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the grey knights do not actually 'exsist' .. so in fact they just killed a few fanatics .. and nothing more.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Education, for one.
I mean, you're basically taking someone who grew up in some 15th century farm and try to turn them into an operative who can utilise "modern" technology (and not just the lasgun which gets tossed to any feral world IG) and, perhaps more importantly, separate fact from fiction.
Fenris' population is, from all I've read, heavily steeped in superstition, and I'd say this is a very bad basis for someone who is supposed to employ scientific methods in the pursuit of their duties.
The bias, the lack of even the most basic skills, ... what actually is it that anyone could see in someone from Fenris to make them an Inquisitor? The kind of authority that comes with the title is hilariously dangerous in the hands of a medieval nutjob who grew up thinking Space Marines are "sky warriors riding on steeds of flame" (codex quote btw).

You are aware that Fenris employs its own armed forces? That use modern technologies? That are drawn from the population? Right?

Their superstition is just another way of worshipping the Emperor/Allfather. Which the Ecclesiarchy is pretty tolerant of.

Lack of what basic skills, pray tell?

Apart from Chapter Serfs I was not aware that Fenris had a pdf or other "modern" fighting force - I thought that whole point was that like a lot of Deathworld or feral recruitment worlds its left fallow to get the best kind of recruits for the Chapter?

Being "primitive" is not an issue for Astartes they just train you along with the fighting skills you need.

A real life equivalent would be Constantinople. Famed for its massive defences, it was besieged on numerous occasions by armies outnumbering the defenders 100 to 1, and it was taken only in 1204 by the army of the Fourth Crusade, and only by treason. This army was supposed to be there to help them, and they invited them inside the walls. I think this is the only way Fenris can be taken in the setting: by treason.

As others have said - planet cracking or better weapons exist - Fenris is not dead because GW don't want it dead. Also the Moslems took Constantinople after a siege IIRC - it was a shadow of its former self but still...........

Getting sulky about space vikings being in a universe that also has naughty fairies, goblins that grow from seeds et al might seem a little inconsistent to some

The Imperium hope they finally go renegade and join Chaos, so that their incredible team-killing capacity can be put to use against the arch enemy.

The factions of the Ecclesarchy and Inquisition who want to humble or destroy the Space Wolves are still not willing to go full bore at them because they would be declaring war on a first founding chapter. This is the sort of action that can divide the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition further and has a dangerous possibility of unifying the other first founding chapters against them.

Think about the original founding Loyalist chapters that remain. All of them hold a similar view of the Emperor that the Space Wolves do. Same with most of the subsequent foundings (Black Templars being the notable exceptions). If not following the beliefs laid out by the Ecclesiarchy is grounds to destroy a chapter, then about 99% of the Marine chapters could be subject to being attacked and killed by the Ecclesarchy and Inquisition at any moment.

In particular, the Dark Angels, the Iron Hands, the Salamanders and the White Scars could easily be branded heretics and destroyed with the same logic that is used to attack the Space Wolves.

If, instead the Space Wolves are attacked because of genetic deviancy and mutation, well the Blood Angels and the Salamanders are obvious targets here. Also, interestingly enough, the Imperial Fists and their successors have a major mutation compared to the normal Space Marine (missing one or more special organs or glands). Suddenly even the ultra religious Black Templars could be rounded up and killed.

If treason is the reason for attacking the Space Wolves, well the Blood Angels and their successors are documented as attacking Imperium Forces and the Dark Angels and their successors are known for suddenly abandoning Imperium comerades in the midst of battle. The close ties between the Mechanum and the Iron Hands cast doubt on their loyalty as well.

So no, until they can find an adequate proof to make the other chapters plus the more moderate members of the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition feel that the extermination of the Space Wolves is justified and legitimate rather than petty revenge it is too dangerous to move against the Space Wolves at any level which can't be explained away as an over zealous investigation of troubling reports.

Just remember, Horus wasn't the last to lead an army of Space Marines to Terra.

Jefffar wrote:


Just remember, Horus wasn't the last to lead an army of Space Marines to Terra.

