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 Reecius wrote:

We don't have to use the Dirty D's if we don't want to!

*Begins to post*

*Remembers he's had an account suspension in the past week*

Nevermind...

YakManDoo wrote:
I know it's been said again and again, but GW doesn't want a tournament game. This is a beer and pretzels hobby to them and they don't want balance. They want FoTM, they want imbalance, and they want broken. Broken SELLS MODELS!!! Local groups playing games and painters painting minis is what they think their game is all about.

I bought Escalation, I love the book, and I'm going to ask the wife to buy a Baneblade for Xmas. Then, I'm going to bring that big bastard to my local friends and wreck face for all of about 2 weeks until my buddy paints his Revenant Titan. Then I'll buy a Thunderhawk. I'm their target, I have cash, and I spend 4-5k a year on this crap. I am an addict and Games Workshop depends on me and I oblige.

I heard about this place called Frontline Gaming that sells the goodies you like at 20% off retail

I have 5 Super Heavies myself, and it is cool to use them, just not in tournament play at this point in time, IMO.

For scenario play? Hell yeah! Fun games? Yup. Forging some hot narratives? Sure!

But not tournament play to me, at least not yet.

 Reecius wrote:
Either way, let's do it! I want to try the Gargantauns! I think, honestly, the Haridan is more powerful than the Revenant after reading the rules further. That thing is bananas.

@Thread

And fellas, I freaked out too as we have so much at stake, but I'm over it already. I think so long as we all agree what rules we want to use, it will be fine.

We have lots of choices:

Different types of tournaments
Rules modifications
Omitting some rules from tournaments, etc.

We don't have to use the Dirty D's if we don't want to!

The problem is you can still ground him (harridan) on a 1-2. Afterwards, the revenant can kill it easily.

I feel another poll coming up on how we should "fix" Escalation for tournament play (or whether or not to even allow it).



Here's my houserule. Destroyer guns are allowed and can only be used against units with re-rollable 2+/++/+++/+++++ saves.

I totally dig what a lot of the tourney guys say, but I can't help but thinking that they are yelling at the wall. Warhammer 40k has gone back to its roots in a huge way in 6th. GW doesn't care about tournaments. Reecius is dead on, but he's gonna have to find a different ruleset to make his models do their thing. Paint some models, drink some beers, create a campaign, and let 40k be what it is...(for this edition)

I do like the SC2 comparison, but Blizzard loves the tourny scene.

The sad thing is, Escalation was the *perfect* way for GW to keep D-weapons in Apoc as the stupid-powerful 'table-cleaners' in those big games and make a sanitized version of the D-weapon rule for 'regular' games of 40K because the Escalation book contains complete rules for those weapons...so they totally could have had one version of the rule for apoc and a different one for regular 40k.

I mean, they could have just said Strength 'D' equal Strength 10 and ignores invulnerable saves (on top of the weapon's normally listed AP value).

Then all of a sudden you still have a really powerful useful weapon that helps reign in 2++ units but isn't completely stupid OTT.

Oh well...

 yakface wrote:
The sad thing is, Escalation was the *perfect* way for GW to keep D-weapons in Apoc as the stupid-powerful 'table-cleaners' in those big games and make a sanitized version of the D-weapon rule for 'regular' games of 40K because the Escalation book contains complete rules for those weapons...so they totally could have had one version of the rule for apoc and a different one for regular 40k.

I mean, they could have just said Strength 'D' equal Strength 10 and ignores invulnerable saves (on top of the weapon's normally listed AP value).

Then all of a sudden you still have a really powerful useful weapon that helps reign in 2++ units but isn't completely stupid OTT.

Exactly my thoughts Yak. Another missed opportunity to create something good, and instead we have Revenant Titans ruining things because their guns are too good.

We haven't even tried the Helstrom template D weapon yet, either! WTF? That thing is gnarly, too.

But I agree, the idea of SHs in 40K is good fun, I love the models! Just, this was handled poorly.

I've used and faced super-heavies on lots of occasions. I own 10 of the things myself, plus a couple of Gargantuan Creatures for my 'Nids, and a lot of the time I know I would have been better off just bringing regular units, or have seen regular units just laugh at super-heavies (Land Raider vs Macharius, for example).

Revenants are scary - quite scary - yet in every game I've played I've seen them reduced to scrap fairly quickly once people start concentrating on them. Whether it was a barrage of heavy weapon fire or a unit of Terminators jumping one with their Chainfists, they fold like most super-heavies do, and I'd be happy to face them in any game...

... if not for the D...

... take that away, and they're golden; just another great looking model to have on the table top.

The sad thing is, Escalation is soooo close to being a huge winner (in my book).

