Reecius Is Right - 40K Is Officially "Busted"

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**crazyredpraetorian**

Oaka wrote:
So winning a 40K tournament is equivalent to winning Duck, Duck, Goose? No wonder all the good players left to play something else that actually requires skill and not a D6 roll.

When did ALL of the good players leave? I guess I missed that?

**tomjoad**

crazyredpraetorian wrote:
Oaka wrote:
So winning a 40K tournament is equivalent to winning Duck, Duck, Goose? No wonder all the good players left to play something else that actually requires skill and not a D6 roll.

When did ALL of the good players leave? I guess I missed that?

The idea that the games aren't routinely won by the more skilled players is ridiculous to begin with. Just a troll.

**whembly**

kronk wrote:
Most of the talk here has been about Escalation and it's effects on Tournaments, pick up games at the store, and playing at home with Grandma. (And rightfully so. Grandma cheats. She's terrible about line of sight calls and makes me roll off for everything! "No Grandma! You can't deepstrike your Daemon Prince into my Bastion! I don't care how much of it's capacity is unoccupied!")

However, I just finished perusing Stronghold Assault, and am seeing a number of issues or concerns.

*AV15 buildings. (This is news to me, but maybe you guys know about it) There are two in the book: Macro-Cannon Aquila Stronghold (the eagle shlong building), and Vortex Missile Aquila Strongpoint.
* Vortex Missiles It's like D weapons, but Ordinance, unlimited range, and they're hidden in the aforementioned AV 15 building. (Never typed out aforementioned before. Hooked on Phonics Score!)
* Uh, maybe Grandma CAN deepstrike that Daemon into my bastion! The book talks about certain units that may or may not deploy into buildings from reserve if they have teleportation, or they can tunnel. Maybe. If you agree with your opponent before the game what he can or can't do with his 634 point Deathstar Unit carrying his Warlord when it comes to your 500+ point Macro-Cannon Aquila Strongpoint where I'm hiding my Warlord and his retinue...
*How big is the freaking Void Shield Generator Building? You can't even show us a mock-up of one? The damn thing has a 12" bubble around it! Is it bigger than a a Bastion? A Rhino? A breadbox? (I've never actually seen a breadbox, so why do people compare stuff to it?) It's not that many points, so it's probably not Skyshield Landing Pad sized, right?

Edit: Stupid spelling....

AV15 buildings! o.O

Whoa.

Time to bring out my Dark Eldar Dark Lance spam and Haywyches.

**H.B.M.C.**

kronk wrote:
Outside of the four points above, I REALLY like the Stronghold Assault book, to be perfectly honest. I'd like to play some of the missions in the back (either defender or attacker) Sons of Dorn!

I got my copy today, and it's a lovely book. It's problems though aren't really it's problems, they're problems that have attached themselves to the book. Strength D is the problem, not the Aquila Strongpoint itself.

**PhantomViper**

tomjoad wrote:
crazyredpraetorian wrote:
Oaka wrote:
So winning a 40K tournament is equivalent to winning Duck, Duck, Goose? No wonder all the good players left to play something else that actually requires skill and not a D6 roll.

When did ALL of the good players leave? I guess I missed that?

The idea that the games aren't routinely won by the more skilled players is ridiculous to begin with. Just a troll.

If 40k required any actual skill to play, the tournaments wouldn't be dominated by the same list combinations.

In a game with the staggering amount of random rolls that 40k currently has and the blatant min-maxing that can be achieved, player skill has a minimal impact at best in the final result of the game.

**Sarouan**

H.B.M.C. wrote:

I got my copy today, and it's a lovely book. It's problems though aren't really it's problems, they're problems that have attached themselves to the book. Strength D is the problem, not the Aquila Strongpoint itself.

Well, it's just a copy-paste from the Apocalypse Book. To be honest, AV 15 makes it the best building ever to hide your unit inside. Strength D is one of the only things that can actually destroy it.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Sarouan wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

I got my copy today, and it's a lovely book. It's problems though aren't really it's problems, they're problems that have attached themselves to the book. Strength D is the problem, not the Aquila Strongpoint itself.

Well, it's just a copy-paste from the Apocalypse Book. To be honest, AV 15 makes it the best building ever to hide your unit inside. Strength D is one of the only things that can actually destroy it.

Not quite. 2d6 pen and S9+ can still do it, and those are quite common. I also think you can use Entropic Strike on buildings. I could be wrong though.
It's tough, but not that tough.

