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 Troike wrote:

 Lynata wrote:
Judging from Andy Hoare's strike force article,

Oooh, was this an article specifically about them purging Marine Chapters? Where did that appear, in a WD? Was there fluff to go with it?

 Lynata wrote:
it seems to be more of a surgical strike rather than a battle of attrition. In fact, the army list accompanying the article did not even allow regular Battle Sisters - Celestians became the only Troop choice, Seraphim the only Fast Attack slot, and the Sisters' modified Deathwind Drop Pods the only Heavy Support!

Now, as you say, this might not apply in all cases and be dependent on the exact circumstances and the forces involved, but in my opinion it's a good indication, especially as standard operating procedure for such missions is for the Sisters to focus their assault on the Chapter's leadership "to disable the entire organisation from the top down".

That sounds about right, actually. Hit them hard where it hurts and then mop up the stragglers. Certainly sounds like a logical way to go about taking down a Marine Chapter, circumstances allowing.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

I don't see why the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't be able to acquire at least a few of those. They're just very well maintained and upgraded suits of power armour, right? The Ecclesiarchy is insanely rich and has plenty of influence, I'd imagine that upgrading some power armour is well within their capabilities.

No no obviously Sisters don't get access to Artificier Armour. They obviously drop it in a box just like chaos does when they betray the imperium so that the SM can make sure to have almost all the best things Come now brother of chaos! You should know now that SM get to claim all these little bits and goblets even when logically you should have them just as often as them.

Don't marines live 1000s of years with the studs in their foreheads denoting how many hundreds or thousands of years of service they've undergone? Do SoB live that long?

If they're more numerous and more powerful than space marines, why aren't they at the front lines, protecting the imperium?

Would a sister superior be able to go toe to toe with a chaptermaster? If a sister= a marine then a sister superior must be on part with Calgar, right?

The only marines that live for thousands of years are Chaos Space Marines and Dreadnoughts. Dante is one of the oldest marine and he's been commander for about 1100 years. At best he has probably lived.... 3000 years and even then I find that unlikely. And that's from a chapter that is known for having SM that live longer.

And, frankly, the frontline defense of the Imperium ain't the Space Marines. It's the Guard.

StarTrotter wrote:The only marines that live for thousands of years are Chaos Space Marines and Dreadnoughts. Dante is one of the oldest marine and he's been commander for about 1100 years. At best he has probably lived.... 3000 years and even then I find that unlikely.

The 6E rulebook puts him at 1.100 years of age, total - it also mentions Space Marines having an average biological lifespan of "two or three times longer than a normal man". (both bits of information found on page 181)

agnosto wrote:Don't marines live 1000s of years with the studs in their foreheads denoting how many hundreds or thousands of years of service they've undergone? Do SoB live that long?

Sisters are not genetically enhanced, but they may gain access to juvenat treatments prolonging their natural lifespan in a similar manner as the "built in" longevity of Astartes. Here is a GW example of a Canoness who has held her position as leader of her Order for nearly a hundred years.

That is, if they survive their combat deployments. The Major Orders supposedly have a rather high attrition rate. The Minor Orders are probably somewhat better off, just because they don't see combat as often - or rather, the combat they do see tends to be against cultists and mutants, whereas the Major Orders go fight xenos, daemons and renegade Marines.

agnosto wrote:If they're more numerous and more powerful than space marines, why aren't they at the front lines, protecting the imperium?

Going by this and this chart, they seem to be much, much less numerous than Marines. Both tables were originally from the Codex Eye of Terror and Codex Armageddon, but they've recently been reprinted in the 6E main rulebook too.

But who says they aren't at the front lines? The six Major Orders are constantly deploying and re-deploying their forces throughout the Imperium in response to a variety of crises. The many Minor Orders tend to be locally limited and less mobile, but generally whenever a convent of the Major Orders "converts" into its own Minor Order, there's a reason the garrison stayed. For example, here is one story about a Minor Order dedicated to fighting corruption and cult activity on a Hive World near the Cadian Gate (you'll note this is the same Minor Order that also shows up as a defensive element on one of the charts linked above).

[edit] But as curran12 correctly pointed out, the front lines of the Imperium are held by the Guard. Both the Space Marines as well as the Sisters of Battle are merely "helping out" in that regard.

agnosto wrote:Would a sister superior be able to go toe to toe with a chaptermaster? If a sister= a marine then a sister superior must be on part with Calgar, right?