He did however have hundreds of thousands of Space Marines with him and billions of human troops and warmachines, half the Imperial Navy and Mechanicus, along with entire armies of Daemons, quite a bit more than a single chapter can muster

Yes, but last time Marines marched on Earth, it was many chapters and unlike when Horus did it, they succeeded in their aims.

Yea, during the aftermath of the Beheading, the Ultramarines chapter master of the time did a darn good job of marching on Terra with a truck ton of Marine chapters in tow. Although admittingly it was a bit hard for Terra to respond since it didn't have any leadership, what with them all being... you know, beheaded and what-not.

...not that I think such a thing would happen if the Space Wolves were declared traitors. There would be a whole slew of other problems reverberating through the Imperium, though, in that case.

1 Simple Reason

Offing a first founding chapter is a step to far.

To many in the empire would not stand for it.

There is a limit to even the powers of the inquisition.

I think the Dark Angels and Blood Angels have done more directly treasonous actions (even if not voluntary in the Blood Angels' case) than the Space Wolves anyways. The majority of the time Space Wolves have come to blows with other Imperial factions, it was in self-defense (even Armeggeddon either didn't have any proven blows if you don't take the novel into account, or the Space Wolves were fired on first if you do)

Because GW wants them to live because:

A) Plot.
B) For some odd reason, people seem to like them. Ergo, they sell models.

But your canon can be what it wants. For instance, in my canon they're on the brink of being hunted down.

The thing is, the Inquisition and SoB are just as at much risk from any attack on a space marine chapter as the chapter. The Astras do not answer to the IQ. Any questioning of a chapter without hard proof, and enough proof for most loyal SM chapters to believe, will result in a political game of "He said She said".

IF someone managed to find concrete proof of wrongdoing on the part of the SW they might be able to act, but until they do that they are likely to be signing there own death warrant. The Astras ultimately answer only to the emperor. Theoretically they don't even answer to the high lords of Terra. They certainly don't answer to an Inquisitor, no matter how powerful. It is, however, a very delicate relationship. A bit like nuclear nations. Both have the power to destroy the other if needed, which is why an Inquisitor can ask a chapter to help, and the chapter would be well within there rights to say no, but equally they would be taking a big risk by doing so. Equally the inquisition keep trying to investigate allot of the chapters and basically getting told to go away. They are left with nothing they can do unless they want to accuse them of being heretics or renegade with no evidence.

 Steve steveson wrote:
The thing is, the Inquisition and SoB are just as at much risk from any attack on a space marine chapter as the chapter. The Astras do not answer to the IQ.

Only the Custodes are beyond the purview and writ of conscription of the Inquisition. Space Marines often can get away with refusal as a single Inquisitor may not have the means to force an SM chapter, but certainly there have been Chapters who have refused the Inquisition to their ultimate regret.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

I don´t think it is "plot armour", it is just that Fenris is one of the most powerful strongholds of the Imperium. A real life equivalent would be Constantinople. Famed for its massive defenses, it was besieged on numerous occasions by armies outnumbering the defenders 100 to 1, and it was taken only in 1204 by the army of the Fourth Crusade, and only by treason. This army was supposed to be there to help them, and they invited them inside the walls. I think this is the only way Fenris can be taken in the setting: by treason.

Problem is back then they didn't have Exterminatus bombs, Virus Bombs, or large amounts of ship to ships that outnumber Fenris. Fenris isn't exactly Ultramar with a vast force.

 Mr Morden wrote:

A real life equivalent would be Constantinople. Famed for its massive defences, it was besieged on numerous occasions by armies outnumbering the defenders 100 to 1, and it was taken only in 1204 by the army of the Fourth Crusade, and only by treason. This army was supposed to be there to help them, and they invited them inside the walls. I think this is the only way Fenris can be taken in the setting: by treason.

As others have said - planet cracking or better weapons exist - Fenris is not dead because GW don't want it dead. Also the Moslems took Constantinople after a siege IIRC - it was a shadow of its former self but still...........

I disagree.

We know of the existence of defenses against such attacks. Void shields to begin with. There is a reason why you eventually need your marines to go down and kill your enemy face-to-face.