**Sarouan**

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Not quite. 2d6 pen and S9+ can still do it, and those are quite common. I also think you can use Entropic Strike on buildings. I could be wrong though.
It's tough, but not that tough.

You need to do penetrating hits to actually have a small chance to destroy a building. S9 will only make a glancing hit, and that means killing one hapless trooper in the building. That's all.

S10 weapons are actually not that common, and even them will need a 6 on the pen roll. Of course, armorbane weapons are more useful...still, even S8 2D6 pen will need at least a 8+ on the 2D6 to really mean something dangerous for the building. Otherwise, it will not harm it at all.

So it's the opposite. AV15 building is quite sturdy. It's even more annoying when the big weapon attached to it can't be targeted - meaning as long the building is standing, it can be used.

**CthuluIsSpy**

Sarouan wrote:
CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Not quite. 2d6 pen and S9+ can still do it, and those are quite common. I also think you can use Entropic Strike on buildings. I could be wrong though.
It's tough, but not that tough.

You need to do penetrating hits to actually have a small chance to destroy a building. S9 will only make a glancing hit, and that means killing one hapless trooper in the building. That's all.

S10 weapons are actually not that common, and even them will need a 6 on the pen roll. Of course, armorbane weapons are more useful...still, even S8 2D6 pen will need at least a 8+ on the 2D6 to really mean something dangerous for the building. Otherwise, it will not harm it at all.

So it's the opposite. AV15 building is quite sturdy. It's even more annoying when the big weapon attached to it can't be targeted - meaning as long the building is standing, it can be used.

Gah, I can't count. Yes, S9 can't wreck a building. S8+2d6 on the otherhand, is quite common, and 8 on 2d6 isn't that hard. Eldar will certainly not care about AV15 due to their lances.

**Sarouan**

Eldars use a lot of lances, nowadays?

And yeah, S8 2D6 can be quite common. You just have to roll that 8+ on the dices. It's not that easy to do, since there is a reason Ld8 is said to be "fine enough".

Of course, when you have a big Strength D weapon with ridiculous range on top of it, it's not that hard to point it right at the units that can damage it. But those are details.

I don't remember if the Aquila strongpoints still kept all those rules from Apocalypse. If they do...well, there will be even less weapons able to destroy them, actually.

Nah, I'm sure GW thought about it. Don't shatter my last illusions, please.

**WarlordRob117**

orks need lance weapons that get hot... would make sense and it would deal with this armor 14+ problem... course we could just drive into it deff-rolla style lmao

**Farseer Faenyin**

Swastakowey wrote:
InventionThirteen wrote:
I've had no end to terrible once sided battles since the start of sixth and the rise of some seriously rubbish rules writing. (6th ed works but the codexes are getting beyond help). These new escalation rules are the icing on the cake for me. This game needs some serious attention and someone needs to throw out the game design team bar Phil kelly and a few select others. Matt ward not included. He can go.

I'd have to agree. 6th edition was awesome when it came out, so many cool rules and so on. But then all these new codices came out and it all started to go downhill. The codices really bring out the flaws in the rules.

I felt it was more busted at the beginning where the Necron lists were so unbearable with some armies having zero access to AA except for Aegis lines. This edition has been pretty FUBAR from the beginning, IMO. To be honest, with Escalation and Stronghold added in....more armies can compete than others but less 'players' can compete because of the cost to keep up.

**RobPro**

PhantomViper wrote:
tomjoad wrote:
crazyredpraetorian wrote:
Oaka wrote:
So winning a 40K tournament is equivalent to winning Duck, Duck, Goose? No wonder all the good players left to play something else that actually requires skill and not a D6 roll.

When did ALL of the good players leave? I guess I missed that?

The idea that the games aren't routinely won by the more skilled players is ridiculous to begin with. Just a troll.

If 40k required any actual skill to play, the tournaments wouldn't be dominated by the same list combinations.

In a game with the staggering amount of random rolls that 40k currently has and the blatant min-maxing that can be achieved, player skill has a minimal impact at best in the final result of the game.

You do realize the contradictions here, right? If 40k took no skill, then you would see tons of different people winning events even if they all had the same lists. That you see the same people winning regardless of the list they run, and that you see people with top liists in lower brackets because the player skill may not be as high, should be enough of an indicator. Look at chess, everybody brings the same army to the table except one player goes first and nobody complains it lacks skill. In warhammer we have the luxury of not being required to play the mirror match every game.

