rippers (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades)
Termagants (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades)

Fast:
Harpy
Crone
Raveners
Red Terror
Gargoyles (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades)
Tyranid Shrike
Sky Slasher Swarm - not sure of upgrades!!!!

Elite
Harspex
Hive Guard
Venomthrope
Lictor
Zonethrope
Pyrovore

Heavy
Biovore
Carnifex (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades)
Exocrine
Trygon & Prime (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades)
Mawloc (missing full page scan, but have statlines, costs, and upgrades) - but we have all the rules.
Tryannofex

If all the scanned pages out there had page numbers on them, I could even tell you the exact pages were are missing.
Ladies and gentelmen, we HAVE the codex. There is no mystery, there is no magic information we are missing.

Now, is the sky falling? No.

But intelligent experienced players can make very good estimates as its overall quality - to deny it, or make justification as to why a player should not want or expect a good book, is a waste of energy.

Sure, some amazing combos will come out of it, and yes there will be some eureka moments from it. I have no doubt.

I am confident I will build winning armies out of it, after I took tau to tourneys in 5th, and did very well with them.
But, it was a lot of work, and brokered no error or sloppy play....sadly, something I suspect may be true of this book.

May the hive mind have mercy on us all.....

(oh, and if you know of scans of the missing pages, let me know).
Edited for typos:

 IcedAnimals wrote:
Oh well, bummer about the building trick. Back to just using the heirophant.

I wonder how they fix that unit. Lash whips just give +3I now so its whips are a little useless.

 jifel wrote:

 hyv3mynd wrote:

 ductvader wrote:

Since we have so many tyranid experts, we know what happens when an army with cheap disposable transports plants them in front of a walking haruspex?

You blow up one and walk over it...

The same way I blow up rhinos and drive my rhinos over their wrecks...

Yup and every turn you spend assaulting the sacrificial units means another turn of shooting you eat.

@ Jifel ~ Not a lot of ignores cover? Daemons have a bs5 str8 cannon with ignores cover. Perfect for killing venomthropes. How about *any army that can roll divination* can ignore cover with any unit that can join an IC.

A Skullcannon? I have never seen one fielded, ever. Not even in a Batrep, not even in the P&M section, not even in the Army list section. Its easy to pull a unit out of any codex that can deal with a unit. I mean, Night Scythes suck because Guard players can take a squadron of two Hydras which can totally deal with it. Except, Guard players never actually take hydras so it works out ok for Necrons somehow. Would any Daemon player ever take a Skullcannon unless they were list-tailoring? You have some points on this being a badly written codex, but people said that last time, and I played it for four years. I can do it again.

As to Divination, yes. If they roll it. And if they pass their Psychic check. If they aren't in Shadow range. And if our Venoms are in line of sight. This is a problem with Farseers (on Tau, who have MLs anyways) and inquisitors. Frankly I don't know who Inquisitors can ally with though.

One of my blog authors has fielded up to 2 skull cannons regularly, and has outperformed myself at 75% of the events we both attend. He also won our local inviational championships last month without fateweaver or a grimoire. It's unfortunate that the most popular daemon builds are either screamer stars or flying circuses, but skull cannons are not uncompetitive choices.

This is how the meta evolves people. If venomthropes become perceived as such a threat that meta lists change (see: list tailoring to counter riptides, wraithknights, wave serpents, etc), plenty of armies have valid counters that don't require massive rewrites. IG have many methods of ignoring cover, other hive guard, anything with barrage and a directional hit, anything that can vector strike, thunderfire cannons, the list goes on. Just about anything that can ignore cover is a competitively viable unit in a TAC list so a rise in shrouding bubbles will see a counter rise in counter measures.

I'm not buying into the fortification combo. All it takes is a wise opponent to peg your strategy before deployment and out play the gimmick. Relying on a deployment trick that locks you into a predictable placement and movement pattern is shoehorning yourself into a rock/paper/scissors situation.