Some examples that come into my mind:
1) Tallarn. The Iron Warriors started the battle with an exterminatus with Virus Bombs. But the enemy army survived.
2) Fenris itself. The Inquisition bombarded Fenris and didn´t make a scratch. It was said that most of the damages were caused by the battleships the wolves took down, falling right into Fenris.
3) Battle of Terra: after an intense bombarding, Horus´ forces needed to go down and get face-to-face with the enemy
4) Isstvan III: the battle starts with an attack that set the whole planet on fire, destroying everything in its surface… except the military forces, hiding in bunkers.

It all comes to the "interpretation of the fluff" problem:
-> The background says: Fenris is impregnable.
-> The background says: in one occasion, an inquisitorial fleet bombarded the place with everything they had, and did nothing. Virus bombs, nuclear attacks, laser beams, whatever stuff they invented in 40000 years of warfare. They did nothing. And then they crashed a Battleship into the place, and did almost nothing.
--> Me: oh my... What an amazing defensive technology they have in the 41st millennium.
--> Many people: I think the technology is more or less the same we have today. This must be plot armour.
I respect that opinion, and I know is held by many people. I just don´t share it.

@Mr Morden: regarding planet cracking weapons.
Look at the Dark Angels. The Rock was their fortress. The planet was destroyed. And? The fortress itself endured.

The answer is pretty simple: because SW are that badass.

Just that. No one want to fight the SW, and the inquisition have no interest in destroying them. They are far more usefull as rabid dogs who could be direct tham they would be if they where just dead.

Also, they are badass...

The Space Wolves, as a first founding chapter, and one of the most powerful and respected above that, hold vast amounts of political power.
Destroying a first founding chapter will most likely upset many of the Astartes. The Space Wolves have too many supporters to be removed. Even in the 'Months of Shame' after the 1st Armageddon war, many in the Inquisition and the Grey Knights sided with the Space Wolves.
And there is also the fact that all assaults so far on Fenris have failed miserably. Destroying the Space Wolves will require massive resources which have to be pulled away from other war zones.
And for what reason? The Space Wolves are very loyal to the Emperor and are a very effective fighting force. Why would the High Lords want to destroy such an valueble asset?

The Astartes are also an independent institution of the Imperium. They can tell other institutions to f*ck off and get away with it. The Ecclesiarchy holds no authority over them at all, and the authority of even the Inquisition is rather limited over a first founding chapter. The 'Excommunicate Traitoris' order would have to come from the High Lords themselves, and I fail to see even a single reason why they would do that.
Just because they pissed off the Inquisition? I don't think so. They are far from the only chapter that pissed off the Inquisition.
I also fail to see why killing a few Grey Knights is such a big deal. The Grey Knights are nothing more than the Ordo Malleus' henchmen after all. They have no further connection to the High Lords.
The Dark Angels, Black Templars and Iron Hands to name a few, have also killed (or rather made dissapear) their fair share of inquisitors. The more powerful chapters don't really take kindly to the Inquisition nosing around in their (shady) business and they also have the power to defy the Inquisition.

Simply put: The Space Wolves are too powerful for the Inquisition to take direct action against.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Education, for one.
I mean, you're basically taking someone who grew up in some 15th century farm and try to turn them into an operative who can utilise "modern" technology (and not just the lasgun which gets tossed to any feral world IG) and, perhaps more importantly, separate fact from fiction.
Fenris' population is, from all I've read, heavily steeped in superstition, and I'd say this is a very bad basis for someone who is supposed to employ scientific methods in the pursuit of their duties.
The bias, the lack of even the most basic skills, ... what actually is it that anyone could see in someone from Fenris to make them an Inquisitor? The kind of authority that comes with the title is hilariously dangerous in the hands of a medieval nutjob who grew up thinking Space Marines are "sky warriors riding on steeds of flame" (codex quote btw).

You are aware that Fenris employs its own armed forces? That use modern technologies? That are drawn from the population? Right?

Their superstition is just another way of worshipping the Emperor/Allfather. Which the Ecclesiarchy is pretty tolerant of.

Lack of what basic skills, pray tell?

Ah... no it doesn't. Outside of any Chapter Serfs or soldiers that live in The Fang, Fenris is incapable of supporting anything like a modern PDF or Guard Regiment. The surface of the planet is tectonically unstable, and sinks into the sea every few years while new islands rise up. The various villages fish, grow food, and raid one another. They live like fictional Vikings of the Dark Ages.

