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 FlingitNow wrote:

Resolve hits against the first random shield until it is down.

You then follow the further hits are resolved against the unit, which then triggers the next shield, to be resolved sequentially again.

This is the crux of the issue for me. The further hits have no permission to go to the unit (and then redirect to a different shield) if there are still shields up. Only if they are all down can you go to the unit.

I like your interpretation and it makes sense. But it just doesn't seem to be supported by what they're saying which is why I hesitant to go with it.

They absolutely have permission when you follow it through.

1: roll all your to hits.
2: all the hits get intercepted by the first shield(randomized if there are more than 1 Shield source).
3: you start sequentially allocating those hits to the first shield and rolling penetration until the shield collapses
4: the further hits are then applied to the unit(exactly as worded)
5: if there are still Shields in play the shield rules kick in again intercepting the hits applied to the unit(exactly as worded; Hits on the unit are intercepted), Go back to step 2

Not only are all permissions there, those are actually requirements

And to your further misunderstanding; All of the to hit rolls are rolled Simultaneously and on the unit; it is the resolution of each scored hit that then happens sequentially as above.

Doesn't the Target's controlling player allocate the successful hits? Why wouldn't the that player dump all of the anti-infantry hits into the first shield, leaving only the remaining anti-tanks to ping the shields? Makes killing shielded infantry functionally the same as being embarked.

SJ

No you handle it the same way as you handle any attack from differently Strengthed and AP weapons; the active player allocates what gets resolved in what order.

Technically it's the shooting player... who is usually (but not always) the active player.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Further hits strike The original target instead, how Can shooting from a second Unit that has not even shot yet, even have an original target.

How can shots from the same unit cause further hits? Where are you getting permission to resolve shots from 1 unit sequentially. Where are you getting permission to assign hits on one Void Shield onto another?

they are not generating additional hits.

for simplicity, 4 las canons target the rhino, the rhino is within a void bubble that has 3 shields up.

for argumnts sake the unit hits with all 4 las canons.

the unit has scored 4 hits.

void shield rules state that the shield takes the hit until it is gone where any left over hits go on the orriginal target. keep in mind you can not target the void shield directly, its a re-direct to the shield from your orrignial target.

this means you must resolve your hits seperatly much like a mixed armour target.

in this example you would roll 3 dice first to try to get the shields down,for arguements sake say I roll 3 6's penetrating the 3 shields value, this means that the 3 shields are down and the last hit is resolved agasint the rhino.

lets now backtrack a little, and now my penetration value rolls don't all equate to 12 or over, the last shot is then resolved agasint the shield value as not all the shields are down so the re-direct is in effect.

Except that GW has never resolved shooting attacks as sequential in its rules, all shooting has always been simultaneous. So a comparison to mixed armor saves is apples to oranges. Remember that the rules must state that sequential shooting from one unit is allowed otherwise it is not (permissive ruleset).

"If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead...."

Refers to subsequent units firing at the target within the void shield (that has collapsed).

1: roll all your to hits.
2: all the hits get intercepted by the first shield(randomized if there are more than 1 Shield source).
3: you start sequentially allocating those hits to the first shield and rolling penetration until the shield collapses
4: the further hits are then applied to the unit(exactly as worded)
5: if there are still Shields in play the shield rules kick in again intercepting the hits applied to the unit(exactly as worded; Hits on the unit are intercepted), Go back to step 2

The issue I have with this is that step 3 is in fact 2 steps. Certainly if you have multiple shields. So step 3 should read:

3) randomise hits between shields
4a) roll to penetrate shields, now even if we ignore the rules that these are simultaneous and do this sequentially we can't go back to 3 as we have no permission to do so.

We can't go to your 4 if there are still shields up, we also can't go back to 3 to reassign those hits to shields.

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:


Except that GW has never resolved shooting attacks as sequential in its rules, all shooting has always been simultaneous. So a comparison to mixed armor saves is apples to oranges. Remember that the rules must state that sequential shooting from one unit is allowed otherwise it is not (permissive ruleset).

"If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead...."

Refers to subsequent units firing at the target within the void shield (that has collapsed).

exibit a) off the top of my head, network markerlights.

no it isn't.

it is covered as others have pointed out, and I will quote hen I get back to my library, that sequential resolution happens when each hit can effect how the total resolution works. in this instance your resolving agasint an AV12 target before either another AV'X' target or a Toughness value.

and no, it refers to the current 'hit' pool that have yet to be resolved.....this thread is smacking me of people who have not had much experiance with apocolypse and Void shields. they really are much simpilar things than they are being made out to be and are not as potent as they are being insinuated to be either.

the unit is the target, not the shield, the shield deflects incomming shots until it has collapsed, once it is collapsed the shots go back onto the unit again, if there are more shields then the next shield takes it, repeat until all shots are resolved, it really is that simple.

exibit a) off the top of my head, network markerlights.

no it isn't.

it is covered as others have pointed out, and I will quote hen I get back to my library, that sequential resolution happens when each hit can effect how the total resolution works.