Sisters Superior are squad leaders. The equivalent of a Chapter Master would be a Canoness.
As for being able to go toe to toe ... I'd say that depends heavily on the individual, for both the Sister and the Marine. Rank alone does not make them grow physically stronger compared to the rank-and-file of their organisation, but their many years of service will have granted them with valuable experience and skill, and their station may provide them with highly efficient wargear superior to that of their subordinate soldiers. This experience and equipment will differ even between Canoness and Canoness, or Chapter Master and Chapter Master. If someone like Praxedes can bash in a Hive Tyrant's head with her power maul, I'm not sure a Chapter Master would stand a much better chance. In GW's version of 40k, we even had Guardsmen strangling Chaos Marine Lords to death (Straken vs Rathatrax, Codex Planetstrike) - so excuse me if I say that the invulnerability of Space Marines as propagated by some gamers here may seem ... overrated at times.

But if you want to play it out, simulate a duel using the rules from the tabletop and see what happens. I'd say the Chapter Master has a better chance of winning, but coincidence as well as the wargear both characters bring to the fight could have tremendous impact on the fight.

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

I don't see why the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't be able to acquire at least a few of those. They're just very well maintained and upgraded suits of power armour, right? The Ecclesiarchy is insanely rich and has plenty of influence, I'd imagine that upgrading some power armour is well within their capabilities.

They did get Artificer armor for the Canoness/Palatine in the WH Codex, but after that it's out. Then again, that does fit the theme of humility and service - no one is raised above the others.

That probably also evens the playing field a bit. Every Sister wears an identical suit of well-crafted Power Armor, the best the Ecclesiarchy can buy (and the Ecclesiarchy is very very rich). SM often outfit their veterans with the oldest armor parts they can find in the armory. If it belonged to a great hero then some of his spirit might guide and protect the new wearer, never mind millenia of material fatigue, battle damage and shoddy repairs with scavenged parts. Any individual marine they encounter can be equipped with anything from a complete MK VII suit through one with a few exchanged parts all the way to a full frankensuit of old parts that may or may not work well together. Every Sister has equipment working at 100% baseline. A marine force might have no man's equipment at the same level of performance.

Spetulhu wrote:

 Troike wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

I don't see why the Ecclesiarchy wouldn't be able to acquire at least a few of those. They're just very well maintained and upgraded suits of power armour, right? The Ecclesiarchy is insanely rich and has plenty of influence, I'd imagine that upgrading some power armour is well within their capabilities.

They did get Artificer armor for the Canoness/Palatine in the WH Codex, but after that it's out. Then again, that does fit the theme of humility and service - no one is raised above the others.

That probably also evens the playing field a bit. Every Sister wears an identical suit of well-crafted Power Armor, the best the Ecclesiarchy can buy (and the Ecclesiarchy is very very rich). SM often outfit their veterans with the oldest armor parts they can find in the armory. If it belonged to a great hero then some of his spirit might guide and protect the new wearer, never mind millenia of material fatigue, battle damage and shoddy repairs with scavenged parts. Any individual marine they encounter can be equipped with anything from a complete MK VII suit through one with a few exchanged parts all the way to a full frankensuit of old parts that may or may not work well together. Every Sister has equipment working at 100% baseline. A marine force might have no man's equipment at the same level of performance.

That last part: You're implying Marines Armouries have the equivalent of an IG quartermaster maintaining these suits to a "She'll be right" standard. When in reality the Master of the Forge and his Techmarines are Mechanicum trained and experts at their craft. Artificier armour is most definitely not cobbled together from scavenged parts.

As for the main topic at hand: There's pretty much no way Sisters would match Marines 1-1. Faith is a game-mechanic designed to make the faction more flavourful and avoid it becoming "Imperial Faction #23842", in the fluff I don't really see Sisters' faith being that much more potent than Space Marines faith.

And we also know that SM obviously can run in, tank 1000 CSM, kill them all, and have enough time to slaughter 100000 orks whilst bathing in the blood of sisters with just a single marine! Simply put, the fluff is unreliable to say the least. Also, what about Saint Celestine? It seems kinda hard to think she has nothing to do with faith. Like she's a friggin winged reform... and heck, that's just that. The thing with the faith of SoB, is it is established upon the prospect of either magic thinking the emperor is god (and thus, unlike loyalist brothers that are more connected and often regard them as human) can make a gestalt of devotion to do the impossible, oooor you can go for the one that is that faith is magic to the untrained eye. The fluff openly mentions the acts of faith but hint that it is by using the innate potential of humans that we don't use. We don't punch at full force because it would hurt us. But sisters? They go full force due to their willpower of faith. SM are super fueled genetically changed entities that have given up their humanity (bar arguably Salamanders and possible unkown successors). Faith of such sort won't really do anything. Their body is maxed out whilst the human being can rise and fall for a short moment of might. Also, there is nothing more terrifying then that of a furious woman. They have the pain tolerance, they have the fury, and if my mom has anything to go by, they are a better marksman

EDIT: Oh and don't forget the guardsman that have killed marines in single handed combat.