I know from experience at Adepticon watching Gladiator games play out (a tournament event where a single super-heavy model was allowed) was an awesome spectacle to behold.

40K has these giant models now and there just isn't any reason that they couldn't have been introduced in a controlled fashion into 'regular' games of 40k that didn't break the game and helped make 40k into an even cooler spectacle.

It seems on paper like the +1 Seize bonus, the special Warlord table and the bonus VPs you get for damaging Super-heavies could really allow for fairly balanced games between a force that has a super-heavy and one that doesn't...so long as the Super-heavy rules are appropriately point costed for their abilities.

And since Escalation is separate from Apoclaypse, there's no reason that GW couldn't have taken the time to ensure that the super-heavies that were getting included in the supplement passed the muster and weren't overpowered, but they failed because they seem intent on not changing how the super-heavies work between Apoc and Escalation besides removing all the extra strategem stuff that applies only to Apoc.

What a real shame. I think it would have been amazing to see 40k tournament games with a super-heavy on one side and a 'regular' force on the other, but both players involved and having fun fighting an amazing looking battle with giant models fighting...

Again, I completely agree with Yak here.

http://thediceodyssey.blogspot.co.nz/2013/07/weapons-testing-field.html

Ignore the poor terrain and models. We had all started new armies and had scratch terrain available at the time. But this was our experience earlier this year (jayden being me). The link is the Battle Report of the scenario i put up at the begining of the thread. Was a very easy game.

Take back your SH's and give us primarchs!

That doesn't even make sense.. what do super heavies have to do with Primarchs? (who are almost all gone)

 Kirasu wrote:
That doesn't even make sense.. what do super heavies have to do with Primarchs? (who are almost all gone)

Well the lord of war slot in the HH books can be used by a Primarch.

Well.. yeah.. but that's a different game setting than 40k.

Well this is the reason the AdeptiCon Gladiator is on a hiatus this year.

Apocalypse came out and instead of reigning in D weapons a bit with some minor tweaks ... just made them better.

For 2014 Gladiator we considered making a tweak to the D weapon rules and rolling with it. But we also knew that this Escalation supplement was in the pipeline, thought it was best to shelve it and see what Escalation brought. The timing of releases are outside the control of TO's and sometimes they make for tough decisions.

All part of running an event.

No one has mentioned that the vast majority of the models un the supplament are IG. Yet more proof of inbalance. Why are there like 9 IG Super Heavies and everyone else gets 1 in most cases? What about the Sisters? nothing at all for them. Of, and the ONLY titan in the book goes to the army the needs help the least. How does this make sense?

The Dataslate formations are no better. Why is GW making the already good stuff better? Why not use these formations to help armies you are not going to be able to help out with a new dex for a while? The only logical explination for this approach is that GW knows that people buy the new hotness and are willing to pay more money to get more powerful versions of their already dominate armies...

Not even a pretense of game balance.

I would love a Dataslate to make Com. Dante worth his points again... not going to happen because who is buying BA right now? They so quickly forget how I have invested in the army and really want them to be descent again...

GW's regard for their fans is simple => "What have you bought from me LATELY,"

Yeah, because Sisters of Battle are TOTALLY a separate faction from the Imperial Guard and don't have access to the same superheavy assets as them or anything, right?

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, because Sisters of Battle are TOTALLY a separate faction from the Imperial Guard and don't have access to the same superheavy assets as them or anything, right?

If you go by the book itself, yes.

"The datasheets in this section may only be chosen if your primary detachment is from Codex: Imperial Guard. They may only transport units from Codex: Imperial Guard. The weapons, wargear and special rules referenced here will be found in Codex: Imperial Guard or the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook."

However, I believe another user sent an email to GW itself, who responded that as of now SoB don't have any SHV unique to them, but they may take an entry from any army.

I will attempt to find where I read it.

Ah, there we go. It was Troike

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/566705.page#6326751

Well, that looks like a GW customer service rep trying to sell more models / placate a customer, and nothing more... but that would be nice.

Copied below:

 Troike wrote:

GW Customer Services wrote:We do not produce a super-heavy vehicle for the Adepta Sororitas, so there is not a specific army model for them. However you do have the option to add any of the super-heavy vehicles or gargantuan creatures that we currently produce to your Adepta Sororitas army.

For example if you wanted to use a Doom Hammer or a Thunderhawk with you Sister's you are free to do so.

So, their advice is basically just to take a super-heavy with the Sisters depsite the rules, basically doing some homebrew? Or does this have some basis in the rules?

 ClockworkZion wrote:
FW is releasing a PDF in a few days adding more Lords of War.

Maybe FW will give the Sisters some love, if not soon then at some point. Hopefully.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Yeah, because Sisters of Battle are TOTALLY a separate faction from the Imperial Guard and don't have access to the same superheavy assets as them or anything, right?