No sequential resolution happens when we are told it happens. Like Networked Marker Lights your own example proves that you need express permission to resolve sequentially. See also laser lock, firing at vehicle squadrons etc notice how they tell you as an exception that you have to roll sequentially.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Resolve hits against the first random shield until it is down.

You then follow the further hits are resolved against the unit, which then triggers the next shield, to be resolved sequentially again.

This is the crux of the issue for me. The further hits have no permission to go to the unit (and then redirect to a different shield) if there are still shields up. Only if they are all down can you go to the unit.

I like your interpretation and it makes sense. But it just doesn't seem to be supported by what they're saying which is why I hesitant to go with it.

They absolutely have permission when you follow it through.

1: roll all your to hits.
2: all the hits get intercepted by the first shield(randomized if there are more than 1 Shield source).
3: you start sequentially allocating those hits to the first shield and rolling penetration until the shield collapses
4: the further hits are then applied to the unit(exactly as worded)
5: if there are still Shields in play the shield rules kick in again intercepting the hits applied to the unit(exactly as worded; Hits on the unit are intercepted), Go back to step 2

Not only are all permissions there, those are actually requirements

And to your further misunderstanding; All of the to hit rolls are rolled Simultaneously and on the unit; it is the resolution of each scored hit that then happens sequentially as above.

You are adding in actions.

1. Roll to hit -----------------> resolve hits (wound-armor pen)
2. Allocate wounds -------> resolve saves
3. Determine results -----> remove models

Working in the Rhino VS (3) question....

1. Roll to hit (4 Lascannons are fired and all hit) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> VS is struck and the results are 2 glance and 2 penetrates
2. Allocate wounds (no wounds) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> only the VS was hit so only VS saves can be taken if allowed
3. Determine results (the VS is affected by the lascannons 4 times, 3 of which are required to drop all the shields, the 4th is lost) --------> all 3 VS are dropped until possibly the end of the controling players next turn.

No, Each time the unit is applied hits(from each volly of to-hit rolls that hit), you then have those hits allocated to the shield.

In the event of multiple shield sources you randomize the source that all those hits get intercepted by.

Example 1: I have a 9 man Plasma Cannon Dev squad(4 cannons) shooting at a unit within the AOE of 2 Void Shield Generators, each with 2 Shields. The Plasma Cannons score
10 hits, the Bolters in the squad score 3. The Hits are all then intercepted by a random Shield(lets say the from the generator on the Left), you then start rolling pens 1 at a time scoring a 2, then a 3, then a 6; shield is down. The further hits go to the unit, which then gets intercepted by a void shield again per the rules. It does not matter if this set of hits go to the one on the left or the one on the right; it still gets intercepted by a shield, Lets say it goes to the generator on the right this time. You then begin rolling penetration again getting a 1 then a 5. That shield is down and you have to randomly determine which generator takes the hits for its final shield(remember both had 2 shields, and each have lost 1; and you have had the further hits applied to the unit which got intercepted by the generators again)
With your last 4 Plasma cannon hits you roll a 2, a 1, a 4, then a 6; the last shield from that randomly determined generator is down. Your Bolter hits are further allocated to the unit, then back to the last remaining shield and wasted(0 chance to collapse the shield). If another unit fires at the Unit within the generator's fields the hits go to the last remaining Void Shield and if it collapses then the remaining hits go to the unit.

Cuthbert:

A) you are missing huge amounts of steps.

And 2) you clearly do not know any of how Voidshields work because, that is not even what Fling was saying, it is just. so. wrong.

The Hits are all then intercepted by a random Shield(lets say the from the generator on the Left), you then start rolling pens 1 at a time scoring a 2, then a 3, then a 6; shield is down. The further hits go to the unit, which then gets intercepted by a void shield again per the rules.

The underlined is not supported by the rules only if all shields are down can you put those hits on the unit. They aren't so you can't. Those hits are therefore wasted.

You are correct, let me revise that:

The Hits are all then intercepted by a random Shield(lets say the from the generator on the Left), you then start rolling pens 1 at a time scoring a 2, then a 3, then a 6; shield is down. You continue allocating hits until all the Fields on this generator are down, the Further hits then go to the unit and are then intercepted by the other generator.