Sisters are designed, and trained, to be a close fire support force. (All the better to burn the witch) The fact that they are on par - roughly - with a Space Marine when it comes to shooting and have none of the advantages of the super human space marine (Increased depth perception, hand eye coordination, faster reaction times, vision and strength - for recoil) means that those girls train very hard.

The fact is that they're both equipped with roughly the same type of bolter and both are roughly equal in shooting ability means that they each have a fair chance of killing each other in a fire fight.

A 95 milimetre automatic rocket propelled grenade launcher will do more damage to a normal human than to an enhanced marine even if their armour is roughly comparable. (Sisters pattern armour lacks many of the upgrades MK. VII Marine armour has, like strength enhancements and the interface for the black carapace, but it does look better, so that's something.)

So, the edge goes to the Marine on that, even if only slightly.

In every other way a Marine is better, tougher, stronger, faster and since they live a gak ton longer (Provided an ork doesn't rip their head off) Marines have a longer time to ply their trade.

Sisters have to focus on shooting since they don't have the ability to spread it out as much as Marines do and killing people from afar is safer, if a little bit less glorious.

Plus Marines can act as a much more independent force, they have their own fleet, most have their own manufactorums to keep them supplied, they have an air force and a semi holy writ saying that no power in the Imperium can mess with them unless they really step out of line.

Sisters have to rely upon the Imperial Navy for transportation and air power, the mechanicum for supplies (Or the Ministorium, depending on if they have the manufacturing power) along with having a much more limited mission statement and general objectives.

Marines, needing to respond to a wider variety of threats have access to a much wider range of weaponry and equipment. Plasma and Grav weaponry, plus bikes, terminator armour, anti-aircraft weaponry, drop pods, scouts, speeders and the like so they have the speed and ability to outmaneuver the Sisters.

As for Acts of Faith, it seems to operate as a low level psychic field similar to an Ork waaaagh charge but on a smaller scale and of different functionality. Marines have the ability to field a fair number of powerful witches, while the Sisters have the innate ability to be more resistant to their wicked ways. Still, chain lightning is chain lightning.

On the whole, Sisters aren't equal to Marines except in devotion to their mission and ability to shoot your entire torso off with a rapidfire RPG.

In a city fight situation I think I'd rather have the Sisters though, they seem to have a knack for close range fire power and an organization designed to have as much flame based weaponry as possible.


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Also, a guardsman could kill a marine in single combat. Just because they're one of the most effective killing machines ever created doesn't mean they're not vulnerable to a lucky hit or a bit of a trip and fall.


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Also, in all conflicts I'd rather have the unstoppable, foe crushing weight of the Imperial guard.

I've always been curious if Salamanders and SoB would get long. Flamers and meltas.... oh the roasting!

Also it's: Lucky hit, trip and fall, experience and whits.

And I'll give you that I'd much rather the crushing might of the IG+IN over some bloody wolves, or marines, or vampires, or sisters (no tthat they aren't cool or anything)

 Lynata wrote:
da001: Thanks for the novel excerpt - so much for the hearsay.
Although the Sisters not having auto-senses is another small deviation from Codex fluff, of course. But such contradictions are to be expected in 40k; what is more remarkable is that this author apparently portrayed them in a more-capable-than-usual-for-BL way, even though they were just sidekicks (from how I understand the plot).

My pleasure.
It is very rare indeed to see the Sisters portrayed in any way.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
So...

Then Black Templars must be really OP?

Superfaith + Superhuman = Super-super-warrior?

Their faith even has an impact gamewise (Crusader & AW special rules- Sisters get SoF and AoF instead of Crusader, perhaps more appropriate for them)

So a BT would easily kick the ass of any other Space Marine because they are Space Marines + the advantages of SoB?

Why so? Templars are 14 points each, just like Ultramarines. The better training of the Ultras compensate any advantages Templars can get.

Also, I don´t get this "super-super-warrior". All factions kick ass. Sisters being 12 points does not mean that Marines Vs Sisters is a one-sided battle.

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 Lynata wrote:

On top of Codex quotes such as the Sisters being "exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter", there is the Inferno Pistol as one example of archaeotech, not to mention relics such as the Armour of Saint Katherine.

Gravguns.
Conversion Beamers.
Centurion Warsuits.
Terminator Armour. (Why the feth doesn't the Sisters have their own mini-Terminators yet? That would be awesome. On the other hand, boobplate-Terminators, which GW inevitably would design them as, would look stupid.)
Artificier Armour. (Okay, Celestine has it. Who else?)

Inferno pistols, Exorcist Tanks, Penitent Engines, Dominica Drop Pods, Incarcerators... we know the Sisters have access to lots of technology, but their Codex is hilariously small.

It is the same with Chaos Space Marines. They are supposed to have lots of stuff yet this is not there in the Codex. Drop pods to begin with.

