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personally, I beleive if the tac squads got a special rule that let them charge after firing there rapid fire weapons (note, not heavy weapons) for 1pt more a model, they would be MUCH more useful as you could finally take adv. of them being generalists.

And a ccw for 1 point too.

they don't even need the CCW imo. just the above would give me SO much more room to work with them. They would also feel MORE like marines IMO.

 raiden wrote:
personally, I beleive if the tac squads got a special rule that let them charge after firing there rapid fire weapons (note, not heavy weapons) for 1pt more a model, they would be MUCH more useful as you could finally take adv. of them being generalists.

*sigh* That's why they come with Bolt Pistols... Move up, pistol whip the enemy, charge-in with offensive grenades & 2 attacks per model to finish them off.
Vs. most things you want a Tac squad to be charging, it's enough of an advantage, since most non-MEQ shooters don't get the luxury of that pistol shot, and instead give-up on shooting entirely if they're thinking of assaulting.

That pistol is what helps make them generalists.

yes, but then we halve the firepower .

Giving them the ability to rapid-fire then charge would have one effect, really: No one would take Assault Marines. If I can have a squad that can put out 18 bolter shots, 2 plasma shots, and then charge for another 21 attacks, I'm not going to take a squad that gains 1A in CC at the expense of effective shooting. Mobility isn't an issue, as with a Rhino or Pod, a tac squad could be in CC just as fast as an AM squad.

Calling them generalist means they should be able to any job should they need to, but at the end of the day, the specialists like AM and Devs should be the priority for dedicated roles. Tac squads don't need fixing, really. They can shoot well enough, fight most non-dedicated CC units with a decent chance of winning, and can go after more tanks well enough with Kraks. For CC against actual threats, you should just take AM, VV or TH/SS termies.

I will second the fact that Tacs should at least get a combat knife. Wolves and CSM have them without being broken, so I can't see why SM don't.

They are one of the better troops in the game, combat squad is good enough of a special ability.

If you want to charge an enemy you're going to win combat anways, doubling your shots won't make TOO big a difference.

I bet in a lot of cases you'd NOT want the extra firepower because you'd prefer combat to resolve at the end of their assault phase.

 raiden wrote:
personally, I beleive if the tac squads got a special rule that let them charge after firing there rapid fire weapons (note, not heavy weapons) for 1pt more a model, they would be MUCH more useful as you could finally take adv. of them being generalists.

Have you ever checked Grey hunters rules?
Thats what you get with something like you ask for; they cant charge after rapid fire, but have pistols and ccw, so instead of rapid firing, you shoot your pistols and charge with 3a per grey hunter on the charge, jejejeje, but they are space wolves and don need to charge the enemy, and this is why:
The grey hunter use to be the best troops units, know, i still consider them ( i play space wolves )
The tac marines, they are like that way becuase they supose to rule the mid to long range of the battle field, with special weapons and heavy weapons, and maneuverability spliting on combat squads, to have a close range squad witha a flamer and a long one with a lascannon, i look this as a great unit to domain the mid and long range.
Otherwise, the grey hunters are lord of the closequarter combat, relaying on rapid fire and counterattack, without the nescesity of special rules to charge after firing, they recive the carge after a desvastating rapid firing shoots, hence they use two special weapons, to move and jum from cover to cover shooting 2plasma, roasting with 2flamers or blowing up tanks on the close range, they domain the mid to close range of the battlefield

yes yes, but I don't like SW fluff or models no offense to any SW players out here!

 Aijec wrote:
They are one of the better troops in the game, combat squad is good enough of a special ability.

If you want to charge an enemy you're going to win combat anways, doubling your shots won't make TOO big a difference.

I bet in a lot of cases you'd NOT want the extra firepower because you'd prefer combat to resolve at the end of their assault phase.