The reason it all stays on the same generator is that you only randomly determine Generators when the hits are intercepted, and all intercepted hits go to the same generator.

Once the First Generator has lost all shields then thefurther hits go back to the unit, and are then intercepted by the remaining Generator.

the Further hits then go to the unit

Which again they can't as pointed out they can't do this until all shields are down which they still won't be.

 FlingitNow wrote:

the Further hits then go to the unit

Which again they can't as pointed out they can't do this until all shields are down which they still won't be.

That rule is from the single source, it does not discuss the Multiple Generators.

It really seems like you are trying to make something that works just fine "Broken"; Which is surprising because we have an actually well-written rule from GW.

Question: You have taken down all the shields from 1 Generator: have all those shields Collapsed?
Answer: Yes, so the hits go to the unit to then be intercepted by the other Buildings' Shields

Where's that from?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Where's that from?

Where is what from?

"Question: You have taken down all the shields from 1 Generator: have all those shields Collapsed?
Answer: Yes, so the hits go to the unit to then be intercepted by the other Buildings' Shields"

Is that from a FAQ?

No, it was an illustration.

We use it often here in YMDC

Pose a question and then answer that question.

That rule is from the single source, it does not discuss the Multiple Generators.

It really seems like you are trying to make something that works just fine "Broken"; Which is surprising because we have an actually well-written rule from GW.

The issue is I just don't see the justification in what you're saying. We have to invent a sequential shooting resolution for each hit, then have to break it to reassign hits and in the process break the VSP rule about huts going onto units whilst void shields are still up.

 FlingitNow wrote:

That rule is from the single source, it does not discuss the Multiple Generators.

It really seems like you are trying to make something that works just fine "Broken"; Which is surprising because we have an actually well-written rule from GW.

The issue is I just don't see the justification in what you're saying. We have to invent a sequential shooting resolution for each hit, then have to break it to reassign hits and in the process break the VSP rule about huts going onto units whilst void shields are still up.

We don't have to invent sequential resolution, we already have that.

The Void shield rules tell you in no uncertain terms that you reassign the hits, sometime multiple times.

An no you do not break the rule about hits going back to the units while sheilds are still up because in that case the shields from the protecting building have all been collapsed.

 FlingitNow wrote:

exibit a) off the top of my head, network markerlights.

no it isn't.

it is covered as others have pointed out, and I will quote hen I get back to my library, that sequential resolution happens when each hit can effect how the total resolution works.

No sequential resolution happens when we are told it happens. Like Networked Marker Lights your own example proves that you need express permission to resolve sequentially. See also laser lock, firing at vehicle squadrons etc notice how they tell you as an exception that you have to roll sequentially.

Networked marker lights have permission to fire first because normal marker lights specify the opposite.

ItsPug wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

exibit a) off the top of my head, network markerlights.

no it isn't.

it is covered as others have pointed out, and I will quote hen I get back to my library, that sequential resolution happens when each hit can effect how the total resolution works.

No sequential resolution happens when we are told it happens. Like Networked Marker Lights your own example proves that you need express permission to resolve sequentially. See also laser lock, firing at vehicle squadrons etc notice how they tell you as an exception that you have to roll sequentially.

Networked marker lights have permission to fire first because normal marker lights specify the opposite.

Those are all also rolling To-Hit Sequentially, which is not at all what is happening here.

As has been explained in this thread Pug.

ItsPug wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

exibit a) off the top of my head, network markerlights.

no it isn't.

it is covered as others have pointed out, and I will quote hen I get back to my library, that sequential resolution happens when each hit can effect how the total resolution works.

No sequential resolution happens when we are told it happens. Like Networked Marker Lights your own example proves that you need express permission to resolve sequentially. See also laser lock, firing at vehicle squadrons etc notice how they tell you as an exception that you have to roll sequentially.

Networked marker lights have permission to fire first because normal marker lights specify the opposite.

No networks roll sequentially because they specify they do. Do the rules here do that?

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So please quote the rule where you are allowed to resolve hits one at a time. Because I can't find it in my 6th Edition Rulebook nor in the Void Shield Projection rules. Should be straight forward enough as you claim it is there.

BRB page 73. "Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon's strength value..."

Bold for emphasis.

waiting for the comeback of a void shield is not a vehicle now......

First off, the quote is not the rule that governs how the shooting phase is conducted. It is intended to support a different aspect of how to conduct armor penetration, they are not mutually inclusive. So keep searching for your Easter Egg.