For the Space Marines, it is the contrary. Bloodcrusher cavalry with World Eaters (Brazen knights) are awesome? We take them out from chaos and give it to the Space Marines as "Thunderwolf cavalry". Celestine is awesome? We rename her Sanguinor and there we go, a new unit for marines. Grav guns for the Squats are awesome? The Squats are no more... here is a new weapon for marines. Every single toy eventually make it to marines.

 agnosto wrote:
Don't marines live 1000s of years with the studs in their foreheads denoting how many hundreds or thousands of years of service they've undergone? Do SoB live that long?

Space marines do not live that long. Blood Angels (and Dante) are exceptions.

If they're more numerous and more powerful than space marines, why aren't they at the front lines, protecting the imperium?

1) They are less numerous. Depending on the source, it may be a 10:1 ration Marines:Sisters.
2) They are at the front lines, protecting the Imperium, all of them. But the Imperium is big and Sisters are few in numbers.
3) They are not more powerful. They are described as "equal", yet it is hinted that Marines are better. The 12 points vs 14 points thing gives a good idea.

I find it interesting that most these "marines versus x" threads follow a common path:
First step: people post that marines are awesome so they surely will utterly destroy the other faction with no effort whatsoever.
Second step: someone start pointing that the background says otherwise, with all factions being presented as really powerful.
Third step: the same people that claimed that marines were a million times better now says "so X are more powerful than marines!!!". When did anybody say that Sisters were better than Marines?

Would a sister superior be able to go toe to toe with a chaptermaster? If a sister= a marine then a sister superior must be on part with Calgar, right?

A Sister Superior is the equivalent to a Sargeant.

A better comparison would be between Praxedes or Prioress Helena and Calgar.
Stats:
Praxedes: 6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10 122 points.
Helena: 5 5 4 4 3 5 3 10 160 points.
Calgar: 6 5 4 4 4 5 4 10 more than 100 points over Helena. I think there is a rule here about giving points for units currently in game.

Given that most their power comes from Special Rules and Gear, I think the points will give you who is the most powerful character.
More characters:
Vulcan He´Stan: about 50 points more than Helena.
Tigurius: near Helena.
Cassius: between Helena and Praxedes.
Kor´Sharro Khan: near Praxedes.

See? It is easy to draw comparisons. We are provided a specific tool for that.

 curran12 wrote:
And, frankly, the frontline defense of the Imperium ain't the Space Marines. It's the Guard.

A million times this.

From any possible point of view, Imperial Guard >>>>>>>>>>> anyone else regarding "defending the Imperium as a frontline defense".

 Celtic Strike wrote:
(..) (stuff I agree with)
Also, a guardsman could kill a marine in single combat. Just because they're one of the most effective killing machines ever created doesn't mean they're not vulnerable to a lucky hit or a bit of a trip and fall.

Also, in all conflicts I'd rather have the unstoppable, foe crushing weight of the Imperial guard.

Exactly.
Sisters and Marines are elite troops. At the end the guard keep the Imperium going on.

MarsNZ wrote:

As for the main topic at hand: There's pretty much no way Sisters would match Marines 1-1. Faith is a game-mechanic designed to make the faction more flavourful and avoid it becoming "Imperial Faction #23842", in the fluff I don't really see Sisters' faith being that much more potent than Space Marines faith.

Which fluff are you referring to?

It is not videogames: Dawn of War depicts Sisters as roughly equal to Marines.
It is not books. Black Library books depicts Sisters as roughly equal to Marines.
It is not the Codex: the Codex says "equal to Marines".

So what is this "fluff" you talk about? I heard of a RPG system that openly stated that Sisters were inferior. But could you provide some additional information?

 StarTrotter wrote:
I've always been curious if Salamanders and SoB would get long. Flamers and meltas.... oh the roasting!

Yes they do!
During the Third War for Armaggedon, Sisters and Salamanders helped each other, something odd for Space Marines (who have a think for fighting their own way), and both factions gained each other´s respect.

Well Salamanders are a bit of an oddity in terms of mannerisms.... What's that? Blood Angels want to go vanquishing the hordes? Ultramarines went to defend the hive cities? What do the Salamanders do? They do the essential but neglected job of protecting supply convoys, fighting rearguard actions and escorting refugees.

But huzzah!

EDIT: How could I! I forgot all about the Promethean War where Celestine popped up to save the order of the ebon chalice and Salamanders that fought back and back derp

BrianDavion wrote:


or feesable not kill the other as boltguns aren't nesscarily the ideal "power armor popper"

Real Sisters don't use Bolters

 da001 wrote:

Praxedes: 6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10 122 points.

Wow, does this really exist?

BS7? T5? I6?

And I thought Straken was cringeworthy.


