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 SilverMK2 wrote:
But hey, they are not my children being shot, nor is it likely that my family will be gunned down in the street, or at the shops... I don't fear that kind of thing and I don't need a gun to feel that kind of safety.

Even so Silver, I walk down the street, I go to stores, etc... and I don't fear that I'm going to be gunned down by someone looking for a few twenties, or accidentally, etc... Albeit my handgun is used for home defense, and stays in its case in my room. We have a home security system that will wake me up when it goes off, my gun is there because my parents are nearing 70, and I know that in most cases I could not overpower someone that really wished to cause my family harm/was willing to fight back in case I caught them breaking and entering.

But your average American doesn't go around in constant fear that they're going to get shot at.

 Alexzandvar wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:
You do know that the police are under no obligation to protect you?


http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1976377/posts

Which is why I chose to exercise my right to self protection.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:
The prevention has to occur BEFORE the event begins. Use of a firearm is because of a failure of the system. Denying innocents the ability to address this failure (ie access to firearms) is unconscionable - that is what Gun Free Zones represent.

So how does one prevent things? Stricter gun control and checks before gun/ammo purchases to make sure the person buying them is not barred for some reason (being a criminal, having mental health issues, etc?)? Have stricter laws on gun storage and transport (such as a requirement for use of gun safes in houses and cars) so it is more difficult for theives to get hold of your gun(s)? Tie in gun "blacklist" events more closely so that a routine check upon attempted purchase will flag up at the store, preventing sale? Closure of gun shop loopholes? A requirement for private sales to go through a check similar to gun stores? For gun registration as there is with cars, where you have to inform once you have had a gun stolen, sold, or destroyed? More effort to detecting, preventing and curing mental health issues? Allowing guns to be carried everywhere?

The majority of the "gun control" measures are a hell of a lot more practical than many of the "solve it with more guns" measures...

Dont be ridiculous. Criminals dont buy their guns legally. Restrictions dont mean a damn thing to them. Except maybe raise the price for a hot piece.

But then again, the UK has chosen to allow themselves to be disarmed. Easy enough to do on a tiny island I suppose. Here in the US, the pesky Constitution enumerates the right of self protection against criminals.

Except that almost all mass shooters and school shooters in the recent decade all obtained there firearms legally with almost no background checks because there is no unified system in the united states for collecting information on people to check things when it comes to records.

Oh wait there are, but we don't have laws forcing gun stores to actually use those data bases, although I will give you we have no unified mental health check system.

And why do you bring up the point that police technically don't have to help you? Are you implying that because of the 1 in a million chance of the officer on hand chickening out we need to arm people?

How desperate is that.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also it is very hard to obtain guns illegally in countries with good background check systems, because it allows police and other agencys to check if you actually, yknow got that gun legally.

We don't have a unified system for that here.

WOW, so misinformed.

There's a thing called the BATF that would love to have a word with you.

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Enjoy your pristine bubble.

I and about 739,165,030 other people do. You should try it - it's great!

 whembly wrote:

 Alexzandvar wrote:

America is by far one of the most paranoid countries outside of the far east. We have historically always treated foreigners like crap,

Have any proof of that? Maybe we can ask some expatriot Dakkanauts who's currently living in the states.

I moved here from Ireland and I haven't experienced that. I've found the US to be pretty welcoming so far

 Alfndrate wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
But hey, they are not my children being shot, nor is it likely that my family will be gunned down in the street, or at the shops... I don't fear that kind of thing and I don't need a gun to feel that kind of safety.

Even so Silver, I walk down the street, I go to stores, etc... and I don't fear that I'm going to be gunned down by someone looking for a few twenties, or accidentally, etc... Albeit my handgun is used for home defense, and stays in its case in my room. We have a home security system that will wake me up when it goes off, my gun is there because my parents are nearing 70, and I know that in most cases I could not overpower someone that really wished to cause my family harm/was willing to fight back in case I caught them breaking and entering.

It may just be the fear and paranoia some posters here... erm... clearly aren't suffering from... that I am referencing

I don't really have an issue with gun ownership - I do have an issue with almost complete lack of control over the sale and use of them though.

But your average American doesn't go around in constant fear that they're going to get shot at.

Clearly not, or they would all be packing heat so they were magically protected from all harm

But hey, they are not my children being shot, nor is it likely that my family will be gunned down in the street, or at the shops... I don't fear that kind of thing and I don't need a gun to feel that kind of safety.

So the UK has risen above the need of smoke detectors and fire extinguishers?


It's not fear, it's preparedness.


[

I don't really have an issue with gun ownership - I do have an issue with almost complete lack of control over the sale and use of them though.

Demonstrably, you do.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
So how does one prevent things? Stricter gun control and checks before gun/ammo purchases to make sure the person buying them is not barred for some reason (being a criminal, having mental health issues, etc?)?

Those exist. You ought to check out how many of the guns used in such incidents were purchased legally.

Have stricter laws on gun storage and transport (such as a requirement for use of gun safes in houses and cars) so it is more difficult for theives to get hold of your gun(s)?

These guns aren't coming from the black market. Plenty of guns used in the actual crimes that drive up the firearm homicide rate are, but nobody's talking about those.

Tie in gun "blacklist" events more closely so that a routine check upon attempted purchase will flag up at the store, preventing sale?

That's the NICS system. It works. It works in that it stops someone not allowed to own a gun from buying one. It still takes the state to prosecute an attempt to do so, and in the overwhelming majority of cases, such prosecution doesn't occur.

Closure of gun shop loopholes?

No such thing.

A requirement for private sales to go through a check similar to gun stores?