The 'Excommunicate Traitoris' order would have to come from the High Lords themselves, and I fail to see even a single reason why they would do that.

Because their idiocy at Armageddon cost the Imperium half a dozen worlds. The Imperium *cannot* allow the taint of Chaos to spread, which is what the Space Wolves had a direct hand in permitting.

Probably the biggest reason the Space Wolves still live is that they're low priority. Why bother taking out a mildly offensive Space Marine chapter (that also happens to have thousands of years of loyal service, founding legion, tank named after primarch, etc) when there are Tyranids and Orks and Necrons around? What's a more efficient expenditure of resources? The big planetkilling fleets don't assemble unless for a hugely significant threat, like a Black Crusade. The spare resources required to destroy the Space Wolves just don't exist.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
The Space Wolves, as a first founding chapter, and one of the most powerful and respected above that, hold vast amounts of political power.

With all those institutions they've managed to alienate?

Destroying a first founding chapter will most likely upset many of the Astartes.

Many of whom dislike or have zero association with the SW's or see them as rabid dogs. Most wouldn't miss the SW's.

And there is also the fact that all assaults so far on Fenris have failed miserably.

Largely due to either plot armor (either having one character do something ridiculous or the story just says "they win" without much detail) or facing extremely small enemy forces. The Inquisitor Kysnaros story is a great example of the former. They've got GK vessels, an entire chapter of Red Hunters, numerous Inquisitorial vessels, and the story basically just says that the SW fleet shows up and wins and that Grimnar just magically teleports to the Inquistor and kills him.

And for what reason? The Space Wolves are very loyal to the Emperor and are a very effective fighting force. Why would the High Lords want to destroy such an valueble asset?

because they've shown they can and will attack other Imperial forces, they aren't controllable, and that the SW's are more interested in maintaining their independent fiefdom than serving the High Lords of Terra and other major Imperial institutions?

The Astartes are also an independent institution of the Imperium. They can tell other institutions to f*ck off and get away with it. The Ecclesiarchy holds no authority over them at all, and the authority of even the Inquisition is rather limited over a first founding chapter. The 'Excommunicate Traitoris' order would have to come from the High Lords themselves, and I fail to see even a single reason why they would do that.

Because many of the High Lords don't see value in the SW's as you have described them? Because most susbscribe to the Ecclesiarchy's Imperial Creed which the Space Wolves had violently denied? Because they've warred with other great institutions of the Imperium?

Just because they pissed off the Inquisition? I don't think so. They are far from the only chapter that pissed off the Inquisition.

And many a chapter has come to regret such

I also fail to see why killing a few Grey Knights is such a big deal. The Grey Knights are nothing more than the Ordo Malleus' henchmen after all. They have no further connection to the High Lords.

they're not just the Inquisiton's henchmen, they can and do do they're own things. However, yes, they are a purpose created chapter that do work closely with the Inquisition, with the most powerful equipment and weapons and the best recruits the Imperium has, are located in the Sol system, are often used to destroy other SM chapters, are the keepers of much of the most dangerous knowledge and objects ever encountered, and the Inquisition has a seat amongst the High Lords. This is why killing Grey Knights is a big deal.

The Dark Angels, Black Templars and Iron Hands to name a few, have also killed (or rather made dissapear) their fair share of inquisitors. The more powerful chapters don't really take kindly to the Inquisition nosing around in their (shady) business and they also have the power to defy the Inquisition.

Note that they generally are more subtle about it

Simply put: The Space Wolves are too powerful for the Inquisition to take direct action against.

The Inquisition can do anything it wants. Individual Inquisitors may be limited, but the only people beyond the Inquisition, if it truly brings its weight to bear, is the Emperor and his Custodes.

Ultimately, there's a couple thousand Space Wolves with a few thousand Thralls and a big fortress. The Imperium fights and wins larger wars all the time. The only conceivable thing saving the SW's is the fact there's bigger fish to fry or they just haven't quite honked off the right people yet

da001 wrote:It all comes to the "interpretation of the fluff" problem:
-> The background says: Fenris is impregnable.
-> The background says: in one occasion, an inquisitorial fleet bombarded the place with everything they had, and did nothing. Virus bombs, nuclear attacks, laser beams, whatever stuff they invented in 40000 years of warfare. They did nothing. And then they crashed a Battleship into the place, and did almost nothing.
--> Me: oh my... What an amazing defensive technology they have in the 41st millennium.
--> Many people: I think the technology is more or less the same we have today. This must be plot armour.
I respect that opinion, and I know is held by many people. I just don´t share it.