@davethepak, very good points. We know the codex at this point barring the ridiculous, but we know it. I still think the building trick can work for getting assault units up the board fast.

EDIT: Yes, the bunkers a gimmick. But, countering it is tricky, avoiding it is easy but potentially disastorous if you stay backed up too long. If they think of some way to counter it, I'd have to infiltate the Stealers elsewhere I suppose.

The only thing I just really want to know...is why did they pick on swarmy. I had a custom one built(in my dakka gallery) and had issues getting him in games before this dex. Losing IA ( mostly for the EW) and no forcing re rolls on invul saves. He is a dead man vs any of the top cc models now. He is to become a paper weight at my desk now.

CinciWarBoss wrote:

When power gamers say "every book out there" they mean Tau and Eldar.

Don't bring your positive fun attitude into this! This is an angry mob! Look at this garbage!!! Not a single re-rollable 2++ save in the whole book!! Where is my T8, W6 jumping MC with sky fire, interceptor and 10 str 8 shots a turn?!?! I was promised Tervigons that produce 4d6 gaunts without burning out!! Why, with this book, I can't expect anywhere close to a 90% win rate. /s

How come people are power gamers for wanting to keep Biomancy, DoM & Spores? That is everyone's main issue with the dex, I can take whatever crap they gave me this edition and would have been fine with it, at least I could still use my favourite units however bad they are, but why take out options and models that I personally acquired for my army on GW's encouragement?


In fact, the main people I see as power gamers are the ones who are saying that this dex is a good thing because of all the price drop's they can build a stronger mono-list (quite possible). This is terrible powergaming because we just lost our pods and aggressive deep strike capabilities and have pretty much been shoehorned into a single play style of walking fat MC's across the board. The fact that we weren't given OP tools in a meta where other army's have OP tools is not what most people in here care about (although it wouldn't have been unjustified to give us SOME really good units, this is of no concern to me at all), what people care about is the terrible lack of diversity.

And before you go on to say that I'm an exception, No, I'm not. FYI Power gaming, and maining a Tyranid army isn't exactly synonymous. If you had bothered to read this thread, at all, you would see that basically everyone who has an issue with the codex has made it explicitly clear that it's not the new options they are disappointed with (maybe a bit of a let down with the Crone but people overhyped that for no reason at all). Nope, people's issue is that we have lost so much of the very few strengths of our old codex. These people aren't power gamers, they are nid players from 5E who are used to having an underpowered army, who have just had strategic options taken away and told that it's a "new codex".

For a cc flyrant, would scytals still be good on it with the new scytal rules?

Sorry for this not being a long post about if I love or hate the changes!

I have a question...

Won't genestealers have to take 2 x rounds of fire?

Infiltrate within 12" of a unit (in cover). Roll to move through cover (4-5 inches maybe) you then have an 8-9" charge range?

More if that unit you want to assault moved back in there turn?

@noctem they literally do nothing for a flyrant aside from the 2nd set giving an additional attack.

 gigasnail wrote:
@noctem they literally do nothing for a flyrant aside from the 2nd set giving an additional attack.

Ah ok... I'm new to Tyranids, do the wings count as a set? Are bone sword and lash whips a better buy then?

X2 brain leech devourers are pretty much your go-to load out, nothing in the new codex has made a CC-only flyrant a good idea.

bodazoka wrote:
I have a question...

Won't genestealers have to take 2 x rounds of fire?

Infiltrate within 12" of a unit (in cover). Roll to move through cover (4-5 inches maybe) you then have an 8-9" charge range?

More if that unit you want to assault moved back in there turn?

You're assuming you can infiltrate within 12", Ive seen it done once in this edition and that was because the guy makes tables that look like castle fething greyskull. Plus you cannot charge player turn 1. And average roll is 7".