How is strength d killing a unit different than say two missile side units teaming up to kill anything? Except for against 2+ rerollable save units, 600 points of broadsides and missile drones do as much damage as 700+ points of titans (I don't think you can get d for less than that).

**Happygrunt**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
kronk wrote:
Outside of the four points above, I REALLY like the Stronghold Assault book, to be perfectly honest. I'd like to play some of the missions in the back (either defender or attacker) Sons of Dorn!

I got my copy today, and it's a lovely book. It's problems though aren't really it's problems, they're problems that have attached themselves to the book. Strength D is the problem, not the Aquila Strongpoint itself.

I don't have my copy yet (Christmas is soon though

) But the way I see it, we are going to see the macro cannon/missiles as often as we see the FoR.

I.E. Probably banned for tournaments because they are WAY too big.

**stormboy97**

Just say no to D-WEAPONS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if it has a D or is a super-heavy, cant use it, easy.

But yes to fortifications.

You can buy void shields which fix the ignore cover thing the tau chip commander has going.

You can buy extra air-defense to balance out the necron flier army.

bunkers and large building to protect against all HTH hand rush armies if they cant hurt armor 14.

If people want to spend a ton of points on building, less troops on the board.

Network forts are what is going to save the game, treat a fort as a tank shock on a unit for terrain when setting it up. Move terrain the minimum distance to allow the placement of the fort. SIMPLE, VERY SIMPLE, NOT HARD, TAKES ONE SECOUND TO SET THEM UP.

**labmouse42**

Has anyone other than FLG tested out the new super heavies?

Has anyone tested things other than the reaver titan?

Would it not be as gross if you were unable to buff it?
Forewarding and Fortune is what really pushes the eldar titan completely over the top.

**Kirasu**

labmouse42 wrote:
Has anyone other than FLG tested out the new super heavies?

Has anyone tested things other than the reaver titan?

Would it not be as gross if you were unable to buff it?
Forewarding and Fortune is what really pushes the eldar titan completely over the top.

New? They're exactly the same as they've been and almost ALL the titans are the same as they've been in the last version of apoc.. You dont need to do much testing to know that Blast weapon + Strength D = everything touched dies.. So simply calculate how many models a blast can touch and thats how many it kills. (multiply by .86 for models with wounds)

If large blast can hit 5 models per shot, then revenant can kill 20 models per shot or more if clustered.. since the stock weapon for titans seems to be Large blast x2 Strength D then you can apply results to all other useful titans. Stompa has pointless weapons so hard to compare that.

**RobPro**

Except you have to roll to wound now, where you didn't before. Models with 3 wounds have a fair chance at surviving 1 strength d hit.

**jathomas2013**

Wow…so you’re shocked that something that is called a “Titan Killer” is able to kill a super heavy without sD easy? Seriously?! That’s like me saying I’m surprised that a SM Stormraven with TL Multi, TL Lascannon, and 4 concussive s8 ap2 missiles is able to kill a GK Raven that is equipped with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters…
C’mon, you guys know that some things are DESIGNED to kill other things and don’t complain about those(Wraithknight vs Daemon Prince anyone?), yet with something is called a “Titan Killer” and is described in the books as being amongst the most powerful weaponry in the galaxy you’re shocked that it kills a Soul Grinder…
It never ceases to amaze me how people are surprised at what sD does…it’s a Titan Killer…If it can kill a Titan it can kill anything…
Keep calm people gheez

**Savageconvoy**

jathomas2013 wrote:
Wow…so you’re shocked that something that is called a “Titan Killer” is able to kill a super heavy without sD easy? Seriously?! That’s like me saying I’m surprised that a SM Stormraven with TL Multi, TL Lascannon, and 4 concussive s8 ap2 missiles is able to kill a GK Raven that is equipped with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters…
C’mon, you guys know that some things are DESIGNED to kill other things and don’t complain about those(Wraithknight vs Daemon Prince anyone?), yet with something is called a “Titan Killer” and is described in the books as being amongst the most powerful weaponry in the galaxy you’re shocked that it kills a Soul Grinder…
It never ceases to amaze me how people are surprised at what sD does…it’s a Titan Killer…If it can kill a Titan it can kill anything…
Keep calm people gheez

Pretty sure you missed the entire point. The entire point is that it kills everything it hits with no defense what so ever. No invul saves, no FNP, nothing. It completely destroys vehicles on a 2+ and will either cripple or outright kill a MC.