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Besides, if faith-training was so effective so it was able to compensate for extremely expensive surgery, 'conventional' training, and equipment, wouldn't some of the smarter Marine chapters realise that 'Hey, maybe we should do that too?'

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Praxedes: 6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10 122 points.

Wow, does this really exist?

Yes, in 2nd edition. Comparing 2nd edition characters to 6th edition characters is a bit flawed.

 StarTrotter wrote:
The only marines that live for thousands of years are Chaos Space Marines and Dreadnoughts. Dante is one of the oldest marine and he's been commander for about 1100 years. At best he has probably lived.... 3000 years and even then I find that unlikely. And that's from a chapter that is known for having SM that live longer.

You're right. I can't seem to lock down a number but the studs in their skulls seem to denote anywhere from 50-100 years of service. Odd. I read a couple of the Horus Heresy books and the first one talked about how marines could technically live until killed. I've been playing the game for 20+ years and the fluff changes so much and contradicts itself depending upon who writes it....

I guess I still don't get it. I play Tau and I know when you read the fluff for any faction they look like they could take on the entire 40k universe and win; that's why people collect the armies to begin with. If the fluff said, "No SoB would ever be able to beat a space marine, ever." Who'd want to play them? Fluff stories aside though, think about it. You've got power armor which just enhances the natural strength and endurance of the wearer. You could put PA on a really strong, athletic 6' tall unenhanced amazon and she'd still be much weaker than an 8-foot tall superhuman who was created by the gawd-emprah of mankind to be a perfect soldier. A giant in power armor who was designed to go beyond the realm of human physical possibility; the same power armor that increases the unenhanced super-athletic amazon's strength makes this monster into a comparative incredible hulk. That's just in the strength department, the emperor didn't stop there when he was designing his children.

Like I said, I play Tau; I'd love for the super-awesome nuns and the super-awesome marines to wipe each other out.

 agnosto wrote:

 StarTrotter wrote:
The only marines that live for thousands of years are Chaos Space Marines and Dreadnoughts. Dante is one of the oldest marine and he's been commander for about 1100 years. At best he has probably lived.... 3000 years and even then I find that unlikely. And that's from a chapter that is known for having SM that live longer.

You're right. I can't seem to lock down a number but the studs in their skulls seem to denote anywhere from 50-100 years of service. Odd. I read a couple of the Horus Heresy books and the first one talked about how marines could technically live until killed. I've been playing the game for 20+ years and the fluff changes so much and contradicts itself depending upon who writes it....

I guess I still don't get it. I play Tau and I know when you read the fluff for any faction they look like they could take on the entire 40k universe and win; that's why people collect the armies to begin with. If the fluff said, "No SoB would ever be able to beat a space marine, ever." Who'd want to play them? Fluff stories aside though, think about it. You've got power armor which just enhances the natural strength and endurance of the wearer. You could put PA on a really strong, athletic 6' tall unenhanced amazon and she'd still be much weaker than an 8-foot tall superhuman who was created by the gawd-emprah of mankind to be a perfect soldier. A giant in power armor who was designed to go beyond the realm of human physical possibility; the same power armor that increases the unenhanced super-athletic amazon's strength makes this monster into a comparative incredible hulk. That's just in the strength department, the emperor didn't stop there when he was designing his children.

Like I said, I play Tau; I'd love for the super-awesome nuns and the super-awesome marines to wipe each other out.

Well that is until they deal with the mighty orks, mad genestealers, hulking beasts, and the daemonic incursions.... or two .

Well why would you play Tau? Technically, you are the weakest army of the ones that got represented. If the Imperium, if Chaos, if Necrons, if pretty much any faction even looked at you funny, you would be swept away. But they can't put that effort in... in part because their arrogance blinds them... and in part because they simply cannot afford to bring enough resources to counter them. The Imperium could certainly crush them..... but if they did, that would mean that Chaos and every xenos faction would rip them apart. So they ignore the growing might of the Tau as they grow more and more of a threat each passing year, decade, millenia. And why what do sisters have? They are nuns that love to wield flamers, ignore the magic of psykers because they simply will it, and they are the peak of being human without going through extensive genetic modifications. They are faitfhul, loyal, and dedicated. They have the baroque, cathedral theming written all over them. The torches, the churches... In reality, Space Marines and Sisters of Battle are a part of a system. In the end, Imperial Guardsman are the unsung heroes that fight onwards despite all odds, sacficing thousands, millions, billions of lives even to make the line push the enemy forces even an inch back. Yet the marines and sisters inspire them. When the guard are fighting orks, there is claim that many a regiment and pdf force fight onwards because any moment the raven guard might come to help them fight back the hordes of xenos. SM and SoB bring in a quick, independent, mobile, tactically flexible group of elite units that are best capable of assassination of high ranking targets and quick guard forces capable of being immediate responders to the enemy yet neither faction would be able to wage a crusade on their own unlike the guardsman that could very easily do such a thing.