I don't think people are as much opposed to the nigh-miraculous impenetrability of the various famous fortresses, but that the Imperium is apparently unwilling to even try. The only real attempt at large scale warfare to dislodge the SW was Bucharis' assault that saw millions of Imperial Guardsmen lay waste to Fenris for three entire years - and if you think that this is not plot armour of the worst kind, then I don't know what to say (I don't usually link to Lexicanum, but in this case it's a 1:1 Codex quote).

Giant fortresses and ways to break them are nothing new for the Imperium, and there are forces specialised for this job. Alternatively, even assuming that the SW are that "badass" that there is no way in hell that any sort of ground assault including Titans would have a chance at killing them off, the IoM could simply destroy any and all SW starships and cordon off the world, destroying their interstellar mobility before proceeding to bombard the surface. Let's see how long a Chapter manages to survive without food and raw materials, or without new recruits.
The range of Exterminatus munitions also leaves a lot of options, ranging from cyclonic torpedoes that turn the entire planet into a barren wasteland in a storm of fire, to macromelta charges shattering a world into bits. And if the Fang survives even that, just keep shooting at it. Or withdraw and leave the crippled Chapter to its fate.

That is how I assume the IoM would deal with the situation in any other case. But, for better or worse (depending on personal preferences and interpretation), the SW retain their "get out of jail free" card, and so no harm will come to them. This would be less of an issue if various writers would just stop letting them push the line. But at this point, I suppose one could say it's too late for even that, and that the milk is already spilt.

 j31c3n wrote:
Probably the biggest reason the Space Wolves still live is that they're low priority. Why bother taking out a mildly offensive Space Marine chapter (that also happens to have thousands of years of loyal service, founding legion, tank named after primarch, etc) when there are Tyranids and Orks and Necrons around? What's a more efficient expenditure of resources? The big planetkilling fleets don't assemble unless for a hugely significant threat, like a Black Crusade. The spare resources required to destroy the Space Wolves just don't exist.

This sums it up nicely. The Space Wolves still fight for the IoM and the Emperor, so as long as the damage they cause to the IoM is minor compared to what happens to the enemies of the IoM no one in his right mind will spend the Emperor's resources on stamping them out. As mentioned even in the Armageddon incident many inquisitors were of the opinion that the commanding inquisitor would serve the Emperor better by quietly getting assassinated. Not necessarily because any of them love the SW but because they don't let some childish pissing contest goad them into spending good troops on a bad idea when there's so much better things to spend them on.

... except the "Armageddon Incident" was not a bad idea. You had thousands of soldiers exposed to Chaos and Warp Taint. SOP is to have these people exterminated, lest one carry the taint of Chaos to another world.

The SW got involved and some of the vessels carrying these people achieved a Warp jump, traveling to other Imperial Worlds. As the risk of Chaos to these worlds is too great, they were destroyed.

All because the Space Wolves are too damn stupid to understand how Chaos works.

Uh, Grey Knights aren't used for paltry tasks like purging Space Marine chapters, they've got far more important things to be doing.

That role falls to the Adepta Sororitas and the other Space Marine chapters, like the Fire Hawks (who were wiped out in a warp storm on their way to purge the Astral Claws).

Three Orders of Adepta Sororitas were wiped out when they went to investigate Fenris. Since there are only six Major Orders, and we still have six Major Orders, these three must have been Orders Minoris. Therefore, each one probably had less than a thousand Sisters in it.

Three thousand Sisters vs what, two Great Companies of Space Wolves? The Ecclesiarchy forces would barely have outnumbered the Marines, who then also had the advantage of home ground and defended positions, not to mention living on freaking Fenris, the single most dangerous habitable world in the entire Imperium.



Exterminatus? On Fenris? It wouldn't work. Cylconic Torpedoes would just cause the vulcanism to increase a bit for a short while, and the cold would stop any virus attack dead in its tracks. Macro-melta charges? Same issue as Cyclonics.


