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voidshields counts as Av12 and gone once you glance.But I am confused when .....
lets use a rhino...
If you shoot 3 laz cannons at a rhino under the shield
1) Would you roll against the shield and all 3 shoots kill it as if it were a separate unit
2) Roll pen against the shield till it is gone then the remaining hits go to the rhino.

Second scenario is
20 boys under 9 shields get hit by a Large/mega blast
1) 10 boys are under the blast , would the shields then get 10 chances to get a glance working its way through the shields or would that only count as 1 hit.

Are the 3 lascans in a single unit? Or are they firing from three separate units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll just answer both questions.

Let's go with a Devestator las unit, 4 lascans. Since all the shooting from a unit happens at the same time, any hits generated by any of the 4 lascans would then roll for armour penetration against the Void Shield. If any glances/pens occur, then the shield goes down. All four lascans have shot and are done, with damage done only to the VS. Then another unit, say a Land Raider, would shoot its lascannons against the building (or the folks on the battlement).

So upgrading your bunker to have a VS means that one whole enemy unit has to waste its shooting to get to the unit inside the bubble/building.

yeah the 3 lascannons are one unit


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So 1 unit can only ever remove 1 shield?

What he means is that no matter how many lascannons you shoot from a single squad they will all only be resolved against the VS, not against the building, you would have to fire from a 2nd unit in order for the building to be hit

So let's say I fire a Broadsides unit at a Rhino behind 3 void Shields. I hit with say the average 12 S7 hits. That's against AV12 an average of 4 HPs so should kill all the void shields with hits to spare. Are we saying I only remove 1 shield? Does it make a difference if the shields are from the same generator or if they are from 3 separate? I'm going to look into this as it could be even more broken than I first thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I've had a closer look:

Going back to the Rhino example. I've 12 hits and 3 projected void shields. So I have to randomise those hits between the 3 Void shields. Cool so far.

We are however told that once all void shields are removed further hits strike the "original target". Which certainly implies the hits can roll over, however doing so causes other problems (you must roll armour pen one at a time with no permission to do so, extra hits have no ability to roll over to other void shields). So we have to take this as further hits from different units.

Therefore I randomise those 12 hits between the 3 shields let's call them Sh1, Sh2 & Sh3.

So Sh1 takes 3 hits, Sh2 7 hits and Sh3 2 hits

I roll to pen each against Sh1 I roll: 5,6,3 dealing a pen and glance the shield is down.
Against Sh2 I roll: 2,4,5,5,5,5,6 dealing a pen and 4 glances the shield is down.
Against Sh3 I roll: 1,3 dealing no damage the shield holds so only 2 Shields are down despite a total of 5 glances and 2 pens from the rolls.

Likewise against a bunker no unit can hurt the bunker until the void shield is down.

Query: I am unfamiliar with the specifics of the void shield, but I would like to know why they would work differently than the Dark Eldar shield upgrade. It provides a 2++ until it fails a save, then is destroyed. Additional wounds pass to the natural armor save of the unit/model.

When shooting it, you roll shots individually until it breaks. So why are you shooting the Void Shield and not the unit? Is it part of the void shield rules? Where can I find said rules?

From Stronghold assault:

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield. If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings’ projected void shields is hit.

If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead...."

Sounds like hits from the same unit can spill onto the protected unit.

Thanks Cthulu. So it operates as I expected.

So my take for the original poster:
Scenario 1: the Rhino is AV 12 until it is glance+ the first time. After that, it is AV normal, and begins taking hull points.

Scenario 2: Very interesting. I would say since Blasts get 1 chance to pen a vehicle, making the Boyz a vehicle reduces the "hits" to 1. I am basing this on the phrase "hit the void shield instead", so I am resolving a blast against an AV12 target.

CthululsSpy if you think that. Where are you getting permission to roll each hit separately? The Shield has an AV the unit behind could well have a toughness. Only wound allocation and damage results have permission to be resolved sequentially.

Further hits must refer to further hits from different units.

 FlingitNow wrote:
CthululsSpy if you think that. Where are you getting permission to roll each hit separately? The Shield has an AV the unit behind could well have a toughness. Only wound allocation and damage results have permission to be resolved sequentially.

Further hits must refer to further hits from different units.

Argh, I misread it. I had thought that since you are trying to hit a target and instead hit a shield, that it would work like wound allocation. But by the wording:

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield

It seems to be more like it does, it fact, take the whole unit to dispel a shield, and another to hurt whatever is inside. I personally think my previous interpretation made more sense, but anyway.