And yes, you don't know how much I am hoping that the Sisterhood will finally get plastic and not cost almost 75 or so dollars for only 10 troops. As soon as it drops, I think I'm going to make myself a little Sisters of Battle minor. probably place it close to the boundaries of the tau empire. Obviously those poor individuals need some... inspiration *slowly slides finger along a flamer* And I must admit.... I haven't had fish sticks in a looong time.... *licks lips*

Yeah. There are countless, "Here is how the IoM would destroy the Tau in a heartbeat" threads. All true if each faction didn't have its own plot armor.

So, in that long narrative about the destruction of the Tau, did I miss the part where you address how a sister is on part with a marine? I get it from a fluff standpoint but the logic escapes me. If tech and armaments are the same then it just boils down to physical fortitude and strength and I think the Marines have a decided edge there.

 agnosto wrote:
Yeah. There are countless, "Here is how the IoM would destroy the Tau in a heartbeat" threads. All true if each faction didn't have its own plot armor.

So, in that long narrative about the destruction of the Tau, did I miss the part where you address how a sister is on part with a marine? I get it from a fluff standpoint but the logic escapes me. If tech and armaments are the same then it just boils down to physical fortitude and strength and I think the Marines have a decided edge there.

Hey! But I also mentioned they are the underdog that each day grow stonger I like them for that. In a grimdark world where almost no progress is made they continue to churn onwards. That was more to your question of why people would want to play SoB. Oh you meant that the fluff might conflate them to be equal to a marine when they really aren't? If so, my apologies I mistook your statement.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Sisters have to rely upon the Imperial Navy for transportation and air power

Not necessarily, their 2E codex mentions that Major Orders have their own corvettes to help them get around.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
Marines, needing to respond to a wider variety of threats

Sisters would need to respond to a wide variety of threats too. Remember, one of their main jobs is to defend Ecclesiarchy territory and to beat up anybody who might be inconviniencing the Ecclesiarchy, and that could involve fighting basically anything. Tyranids attacking a shrine world? The Sisters get sent in. Orks? Chaos Marines? Eldar? Lost and Damned? Sisters could go up against it all. Really, anything the Marines face can also be faced by the Sisters, and there's plenty of codex stories of Sisters fighting a wide range of foes.

 Celtic Strike wrote:
As for Acts of Faith, it seems to operate as a low level psychic field similar to an Ork waaaagh charge

Nope, nothing psychic about it, according to these codex quotes:

"The Sisters of Battle are taught that faith is a shield stronger than any armour. Such is the power of their belief that the Emperor will protect them that the Adepta Sororitas can shrug off the most severe of wounds and resist the witchcraft of enemy sorcerers."

- 6E AS codex

"The Sisters of Battle can draw upon the wellspring of their faith to guide their actions. Absolute belief in the Imperial Creed allows Sisters of Battle to perform the seemingly impossible."

- 5E WD codex

For millennia, the Sisters have practiced their unique method of war, combining combat doctrine and prayer which enables them to accomplish feats upon the battlefield that appear miraculous to the unschooled

- 3E WH codex

So, they've been consistently heavily implying that it's just their belief that drives them on, not psychic power.

 Lynata wrote:
II'm surprised you've never seen it, considering I'm sure you'd be super-interested in this:

I never really got deep into the fluff until I came here, bud, so I don't really known the older, more obscure stuff. Before I only had the basic understanding of it all, along with some BL books and DoW games.

 StarTrotter wrote:
I've always been curious if Salamanders and SoB would get long. Flamers and meltas.... oh the roasting!

They sure do! Apart form the thing that da001 mentioned, the AS codex also has a story where the Salamanders and SoB team up. It has them merrily spamming flame weapons everywhere and fighting back to back against a horde of possessed Chaos Marines.

Yeah! It is the Promethean war. Salamanders fighting CSM and daemons (and probably cultists versus guardsman in the surroundings). The ebon chalice comes in and they join up immolators and redemption land raiders blazing trails, flamers and melts charring the very air. Then the leading daemon prince rises up and hammers in. Hope seems lost as Sister and Brother stand back and back before saint celestine appears and personally slays/banishes him back to the warp. With that, they redouble their efforts and end victorious. Speaking of which, that fluff is a good example. The Adeptus sororitas came in and supported the SM to fight a daemon prince and his warband of chaos. They fought back and back in a way no normal human could. The sisters, overall, might not be just as tough, nor as physically strong. They might not be genetically modified mutant... but they don't have to be that to make a difference. They have been trained since youth, have become the pinnacle of human without genetic modification. Most importantly, for a short moment, through sheer force of faith and willpower, they can unlock the hidden potential of the human body and for that short moment surpass even a Space Marine. Of course, that is my interpretation. It is kind of funny. When I didn't care about SoB, I just said psykers and the warp but as I grew to like them more and more I ended up liking them just unleashing the willpower of humanity.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Praxedes: 6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10 122 points.