I dont think that cahrge with tac marines its a good idea, they suposse to be good at the long mid range, not the close combat, they have some edge on the cc, yes beacuse of the 3+ sv and streght 4, but apart from that, i dont thinks it is a good idea to charge.
About combat squad i agree with you, but is a rule to give them edge on the fire power, having lots of small units shooting all around the battle field, with long weapons (missiles and las canon) and mid range weapons (meltas, flamers, plasma and grav weapons)


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 raiden wrote:
yes yes, but I don't like SW fluff or models no offense to any SW players out here!

Nobody like the old and hairy space vinkings , but they still rules and kick some posterios parts jajajaja

yes that they do! lol.

 anyeri wrote:
The tac marines, they are like that way becuase they supose to rule the mid to long range of the battle field, with special weapons and heavy weapons, and maneuverability spliting on combat squads, to have a close range squad witha a flamer and a long one with a lascannon, i look this as a great unit to domain the mid and long range.

Yep. The way I see it Tac Squads are really a delivery vehicle for a heavy/special weapon. My elites, heavies and FAs are the ones doing the killing. My tacs simply park on objectives and use their 3+ saves and Stubborn to hold the line while providing some fire support.

It took me a while to adapt. With my orks, a lot of the battle's weight rests upon my boyz' shoulders. Marines require a different approach.

 Paradigm wrote:
Giving them the ability to rapid-fire then charge would have one effect, really: No one would take Assault Marines. If I can have a squad that can put out 18 bolter shots, 2 plasma shots, and then charge for another 21 attacks, I'm not going to take a squad that gains 1A in CC at the expense of effective shooting. Mobility isn't an issue, as with a Rhino or Pod, a tac squad could be in CC just as fast as an AM squad.

Calling them generalist means they should be able to any job should they need to, but at the end of the day, the specialists like AM and Devs should be the priority for dedicated roles. Tac squads don't need fixing, really. They can shoot well enough, fight most non-dedicated CC units with a decent chance of winning, and can go after more tanks well enough with Kraks. For CC against actual threats, you should just take AM, VV or TH/SS termies.

I will second the fact that Tacs should at least get a combat knife. Wolves and CSM have them without being broken, so I can't see why SM don't.

Especially considering that a Space Marine's melee attacks are essentially bolter shots (Strength 4) themselves. Also, CSMs don't come with CCWs anymore, which is just silly.

CSM can still buy a CCW for only 1pt, I think, so while they are not free any more, the point I was trying to make was that models with BP/CCW+Rapid-fire Weapon are not at all broken or unbalanced. Even if you up the cost by 1pt a la CSM, the option should at least be there.

Um, why are thinking tacticals need a fix? They're good as is. Only thing I'd want is the same upgrade that CSM get (the extra CCW) for 2 points per model (gotta let the CSM have it better).

Even still, I don't think they need it. Tacticals are good enough for their cost as is.

Yep, very partial to getting CCW on tacticals. They're supposed to be tactically flexible after all.

I made a thread in the proposed rules section for a similar purpose.

My idea was to grant them a piece of wargear found in the HH books called a suspensor web. It gives the option for heavy weapons to move and shoot at half range, effectively making them assault weapons. Cost it 10-15pts on top of the heavy weapon and you can have a mobile shooty unit with pseudo double special weapons.

The downside is the cost, and the half range if you use it, but the upside is the better matching of weapons. It still gives the player the option not to take it and combat squad the heavy and special weapons seperately, or forego the heavy altogether for a budget.

I'd also like the heavy flamer to be made available, but I'm totally not biased because I'm a Salamanders fan.

If anything I would say give the squad the option to include an additional power weapon as well as the sgt so each squad can take 2 power weapons but not give them anything like thunder hammers or pf

 Lobukia wrote:
Only thing I'd want is the same upgrade that CSM get (the extra CCW) for 2 points per model (gotta let the CSM have it better).

ATSKNF. POTMS. Combat squads. All for free. Yeah, CSM have it better...

Give them a CCW for 1pt and i woud be SOOOOOOOO Flippin' Happy

I actually think TAC squads are pretty cool on their own. but CCW options would be nice.