On the other hand, if you're going to wipe out any First Founding Chapter, the Space Wolves would be the ones to go for. Unlike all the other FFCs, all they have is their twelve Great Companies, whereas, say, the Blood Angels could call on... lets see... Flesh Tearers, Mortifactors, Crimson Angels, Angels Encarmine, Knights of Blood... well, lets just say more than twelve great companies worth of Successor Chapters who all feel very loyal to their primogenitor chapter.

Mess with the Wolves, you pick on the largest non-Guard fighting force in the Imperium (BTs are not a single fighting force). Mess with the Blood Angels, or worse the Ultramarines? You're picking on hundreds of different armies who all suddenly do not like you.


It's a stated fact that the Navy can bring far more firepower to a fight than the Astartes - Battle Barges are not fighting ships, and tonne for tonne are no match for a Battlecruiser group.

The Wolves are cold and alone on their frozen rock, and the only thing protecting them from being wiped out by a concerted purge force is the sheer number of other threats in the galaxy. So far, the Wolves are just a bunch of team-killing wazzocks. The moment they deliberately turn their guns on a world the Imperium is willing to admit exists... oh, boy. And that's why the Wolves never do more than flip the bird at anyone. They do just enough to prove that they're tough badasses without actually daring to cross the line.

While I agree with most of your other points, this one seems odd

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Exterminatus? On Fenris? It wouldn't work. Cylconic Torpedoes would just cause the vulcanism to increase a bit for a short while, and the cold would stop any virus attack dead in its tracks. Macro-melta charges? Same issue as Cyclonics.

When has cold made any difference to the Exterminatus viruses? Likewise, why would Cyclonic torpedoes have such little effect? Certainly if they can blow atmosphere into space and crack the crust of other worlds, Fenris shouldn't be any different?

It's because the only stable land-mass on the entire planet is The Fang. Everything else is an iceberg (basically), so the Cyclonics don't actually hit anything that they can destabilize.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's because the only stable land-mass on the entire planet is The Fang. Everything else is an iceberg (basically), so the Cyclonics don't actually hit anything that they can destabilize.

If the oceans are shallow enough that new landmasses are created all the time, I'd assume that torpedoes would be able to penetrate that. Otherwise water planets apparently are immune to Exterminatus, which seems silly. I'd imagine if nothing else they could just launch salvos at the landmass around the Fang.

It's not. The oceans are so deep that huge-ass Tyranid-squid-monsters, called Kraken, live in them, and the landmass around the Fang is protected by the Fang and its void-shields. Also, the Fang juts into the lower reaches of Fenris' orbital rings, so it would be able to return fire, directly, against incoming vessels.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's not. The oceans are so deep that huge-ass Tyranid-squid-monsters, called Kraken, live in them, and the landmass around the Fang is protected by the Fang and its void-shields. Also, the Fang juts into the lower reaches of Fenris' orbital rings, so it would be able to return fire, directly, against incoming vessels.

So basically, it's plot armor, because Void Shields go down pretty easily at times.

Yes.

Sorry if I gave the impression that it was not plot-armor that was keeping the Space Wolves alive, because it most certainly is, and I even happen to kind of like the Space Wolves, I just think the writers have done them no favors, and they *should* wipe them out to demonstrate how things work in the Imperium, but of course they won't.

 Psienesis wrote:
It's not. The oceans are so deep that huge-ass Tyranid-squid-monsters, called Kraken, live in them, and the landmass around the Fang is protected by the Fang and its void-shields.

Void shields can be brought down though, and the ocean would not be so deep *everywhere* I would think.

Also, the Fang juts into the lower reaches of Fenris' orbital rings, so it would be able to return fire, directly, against incoming vessels.

Missiles can be fired from a very, very long way off, letting inertia do 99.999% of the work. Hell they could fire them from behind a moon . The GK/Red Hunters/INQ fleet seemed to be able to overpower the Fang in their assault, so it's not like that alone would stop a determined Exterminatus attempt. Also, I seem to remember Exterminatus often being carried out by strike craft which are very difficult to detect, either from the Inquisition war trilogy or one of the Iron Hands novels.

edit: ninja'd