Wow, does this really exist?

BS7? T5? I6?

And I thought Straken was cringeworthy.

Praxedes killed a Hive Tyrant in close combat without any help and broke a massive tyranid attack, "buying the thousands of refugees fleeing from the conflict the time needed to evacuate the planet". Among other things. In a time when Ulrick gained the admiration of both the Wolves and the World Eaters by killing three (3) khorne berserkers.

What did you expect? She is the Marneus Calgar of the Sisters.

If see had made it into 6th, she would have killed one or two Avatars or Bloodthirsters. All factions are described like that. I always fail to get the "Sisters are similar in the game but inferior because of the fluff": the fluff for the Sisters is completely over the top.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Besides, if faith-training was so effective so it was able to compensate for extremely expensive surgery, 'conventional' training, and equipment, wouldn't some of the smarter Marine chapters realise that 'Hey, maybe we should do that too?'

Easy.
1) Keep in mind that they are still BELOW Marines skill. What would be the point?
2) Training is the same. Perhaps better for the Sisters, since they have been trained since birth. Novices are 12 years old, a full Battle Sister 18. What is this "conventional training" you mentioned?
3) Equipment is (arguably) better. It is the same gear, but with far more money. Sisters are buried in their power armour. Sure, some Chapters have excellent technology, but most of them are highly independent from the Imperium. They keep recycling and patching everything.
4) Some chapters "do that": have faith in the Emperor to the point that it significantly improves their battle prowess. Templars, to say but one. As a result, a Templar (14 points) is as good as an Ultramarine (14 points), in spite of the far superior training the Ultramarines have.

 Weltenwolf wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Praxedes: 6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10 122 points.

Wow, does this really exist?

Yes, in 2nd edition. Comparing 2nd edition characters to 6th edition characters is a bit flawed.

True.

Praxedes: 6 7 4 5 3 6 4 10 122 points.
Helena: 5 5 4 4 3 5 3 10 160 points.

Calgar 2nd edition: 8 8 5 5 4 8 4 10 116 points + 18 points gear (gauntlets): 134 points.
Cassius 2nd edition: 6 6 5 5 2 6 2 9 75 points.
Tigurius 2nd edition: 7 7 5 5 4 7 3 9 199 points + 65 points gear (psy-weapon and hood). 264 points.

Keep in mind that heros can take two extra wargear cards.
Calgar: went from "between Praxedes and Helena" to "over 100 points over Helena". He is far more expensive now.
Cassius: went from "far, far cheaper than Praxedes" to "between Praxedes and Helena". He is far more expensive now.
Tigurius: went for "over 100 points over Helena" to "near Helena". He is far cheaper now. I am assuming this is because the "psyker" rule.

Following this, I think Praxedes and Helena in 5th edition would be similarly costed than Space Marines heros.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

And I thought Straken was cringeworthy.
'

Why?

 Bobthehero wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

And I thought Straken was cringeworthy.
'

Why?

Because he has a bionic arm that makes him as strong as a Dreadknight?

Uh, S6, 8 on the charge, its basically a powerfist.

I think he is more a machine that a man. Lots of bionics, not only the arm.

And he is Catachan, perhaps the most over the top fluff ever written: they get a 5+ save from a T-shirt and kill orks in close combat.

da001 wrote:I heard of a RPG system that openly stated that Sisters were inferior. But could you provide some additional information?

Prolly FFG's line of RPG systems. It deviates from GW's fluff on a number of details, such as the Deathwatch not being a part of the Inquisition, or the Vostroyan Firstborn not only including sons but also daughters, or individual Storm Troopers joining grunt squads, or Assassinorum Operatives permanently attached to Inquisitors, or Space Marines getting equipment that is +20% better than anyone elses (including the Inquisition).

It is perhaps noteworthy that this development only started after FFG took over from the now-defunct Black Industries studio, for the first Dark Heresy books published by BI still gave Marines equal gear and had Sisters be a rare force with ambiguous AoF. Then FFG gained the license, Marines got bumped up in power, and the amount of Sisters in the game's fluff centuplicated whilst simultaneously describing them as less awesome (they can fight "even" renegade Guard and Orks) and giving them clear space magic such as shooting beams of light out of their friggin' eyes.

Yeah.

BrotherHaraldus wrote:Besides, if faith-training was so effective so it was able to compensate for extremely expensive surgery, 'conventional' training, and equipment, wouldn't some of the smarter Marine chapters realise that 'Hey, maybe we should do that too?'