Well... no. They don't.

The Adepta Sororitas aren't part of the Imperial Guard any more than the Adeptus Astartes are. They have separate assets and don't have access to one another's munitions or materiel.

IK Viper wrote:No one has mentioned that the vast majority of the models un the supplament are IG. Yet more proof of inbalance. Why are there like 9 IG Super Heavies and everyone else gets 1 in most cases?

Because the Imperial Guard are the only army that have 8 plastic Super-Heavies, that's why. I thought that would've been obvious.

SOB are not an army.Escalation said every army.So there for:Not an army.(Just kidding.But its like they pretended they don't exist)Can blood angels and DA use the Thunderhawk actually?

And making guard tanks is a much more streamlined process then making, oh i dont know necron or tau vehicles maybe?

I am talking about a process of modeling in general, like your sculptors and moulders would somewhat be more experienced in more real vehicles than others maybe ?

I just don't see why people can't view and play Escalation as a SUPPLEMENT, just like cities of death or planetstrike.

Allies are in the BRB. Farsight enclaves is basically another codex, and the dataslates simply add more of the same unit to specific codecies. To me, escalation is just like playing Apocalypse, and is not not truly 40K proper. Sure, I'd love to play it sometime, but I think it's really easy to simply say "this is a different type of game" and put it in its own tournaments and agree with your opponent beforehand to play it that way.

Most of the talk here has been about Escalation and it's effects on Tournaments, pick up games at the store, and playing at home with Grandma. (And rightfully so. Grandma cheats. She's terrible about line of sight calls and makes me roll off for everything! "No Grandma! You can't deepstrike your Daemon Prince into my Bastion! I don't care how much of it's capacity is unoccupied!")

However, I just finished perusing Stronghold Assault, and am seeing a number of issues or concerns.

*AV15 buildings. (This is news to me, but maybe you guys know about it) There are two in the book: Macro-Cannon Aquila Stronghold (the eagle shlong building), and Vortex Missile Aquila Strongpoint.
* Vortex Missiles It's like D weapons, but Ordinance, unlimited range, and they're hidden in the aforementioned AV 15 building. (Never typed out aforementioned before. Hooked on Phonics Score!)
* Uh, maybe Grandma CAN deepstrike that Daemon into my bastion! The book talks about certain units that may or may not deploy into buildings from reserve if they have teleportation, or they can tunnel. Maybe. If you agree with your opponent before the game what he can or can't do with his 634 point Deathstar Unit carrying his Warlord when it comes to your 500+ point Macro-Cannon Aquila Strongpoint where I'm hiding my Warlord and his retinue...
*How big is the freaking Void Shield Generator Building? You can't even show us a mock-up of one? The damn thing has a 12" bubble around it! Is it bigger than a a Bastion? A Rhino? A breadbox? (I've never actually seen a breadbox, so why do people compare stuff to it?) It's not that many points, so it's probably not Skyshield Landing Pad sized, right?

Edit: Stupid spelling....

 kronk wrote:
Most of the talk here has been about Escalation and it's effects on Tournaments, pick up games at the store, and playing at home with Grandma. (And rightfully so. Grandma cheats. She's terrible about line of sight calls and makes me roll off for everything! "No Grandma! You can't deepstrike your Daemon Prince into my Bastion! I don't care how much of it's capacity is unoccupied!")

However, I just finished perusing Stronghold Assault, and am seeing a number of issues or concerns.

*AV15 buildings. (This is news to me, but maybe you guys know about it) There are two in the book: Macro-Cannon Aquila Stronghold (the eagle shlong building), and Vortex Missile Aquila Strongpoint.

Edit: Stupid spelling....

Yeah, I noticed AV15 too. I was a bit surprised; I wasn't expecting them to break the "limit"

They're breaking all the limits lately (FoC thrown out the window, super heavies with D-weapons, why not an AV15 building with a better-than-D-weapon armament?). As long as it's a new plastic kit folks will buy for those rules. Ugh GW.

Outside of the four points above, I REALLY like the Stronghold Assault book, to be perfectly honest. I'd like to play some of the missions in the back (either defender or attacker) Sons of Dorn!

 RiTides wrote:
They're breaking all the limits lately (FoC thrown out the window, super heavies with D-weapons, why not an AV15 building with a better-than-D-weapon armament?). As long as it's a new plastic kit folks will buy for those rules. Ugh GW.

Ai, I'm not too thrilled about the blast weapon that can hurt flyers either.

So winning a 40K tournament is equivalent to winning Duck, Duck, Goose? No wonder all the good players left to play something else that actually requires skill and not a D6 roll.