So the more points and dollars you spend bringing tanks, MC like Riptides and Deamon Princes, or squads of elite infantry then you're just giving up more when it gets hit with a D template. It's because this can completely ruin the meta and will kill almost all variety in lists back to bringing MSU of deepstriking melta just to prepare for Titans.

DA already had limited lists, and now the Triple LR with the dakka banner would be completely useless since a single SD weapon could take it all out in one turn.

**Kirasu**

RobPro wrote:
Except you have to roll to wound now, where you didn't before. Models with 3 wounds have a fair chance at surviving 1 strength d hit.

Strength D hasnt changed since apoc 2013 came out, so escalation isn't anything new. Also, how many units of W3 models are there for that to matter? Yes, 3 wound models have a SLIGHTLY better chance of surviving than a 1W model but then you just murder everything else and it doesn't matter.

**Breng77**

jathomas2013 wrote:
Wow…so you’re shocked that something that is called a “Titan Killer” is able to kill a super heavy without sD easy? Seriously?! That’s like me saying I’m surprised that a SM Stormraven with TL Multi, TL Lascannon, and 4 concussive s8 ap2 missiles is able to kill a GK Raven that is equipped with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters…
C’mon, you guys know that some things are DESIGNED to kill other things and don’t complain about those(Wraithknight vs Daemon Prince anyone?), yet with something is called a “Titan Killer” and is described in the books as being amongst the most powerful weaponry in the galaxy you’re shocked that it kills a Soul Grinder…
It never ceases to amaze me how people are surprised at what sD does…it’s a Titan Killer…If it can kill a Titan it can kill anything…
Keep calm people gheez

I don't think anyone is surprised that something called Titan killer is strong....it is that it really has no place in a skirmish.

That is like saying we are going to play paint ball and I drop a Nuke on your team....

**labmouse42**

Kirasu wrote:
New? They're exactly the same as they've been and almost ALL the titans are the same as they've been in the last version of apoc.. You dont need to do much testing to know that Blast weapon + Strength D = everything touched dies..

Last I looked, apoc games were not played at 1500 points.
Not everything in the escallation book has STR D. That's why I asked "Has anyone tested things other than the reaver titan"
I get your frustration at GW. However, a knee jerk reaction is not what I'm asking here.

Has anyone else tried these rules in 1500 to 2000 point games? Are some not as over the top as others?

**Farseer Faenyin**

Thank goodness these people are crying foul on the D-weapons so we can go back to the greatness that is Screamerstar and Seerstar. Wait a minute....

P.S - Hard counter to D-weapons is flyers/FMCs. Easy to do. No reason to cry.

**Savageconvoy**

Did you miss the part in the video where the guy used FMC and they still all got grounded THEN killed?

**Kirasu**

I wasn't discussing non-strength D weapons because they don't really matter. Generally titans are overcosted and underpowered, so I am sure bad units like the Stompa are fine in escalation due to their cost vs effectiveness.

My responses, as you can see by reading them, are pretty much only about destroyer weapons and while yes, OTHER things in escalation may be balanced it simply doesn't matter because units that AREN'T fair are exactly the ones that will be taken.

If anything, the lower point value is MORE of a problem hence why you don't need to test. If something is OP at 5000 pts then it's gonna be even more OP at 1500 assuming you can field it.

I know Apoc very very well

**RobPro**

The only things that might be overpowered at 5000 points are the Reaver and the Phantom, which are not part of escalation.

**BaconUprising**

Haha phantom is SO broken. It would really kill the game if they stuck that in. To be fair a warhound kills a 3000 point game as I unfortunately found out.

**Kirasu**

RobPro wrote:
The only things that might be overpowered at 5000 points are the Reaver and the Phantom, which are not part of escalation.

Disagree, that only assumes you don't own 3 Revenants to match the Phantom. As a unit the cheaper titans are OP because I rather have 6 Pulsars than 2 bigger pulsars. Point for point the smaller titans with D weapons are vastly superior since it only takes a few more hits to kill a big titan with strength D and you got more shots.. so you win.

**BaconUprising**

Kirasu wrote:
RobPro wrote:
The only things that might be overpowered at 5000 points are the Reaver and the Phantom, which are not part of escalation.

Disagree, that only assumes you don't own 3 Revenants to match the Phantom. As a unit the cheaper titans are OP because I rather have 6 Pulsars than 2 bigger pulsars. Point for point the smaller titans with D weapons are vastly superior since it only takes a few more hits to kill a big titan with strength D and you got more shots.. so you win.

Yeah pretty much this unless we're talking Emperor Titans!