The thing is that Battle Sisters are indoctrinated from birth; they never had a normal life or a family aside from their Order, they literally are "blank slates" filled with propaganda and a grueling training regime. Space Marines, on the other hand, recruit new members at the age of 10-12, up to which point they will have led a normal life that they remember.

In theory, the Space Marines could perhaps start taking in recruits the moment they are born as well, but unlike the Adepta Sororitas, who is capable of drawing on the galaxy-wide network of Ecclesiarchal Schola Progenium facilities, the Astartes Chapters are limited to the one world (or small number of worlds, in case of some orgs like the Ultras) they have been granted as a fief, and it is difficult enough to find someone compatible to their geneseed even before applying any of the specific Chapter's additional requirements. So, they'd either have to recruit any newborn whose genetic makeup is compatible with the Chapter's geneseed and let them live and train in gigantic academy compounds similar to the Schola for about a decade until they can become Neophytes (which sounds like a hilariously complex and resource-intensive undertaking) or they'd have to take a number of newborns equal to what they think their Chapter will need in 10 year's time into their Chapter Fortress and just hope that these recruits won't suck later on, given that they cannot afford to have them fail any additional tests - like the Sisters can when the Schola simply assigns a child to another Imperial Adeptus when the girl doesn't fulfill the Sisterhood's extreme requirements.

And then there is this paradox:
- The smarter Space Marine Chapters do not believe in the Emperor being a god, because they are too smart to fall for this superstitious nonsense (aside from the Machine Spirit crap the AdMech seems to have successfully sold everyone on)
- Yet belief in the Emperor being a god, and thus being able to grant His servants supernatural protection from evil and harm, is a requirement to "unlock" the believer's potential

... and that's aside from my earlier theory of the Space Marines already running so close to what the human body is capable of that they just cannot boost it even further.

Troike wrote:Not necessarily, their 2E codex mentions that Major Orders have their own corvettes to help them get around.

That was the Codex Imperialis, actually!

The 2E SoB Codex doesn't mention anything about how they get around, sadly. In fact, none of the Codices does. It's one of the "big unknowns" that is rarely even hinted at, allowing for so much interpretation.
It should be kept in mind that a whole lot of other Imperial institutions have their own ships, too. Due to the Guard's fluff, a lot of people tend to believe that only the Navy and the Marines have starships, yet the AdMech, the Inquisition, even the Adeptus Arbites has its own fleets. The Ecclesiarchy used to, as well, until the Age of Apostasy and the Decree Passive. It's worth pointing out that the Adepta Sororitas were granted exemption from said Decree, so any starship ban would not apply to them. Their very purpose is to grant the Ministorum a degree of independence from other Imperial organisations - and personally I'd assume this includes the Navy. Their role as internal police and purity enforcement would also suffer from having to ask for passage all the time when individual Navy officers are much more likely to be loyal to some (potentially rogue) Cardinal rather than the AS.

Troike wrote:Nope, nothing psychic about it, according to these codex quotes: [...]

Or even more obvious, the rules for GW's Inquisitor game:

"No Adepta Sororitas character will ever have psychic powers of any sort."

That being said, personally I believe Celestine to be a notable exception - in that she is actually a benign Warp entity conjured by the intense faith/emotions of crusading Sisters and zealous Frateris Militia during a time of crisis.
Other possible explanations I've heard over the years are mass-hallucination, propaganda, or archaeotech disguised as the Emperor's doing for the purpose of morale. There's a lot of room for interpretation concerning this character.

Troike wrote:I never really got deep into the fluff until I came here, bud, so I don't really known the older, more obscure stuff. Before I only had the basic understanding of it all, along with some BL books and DoW games.

Sure, sure. I just thought you had caught on in the meantime. You seem to have soaked up a whole lot of information since you came here, and I had mentioned the Strike Force article a number of times. Guess we just missed each other on those occasions, then!

Space Marines remember little to nothing of their previous lives, although it seems to vary by Chapter.

Omegus wrote:Space Marines remember little to nothing of their previous lives, although it seems to vary by Chapter.

Probably also depending on who writes a source. By now I've seen several interpretations of what hypno-indoctrination means, for example, from simple Clone Trooper-like "flash training" all the way to full scale brainwashing. Personally, I'd much rather subscribe to the latter as well, if only because indoctrination removes Sisters and Marines further from the ordinary soldiers like the men and women of the Imperial Guard. Call it a sense of "narrative balance", if you will: the more powerful you are, the more of your humanity you have to sacrifice. It's what makes me appreciate the Guard as an army more, in spite of, or perhaps because of their underdog role.

And that's to say nothing of the Salamanders, who are regular parts of the towns and societies that they came from even after they are made into Marines. It would seem that the indoctrination is not as evenly applied with Marines as with Sorotias.