One of the things I will need to look at when I get back to the Library is this: Vehicle Squadrons.

I have a vague, slightly dull, reconciliation of there being a rule within informing us to resolve each shot individually in situations where the 'hits' can be spread across multiple vehicles. This likely stemmed from the fact vehicles can have different Armour Value depending simply on which way they are facing. It would be impossible in such a situation to roll all 'to hit' rolls any other way, as it would lead to a situation where a successful Glance or Penetration Can be scored against one vehicle and then applied to a vehicle with a higher Armour Value.

Can not say how well they would be applied to this situation, I really need to look at the rules for this Voidshield thing, but just something to ponder on....

I would also like to comment on the whole 'To Hit is a single roll ' claim: Right at the start of the rule section it informs us what a 'roll' is, though I like the word 'test' better, by defining them as XD6. This means any time where you see this terminology you are being informed to carry out a single roll using X number of six sided dice. This is important because some rules do different things depending on how many dice are used, such as Fleet granting permission to chose how many dice are re-rolled as multiple dice are used. If it wasn't for this definition of a single 'roll' it would be possible to argue that a special rule granting permission to modify a 'roll' result could be applied to all rolls made during that moment. For example: A single twin-linked weapon in a unit would grant permission to re-roll the entire units failed 'To Hit' rolls.

Even though Face Dice grants you the ability to roll multiple To Hit 'rolls' simultaneously this does not stop them from being individual 'rolls.'

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No, Each time the unit is applied hits(from each volly of to-hit rolls that hit), you then have those hits allocated to the shield.

In the event of multiple shield sources you randomize the source that all those hits get intercepted by.

Example 1: I have a 9 man Plasma Cannon Dev squad(4 cannons) shooting at a unit within the AOE of 2 Void Shield Generators, each with 2 Shields. The Plasma Cannons score
10 hits, the Bolters in the squad score 3. The Hits are all then intercepted by a random Shield(lets say the from the generator on the Left), you then start rolling pens 1 at a time scoring a 2, then a 3, then a 6; shield is down. The further hits go to the unit, which then gets intercepted by a void shield again per the rules. It does not matter if this set of hits go to the one on the left or the one on the right; it still gets intercepted by a shield, Lets say it goes to the generator on the right this time. You then begin rolling penetration again getting a 1 then a 5. That shield is down and you have to randomly determine which generator takes the hits for its final shield(remember both had 2 shields, and each have lost 1; and you have had the further hits applied to the unit which got intercepted by the generators again)
With your last 4 Plasma cannon hits you roll a 2, a 1, a 4, then a 6; the last shield from that randomly determined generator is down. Your Bolter hits are further allocated to the unit, then back to the last remaining shield and wasted(0 chance to collapse the shield). If another unit fires at the Unit within the generator's fields the hits go to the last remaining Void Shield and if it collapses then the remaining hits go to the unit.

Cuthbert:

A) you are missing huge amounts of steps.

And 2) you clearly do not know any of how Voidshields work because, that is not even what Fling was saying, it is just. so. wrong.

Kel, I could say the same about yourself. You debate skills are flawed at best.

The situation that you are adding to the discussion is vastly different from the simple one consisting of one generator and 3 VS. Being as you brought it up let's see how it would work.

The Dev squad fires and all successful to hits are tallied for each weapon. Those hits are then resolved agaisnt the randomly determined VS (left). The VS takes any saves it is entitled to. The VS is dropped when a glance or penetrating hit on armor 12 is scored, then that is it. No other VS are affected by the Dev squad.

A) Please detail all of the huge amounts of steps that I am missing. If you are going to claim something then back it up with something other than your gut-feelings.
2) Clearly your amassed knowledge of 6 days overwhelms my 22 years of playing GW strategy games and in fact i read on the entry when it was released as well. The problem is that you "think" that you know how you "want" the fortification to be played but obviously do not have a full grasp on how it should be played seeing as how you still do not understand that all shooting happens simultaneously and not sequentially. It has never been a sequential process and likely will never be in the future.

This does not mean that VS will not FAQed to be dropped in a sequential manner, but it will require an FAQ.

JinxDragon wrote:
One of the things I will need to look at when I get back to the Library is this: Vehicle Squadrons.

I have a vague, slightly dull, reconciliation of there being a rule within informing us to resolve each shot individually in situations where the 'hits' can be spread across multiple vehicles. This likely stemmed from the fact vehicles can have different Armour Value depending simply on which way they are facing. It would be impossible in such a situation to roll all 'to hit' rolls any other way, as it would lead to a situation where a successful Glance or Penetration Can be scored against one vehicle and then applied to a vehicle with a higher Armour Value.