No.

Further hits strike The original target instead, how Can shooting from a second Unit that has not even shot yet, even have an original target.

Buy The book, and read The rules. Its pretty simple, there is no need to discuss it.

Further hits strike The original target instead, how Can shooting from a second Unit that has not even shot yet, even have an original target.

How can shots from the same unit cause further hits? Where are you getting permission to resolve shots from 1 unit sequentially. Where are you getting permission to assign hits on one Void Shield onto another?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Further hits strike The original target instead, how Can shooting from a second Unit that has not even shot yet, even have an original target.

How can shots from the same unit cause further hits? Where are you getting permission to resolve shots from 1 unit sequentially. Where are you getting permission to assign hits on one Void Shield onto another?

they are not generating additional hits.

for simplicity, 4 las canons target the rhino, the rhino is within a void bubble that has 3 shields up.

for argumnts sake the unit hits with all 4 las canons.

the unit has scored 4 hits.

void shield rules state that the shield takes the hit until it is gone where any left over hits go on the orriginal target. keep in mind you can not target the void shield directly, its a re-direct to the shield from your orrignial target.

this means you must resolve your hits seperatly much like a mixed armour target.

in this example you would roll 3 dice first to try to get the shields down,for arguements sake say I roll 3 6's penetrating the 3 shields value, this means that the 3 shields are down and the last hit is resolved agasint the rhino.

lets now backtrack a little, and now my penetration value rolls don't all equate to 12 or over, the last shot is then resolved agasint the shield value as not all the shields are down so the re-direct is in effect.

void shield rules state that the shield takes the hit until it is gone where any left over hits go on the orriginal target.

That's not what it says. It says any hits from a unit on a unit within the void shield has those hits instead randomly hit a void shield.

this means you must resolve your hits seperatly much like a mixed armour target.

Where does it give you permission to do this? No where does it state this and remember the unit inside the bubble could have a toughness.

in this example you would roll 3 dice first to try to get the shields down,for arguements sake say I roll 3 6's penetrating the 3 shields value, this means that the 3 shields are down and the last hit is resolved agasint the rhino.

No again you are told explicitly that if the unit is protected by more than 1 shield you must randomise hits between shields. So you d3 your 4 shots to see which shield they hit. Say you get 2 hits on Shield 1 and 2 hits on Shield 3 but none on Shield 2. You pen with all 4 dice where is your permission to assign those extra pens onto shield 2 and whilst Shield 2 is still standing you certainly can't assign hits to the "original target".

All shooting is simultaneous.

Ergo, all shooting from a unit hits the target at the same time.

In the passage I quoted, every hit against the unit is resolved against the shield.

Ergo, every attack from the firing unit must be resolved against the shield. Meaning that it takes a whole unit to kill a shield.

See: Quantum Shielding for precedence.

I admit it does seem odd, but it's to stop players from killing the shield with a melta, and then burning the occupants with a flamer at the same time.

Lets take this a step further.I now shoot the boys from over 12" with 9 bolters and a lascannon,
1)Do all the hits go to the shield and bounce off or
2) roll the lascannon first kill the shield then the bolters hit the boys?

 azgrim wrote:
Lets take this a step further.I now shoot the boys from over 12" with 9 bolters and a lascannon,
1)Do all the hits go to the shield and bounce off or
2) roll the lascannon first kill the shield then the bolters hit the boys?

All against the shield. All shooting from a unit is simultaneous. Picking and choosing would be a tad unfair.

 FlingitNow wrote:

void shield rules state that the shield takes the hit until it is gone where any left over hits go on the orriginal target.

That's not what it says. It says any hits from a unit on a unit within the void shield has those hits instead randomly hit a void shield.

this means you must resolve your hits seperatly much like a mixed armour target.

Where does it give you permission to do this? No where does it state this and remember the unit inside the bubble could have a toughness.

in this example you would roll 3 dice first to try to get the shields down,for arguements sake say I roll 3 6's penetrating the 3 shields value, this means that the 3 shields are down and the last hit is resolved agasint the rhino.

No again you are told explicitly that if the unit is protected by more than 1 shield you must randomise hits between shields. So you d3 your 4 shots to see which shield they hit. Say you get 2 hits on Shield 1 and 2 hits on Shield 3 but none on Shield 2. You pen with all 4 dice where is your permission to assign those extra pens onto shield 2 and whilst Shield 2 is still standing you certainly can't assign hits to the "original target".