Just take the Cachodon Chapter Tactics and use their CCW options.

Really, you already have these options in the Forgeworld Chapter Tactic Lists.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/FWchaptertactics.pdf

 anyeri wrote:

 Aijec wrote:
They are one of the better troops in the game, combat squad is good enough of a special ability.

If you want to charge an enemy you're going to win combat anways, doubling your shots won't make TOO big a difference.

I bet in a lot of cases you'd NOT want the extra firepower because you'd prefer combat to resolve at the end of their assault phase.

I dont think that cahrge with tac marines its a good idea, they suposse to be good at the long mid range, not the close combat, they have some edge on the cc, yes beacuse of the 3+ sv and streght 4, but apart from that, i dont thinks it is a good idea to charge.

The idea is charging on something you know you're going to win combat against. Three Termagants still alive and you want that kill point? Charge!

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Just take the Cachodon Chapter Tactics and use their CCW options.

Really, you already have these options in the Forgeworld Chapter Tactic Lists.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/F/FWchaptertactics.pdf

I don't think it should be necessary to rely on a chapter tactics to do that, since tactical marines should be tacticaly flexible in what they can do by default.

Stop giving other armies cheaper units that gak all over more expensive MEQ. There, problem solved.

I do believe Tactical Marines deserve something. The new fluff says they're the almost-but-not-quite veterans, having graduated from being Scouts, to bolter-Devastators, to heavy weapon Devastators, to Assault Marines, and finally to Tactical Marines. All tacticals do for you is deliver a special weapon and a heavy weapon, but that should not be the defining purpose of the unit. Taking objectives, sure, but that's what all Troops do. Personally, I feel the best way to boost them a bit is give them some sort of shooting bonus. But what?
I think the Horus Heresy rules nailed it with the Fury of the Legion rule: if you didn't move this turn, you can shoot twice with bolters at the expense of giving up your next turn of shooting.

Just make them Ultramarines. Problem solved!

 deadmeat85 wrote:
Give them a CCW for 1pt and i woud be SOOOOOOOO Flippin' Happy

You can already do this. Carcharodons Astra Chapter Tactics allows them to do this precise thing. AND gives them Fear for free to boot.

And on a personal note, they already seem pretty flexible to me. The tactical squad does passably well in melee. They don't excel, but they don't excel at shooting either. They form a reliable meatshield for the sergeant and the special weapon that he should have. Couple that with a decent WS, decent S, T, and armor save, plus the grenades they need to tackle most vehicles in assault, and the tactical marine is a pretty comprehensive 'average' unit.

thats it though, hybrids always fail in the face of more specialized, UNLESS they are, man for man, stronger overall.

10 CSM w/ CCW+ bolt pistol and mark of khorne w/ Icon of wrath, (about the same cost as a tac squad kitted with some special weapons) will lose 2-4 guys from double tap from the squad, then at best 1 from overwatch, then proceed to wipe the floor with the tac squad.

a dire avenger unit will keep out of the 12" threat range and easily out run AND out shoot a tac squad.

the problem is the generalist has to be OP (when compared in a point for point, man for man, or what have you) in a the actual game, (not a vaccum). if the generalist cannot be strong enough in the area the specialist unit is weak in, (or, even make use of that weakness) then there is a large problem, and they become less than average.

Tac marines are troops. Troops are for scoring. Tac marines, however aren't very good at that. Both in their ability to hold objectives & take objectives. This is due to the absurd upshot in the amount of MCs & ap3+, as it concerns holding objectives. When it comes to taking objs tac sqds don't have enough attacks, special wpns or assault weapons.

My suggestion is special ability's. There are Warlord traits that I think would be just right for the galaxy's finest. I'd say give tac squads Target Priority, but let it also apply to assault. For durability I'd say Tenacity. This would make Tac marines good at their primary role. As to conferring these rules to ICs that join them, I'm on the fence. Leaning toward yes.