Can not say how well they would be applied to this situation, I really need to look at the rules for this Voidshield thing, but just something to ponder on....

I would also like to comment on the whole 'To Hit is a single roll ' claim: Right at the start of the rule section it informs us what a 'roll' is, though I like the word 'test' better, by defining them as XD6. This means any time where you see this terminology you are being informed to carry out a single roll using X number of six sided dice. This is important because some rules do different things depending on how many dice are used, such as Fleet granting permission to chose how many dice are re-rolled as multiple dice are used. If it wasn't for this definition of a single 'roll' it would be possible to argue that a special rule granting permission to modify a 'roll' result could be applied to all rolls made during that moment. For example: A single twin-linked weapon in a unit would grant permission to re-roll the entire units failed 'To Hit' rolls.

Even though Face Dice grants you the ability to roll multiple To Hit 'rolls' simultaneously this does not stop them from being individual 'rolls.'

Jinx I'm not saying to hit rolls are a single roll at all I'm saying that they happen simultaneously as we have no permission to roll them sequentially.

The vehicle squadron rules would work here with some tweeks and be a great HYWPI bit they are not referenced so are not applicable. What I'm trying to work out is what they meant for us to do.

I still believe the core of the problem is not a issue with the simultaneous timing but sits with the general lack of permission to 'allocate hits' being combined with unclear rules that re-allocate hits to multiple other units.

A simple look at the vehicle squadron rules imply that by making the exception for squadrons to resolve AP rolls sequentially you would not normally do so without permission. The void shield rules have no such permission written in them. Also if after hits were generated shooting was sequential by default you wouldn't need the majority toughness rule at all.

I also don't see how the Fast Dice section has anything to do with void shields, all that does is gove you permission to roll multiple dice simultaneously in the mixed save wound allocation scenario.

The "futher hits" clause is ultimately useless due to how 6th ed shooting works, as by the time void shields collapse there are no more hits for that shooting attack. It's not surprising considering how much thought GW puts into these things before they copy and paste things.

HIWPI, if the RAW version proves too resilient I'd certainly look to house ruling it to work like squadrons.

The curious thought pattern I have, and I do agree that this wouldn't be a very strong argument to make, is the fact that buildings are treated as if they are vehicles. Honestly I only just got my hands on a copy of the book this thing is in and will need to takes a good look over the rules before I can say anything. My attention is also on other parts of the updated rules, such as the fact they put ground rules on how to determine what side a building is on, which gives me some hope that fortifications might become a little more usable in the future. Back on topic after a quick review of the rules and have found something that could make it possible to argue that Squadron rules are indeed in effect.

Most force organization charts limit you to a single fortification per army, making it difficult to take two in games of 1999 or below, so while it is possible to argue otherwise this rule is more likely to be related to the new concept they brought into play. 'Networks' of fortifications grant you the ability to take multiple buildings onto the battlefield, and one such network is specifically designed for void generators. This brings us to something very interesting, these 'network' entries have a Composition section which informs us how many of each building we are allowed to have. The fact you are purchasing this as a single slot, using a single entry in a book, with a Composition informing us that the size of the network is X number of 'pseudo-models' makes it very possible to state this is a squadron of buildings. That is when you take into account that the Building rules inform us to treat them like vehicles and this is the exact same way as you treat vehicles purchased under a single entry in a Codex, Supplement or otherwise.

This creates problems though as the Squadron rules demand the Squad fire at the same target and you do have rules do deploy the Squad spread out or touching as you desire. I know this is not an issue with the shields, of course, but it could come into play with some of the other 'networks' in this book unless some very delicate tip-toeing around rules takes place. I have a few ideas I will need to research, such as the possibility that the automatic fire rules grant you the ability to fire at multiple units because each building is required to target a different unit, but these sort of fun pondering are where 'gray area' rules lead us. It might be possible to get every single other element of the Squad section out of the picture except for the ability to re-allocate the hits. Also, you could evoke this rule on more then just the shields as well and demand the extra hits against someones Imperial Bastion be transferred onto the other one in the same network on the complete other side of the map.

Also:
Curious if someone can find rules stating that buildings have suffered an 'immobilized' result, and not just a line stating they can not move, because this will undo the Squad argument nicely.

Interesting little update:
There are Attacker/Defender Force Organization Charts which grant multiple fortifications so the problem can re-occur more often then I originally stated but it is an interesting lot of missions.