Page 108-109 Warhammer 40000: Stronghold Assault. You Can find your answer there. You dont randomize, projected void shield generated from a single VSG, but if there is multiple VSG, that protects The target.

All hit the Void Shields:

Since firing is done in a unit-by-unit basis, based on the sequence of fire determined by the BRB for the shooting of a unit. The first unit only has permission to hit the shield.

Are these Voidshields any different from the ones in Apocalypse?

SJ

 azgrim wrote:
Lets take this a step further.I now shoot the boys from over 12" with 9 bolters and a lascannon,
1)Do all the hits go to the shield and bounce off or
2) roll the lascannon first kill the shield then the bolters hit the boys?

All the bolter rounds hit the shield do nothing lascannon strips it for the next unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Page 108-109 Warhammer 40000: Stronghold Assault. You Can find your answer there. You dont randomize, projected void shield generated from a single VSG, but if there is multiple VSG, that protects The target.

Firstly it yells you to randomise between all void shield projections not VSG. Secondly there is still no permission to resolve shooting sequentially or indeed to pass hits from one shield to the next (even if from the same generator).

The Scatter Laser from the Eldar codex already demonstrates to hit rolls can be modified by the same model. If a scatter laser hits, all shots by that model are twinlinked for the turn. Because all shooting happens simultaneously, you must declare what is shooting, then roll for your scatter laser, if it hits, everything else gets to reroll misses.

Based on the quoted passage, the target is still the unit, not the void shield. All rolls to wound/pen happen sequentially, most people just speed it up with Fast Dice. The void shield provides a defense until the first glance+ is rolled, at which point, any subsequent hits the unit has made are rolled as wounds/pens against the original target.

You are asserting that because all hits happen simultaneously (with already noted exceptions) all wounds do as well. The BRB, in the shooting phase section, indicates otherwise.

It doesn't say wounds or pens though, it says hits.

Dessorag wrote:
The Scatter Laser from the Eldar codex already demonstrates to hit rolls can be modified by the same model. If a scatter laser hits, all shots by that model are twinlinked for the turn. Because all shooting happens simultaneously, you must declare what is shooting, then roll for your scatter laser, if it hits, everything else gets to reroll misses.

And the Scatter Laser has explicit wording to allow that.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
From Stronghold assault:

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield. If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings’ projected void shields is hit.

If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead...."

First part: All shots are rolled to hit a target. X dice are rolled, and Y are greater than 7-BS. The unit now has Y HITS to be resolved against it.

Step 2: Roll to wound. The void shield forces you to roll against AV 12 to wound. You do this step until you successfully glance the shield. At which point, the difficulty to wound changes.

The void shield chances the difficulty to wound, until one is successful.

The key phrase is "target". The unit protected by the void shield is a viable target. All shooting is resolved against that target as if it had a defensive stat of AV12. This is different from shooting at a transport. In that case, the target is the transport, not the unit inside it. This is why shots don't carry forward in that case.

You don't have permission to roll to wound and pen sequentially. Fast dice are for saving throws and vehicle damage table results (which are sequential) also the hits have to be randomised between all Void Shields so what happens if you remove 1 void shield but not another you have no permission to pass those hits to another void shield and with shields still in place you can go to the target unit.

 FlingitNow wrote:
also the hits have to be randomised between all Void Shields so what happens if you remove 1 void shield but not another you have no permission to pass those hits to another void shield and with shields still in place you can go to the target unit.

From Stronghold Assault
"If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings' projected void shields is hit".

Pretty simple:
" Guardsmen squad squad bones gets lit up by a chaos space marine havoc squad with autocannons, the havocs score 12 hits, guardsmen squad bones is within the dome of two void shield generators, they are in luck and Void Shield A stops 8 of the 12 hits, the shots not glancing or penetrating the 3 projected shields, the 4 remaining shots either penetrates or glances the shields, as there is only 3 projected shields from Void generator A, sergeant bones is not so lucky as the final shot punches through and gets him right in the balls"

You have to read the Special rule: Projected Void Shields in context, and not pick the bits, that fits the case you are presenting.
If still confused, i suggest you go get it. Its not that expensive and really a requirement for any serious, or even half serious 40K player.

The consensus has been that the 12 auto cannon shots will hit and pen only 1 shield .

So then the part about further hits hitting the original unit does nothing?

 Happyjew wrote:
So then the part about further hits hitting the original unit does nothing?

At the moment it looks like it just reminds you that further shooting from a different unit will hit the target not the downed shield.

The rules are not very clearly written though.