Likely scenario is you're 18" away get shot up and you will fail to get the charge off.

 gigasnail wrote:
X2 brain leech devourers are pretty much your go-to load out, nothing in the new codex has made a CC-only flyrant a good idea.

What makes cc only flyrant a bad idea? I think I'll still run one sometimes just cause I love how it looks and I want to try a mostly cc Tyranid army. If I play a with a competitive list I guess I would do the 2x devouerers (so ugly...)

Yes, through divination, most books can have it (ignores cover). My sisters have ignores cover. And Eldar and Tau, frequent enemies, have it like candy. I'm sure there are other places, too.

And trying to compare force weapons to insane amounts of easy to come by ignores cover or high strength weapons that can double out venomthropes is poor.

Finally, yea, Heldrakes DID kill large amounts of foot lists as they weren't viable. SW + IG was a tournament winning combo in pre-Heldrake 6E. Screw Heldrakes because they started the broken piece of crap rules trend with that FAQ.

I don't need Nids to be broken. I don't need Tau, Eldar, Daemons, etc. to be broken either. I'd like a game where most units were some form of playable. If you want to take what I say out of context, then be my guest. Underpowered garbage is just as bad as overpowered garbage. It limits armies, play styles, and further makes the game worse. But keep on believing people want every thing terribly OP.

In the end, if the nay sayers are right, optimists gain nothing except egg and we have a bad nids book. If we're wrong, everybody wins because we have a good nids book. But it's safe to say with the level of leaks we have, this is looking like hot street trash.

Noctem wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
X2 brain leech devourers are pretty much your go-to load out, nothing in the new codex has made a CC-only flyrant a good idea.

What makes cc only flyrant a bad idea? I think I'll still run one sometimes just cause I love how it looks and I want to try a mostly cc Tyranid army. If I play a with a competitive list I guess I would do the 2x devouerers (so ugly...)

No invulnerable save for one...

 TheKbob wrote:
Yes, through divination, most books can have it (ignores cover). My sisters have ignores cover. And Eldar and Tau, frequent enemies, have it like candy. I'm sure there are other places, too.

And trying to compare force weapons to insane amounts of easy to come by ignores cover or high strength weapons that can double out venomthropes is poor.

Finally, yea, Heldrakes DID kill large amounts of foot lists as they weren't viable. SW + IG was a tournament winning combo in pre-Heldrake 6E. Screw Heldrakes because they started the broken piece of crap rules trend with that FAQ.

I don't need Nids to be broken. I don't need Tau, Eldar, Daemons, etc. to be broken either. I'd like a game where most units were some form of playable. If you want to take what I say out of context, then be my guest. Underpowered garbage is just as bad as overpowered garbage. It limits armies, play styles, and further makes the game worse. But keep on believing people want every thing terribly OP.

In the end, if the nay sayers are right, optimists gain nothing except egg and we have a bad nids book. If we're wrong, everybody wins because we have a good nids book. But it's safe to say with the level of leaks we have, this is looking like hot street trash.

Noctem wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
X2 brain leech devourers are pretty much your go-to load out, nothing in the new codex has made a CC-only flyrant a good idea.

What makes cc only flyrant a bad idea? I think I'll still run one sometimes just cause I love how it looks and I want to try a mostly cc Tyranid army. If I play a with a competitive list I guess I would do the 2x devouerers (so ugly...)

No invulnerable save for one...

Very true... Although I would try to field with a wall of gargoyles!

Well it does look like the gunfex is back. So that is nice for us 4e players. And maybe the gunrant...

Noctem wrote:

 gigasnail wrote:
X2 brain leech devourers are pretty much your go-to load out, nothing in the new codex has made a CC-only flyrant a good idea.

What makes cc only flyrant a bad idea? I think I'll still run one sometimes just cause I love how it looks and I want to try a mostly cc Tyranid army. If I play a with a competitive list I guess I would do the 2x devouerers (so ugly...)

Then you probably want to use a regular walking Hive Tyrant who the rest of the CC army can keep up with, I've used CC flyrants with the 5E dex they could be ok but you were pretty much paying for wings to vektor strike around the map until later on, and it comes with the weakness of being shot out of the sky before you actually can safely glide down and do your damage in assault, which is not hard for alot of armys to do and quite a lot of points to spend for some Vektor Strikes. Better off walking CC Tyrants and advancing with your army and +2 save and Tyrant Guard wounds if you want him to do his job effectively imo. Especially since there is no more biomancy :(

 Ravenous D wrote:


You're assuming you can infiltrate within 12", Ive seen it done once in this edition and that was because the guy makes tables that look like castle fething greyskull. Plus you cannot charge player turn 1. And average roll is 7".

Likely scenario is you're 18" away get shot up and you will fail to get the charge off.

I agree. so

18" away from the enemy
You go first (so you can move)

Move 6" + run (lets say 6") now.. hopefully you have run into cover and are now 6" away from the enemy. So next turn they move 6" away from you (back to 12" away) and fire at you killing what 2-3. You are now say.. 13" away (loosing an inch because of model deaths) you move through cover 6" and now have an 7" charge you have to make?

Things that have to happen:
1. You have to go first which means you wont be able to capture late game objectives
2. You have to roll a 6" run move first turn
3. You have to make it into cover with your run move so you have a hope of a save
4. You have to take a full turn of shooting from the unit you want to kill
5. You need to roll a 6" move through cover role
6. You have to roll an 7" charge (likely 8" as your bound to loose a model going in)

Why are Genestealer's not beasts?

 SHUPPET wrote:

Then you probably want to use a regular walking Hive Tyrant who the rest of the CC army can keep up with, I've used CC flyrants in 5E they could be ok but you were pretty much paying for wings to vektor strike around the map until later on, and it comes with the weakness of being shot out of the sky before you actually can safely glide down and do your damage in assault, which is not hard for alot of armys to do and quite a lot of points to spend for some Vektor Strikes. Better off walking CC Tyrants and advancing with your army and +2 save and Tyrant Guard wounds if you want him to do his job effectively imo. Especially since there is no more biomancy :(

No more +2 save either. Shelrant is dead.

Guard are more expensive, but Crushing Claws are actully pretty good on them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As a personal note: I find stealers are much better as board control units. I take big broods and set them out of line of sight. gives a pretty good threat bubble and on turn 3 I take them in to attack units that are tarpitted nearby or to try and grab objectives. I never try to use them as vanguard assaulters, but no IB scoring units are good. They can go to ground too and that makes it hard to dig them out without ignores cover weapons.

And almost no one wants to assault a unit of 10+ stealers with a broodlord. Except things like TH/SS termis.

@ Gloomfang how big a brood? 15 + a BL is 270 points.

Lot's of points for objective holding?

" Read pretty much every book out there right now has it.



Tau have it.

Eldar have it on one common gun, the Serpent Shield.

"Pretty much every"? What about (Sm, CSM, DA, BA, Daemons, DE, Crons, Orks Sisters, Nids) which don't have that much or any ignores cover..."
What, are you nuts? Every flamer in the game ignores cover. CSM take hell turkeys, who cares about venoms? IG take chimera flamer squads against bugs already. Plenty of torrent weapons. Whirlwinds ignore cover, for christ sakes. Demolisher cannon. Necron night scythes.
Geesh...

bodazoka wrote:
@ Gloomfang how big a brood? 15 + a BL is 270 points.

Lot's of points for objective holding?

205pts for 10+broodlord. That is about the price for a good objective holding unit. Cheaper than a tervigon, but easier to get cover. more expensive then a big unit of devgaunts, but not dependant on synapse.

In 6th it is all about troops and objectives. You can kill my warlord and 90% of my army, but if I have two models in tne right place and your not there to contest I win the game 5 out of 6 times.