If you can show me this'd make a dent, sure. I actually don't have a problem with it either way, but I understand the opposition - the anti-gun movement works like the anti-abortion movement. They try and advance in increments, and if you give them an inch, they'll try to take a mile.

The majority of the "gun control" measures are a hell of a lot more practical than many of the "solve it with more guns" measures...

They really aren't. Exactly nothing you suggested would've stopped a mass shooting in recent memory.

 whembly wrote:

 Alexzandvar wrote:

America is by far one of the most paranoid countries outside of the far east. We have historically always treated foreigners like crap,

Have any proof of that? Maybe we can ask some expatriot Dakkanauts who's currently living in the states.

continue to use American Exceptionalism to continue to teach our kids fascist ideas of us being superior over others.

What. The. feth. o.O

We make all our kids in school pledge themselves to the country everyday.

Why is this a bad thing again?

So yes we are a paraniod society, and the simple fact there is so much outrage about simple background checks is more than proof enough.

What is this "simple background checks" are you talking about? We already have that. Are you talking about more stringent forms of gun controls? If so... it isn't "paranoia"...

Do you know how the Irish were treated when they first got here? How Latino immigrants are treated now? How the Japanese Americans were during WW2? Not very well

American Exceptionalism is a product of the early 1900's during a rise in nationalism amongst western society, it ties into manifest destiny and the idea that America and our freedom makes us naturally superior to all others. While europes national fascist tendencys were quashed by WW1 and 2 ours never went away, and even got worse post WW2.

American Exceptionalism got even worse during the Cold War as it was used as a weapon to promote fear of communism and the Eastern Blocks.

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't really have an issue with gun ownership - I do have an issue with almost complete lack of control over the sale and use of them though.

You do realise that there are background checks on firearm sales, right?

 Spacemanvic wrote:
It's not fear, it's preparedness.

Use fallacies much?

I take it you have disconnected the airbags, ABS and lights on your car because you've never had a crash too...

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:
It's not fear, it's preparedness.

Use fallacies much?

I take it you have disconnected the airbags, ABS and lights on your car because you've never had a crash too...

That's the exact reverse analogy, actually.

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't really have an issue with gun ownership - I do have an issue with almost complete lack of control over the sale and use of them though.

You do realise that there are background checks on firearm sales, right?

You do realise that gun deaths and gun crime in the USA puts it right up there with countries actively at war?

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
But hey, they are not my children being shot, nor is it likely that my family will be gunned down in the street, or at the shops... I don't fear that kind of thing and I don't need a gun to feel that kind of safety.

Even so Silver, I walk down the street, I go to stores, etc... and I don't fear that I'm going to be gunned down by someone looking for a few twenties, or accidentally, etc... Albeit my handgun is used for home defense, and stays in its case in my room. We have a home security system that will wake me up when it goes off, my gun is there because my parents are nearing 70, and I know that in most cases I could not overpower someone that really wished to cause my family harm/was willing to fight back in case I caught them breaking and entering.

It may just be the fear and paranoia some posters here... erm... clearly aren't suffering from... that I am referencing

I don't really have an issue with gun ownership - I do have an issue with almost complete lack of control over the sale and use of them though.

What lack of control? Are you talking about private owners giving/selling their weapons to another private individual?

But your average American doesn't go around in constant fear that they're going to get shot at.

Clearly not, or they would all be packing heat so they were magically protected from all harm

*sigh*
Don't you think you're making an uninformed decision here? Come visit us... it'll be fun... we won't bite... much.

 Seaward wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:
It's not fear, it's preparedness.

Use fallacies much?

I take it you have disconnected the airbags, ABS and lights on your car because you've never had a crash too...

That's the exact reverse analogy, actually.

Yes... I know...

 Spacemanvic wrote:

But hey, they are not my children being shot, nor is it likely that my family will be gunned down in the street, or at the shops... I don't fear that kind of thing and I don't need a gun to feel that kind of safety.

So the UK has risen above the need of smoke detectors and fire extinguishers?


It's not fear, it's preparedness.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Enjoy your pristine bubble.

I and about 739,165,030 other people do. You should try it - it's great!

Complacency doesnt do well in this country. Your forefathers found that out.

Your arguements would seem more valid if you didn't just write off the majority of western society as being "complacent" since you know, hes right that they have far less gun crime per citizen than we do.

We rank alonside somolia in violent crime per person

 Alexzandvar wrote:
Do you know how the Irish were treated when they first got here?

Irishman and immigrant here. Please stop dredging up 160+ year old attitudes that were imported from England to try and make your point

 Alexzandvar wrote:
How Latino immigrants are treated now?

Pretty well, I work with quite a few of them.

 Alexzandvar wrote:
How the Japanese Americans were during WW2? Not very well

Well one out of three isn't that bad I guess. However you are comparing war time with peace time, and you were talking about fallacies earlier

I have found the US pretty welcoming, as long as you embrace everything American. I have found plenty of attitude when it comes to maintaining pride and traditions in your heritage.

 Alexzandvar wrote:

 whembly wrote:

 Alexzandvar wrote:

America is by far one of the most paranoid countries outside of the far east. We have historically always treated foreigners like crap,

Have any proof of that? Maybe we can ask some expatriot Dakkanauts who's currently living in the states.

continue to use American Exceptionalism to continue to teach our kids fascist ideas of us being superior over others.

What. The. feth. o.O

We make all our kids in school pledge themselves to the country everyday.

Why is this a bad thing again?

So yes we are a paraniod society, and the simple fact there is so much outrage about simple background checks is more than proof enough.

What is this "simple background checks" are you talking about? We already have that. Are you talking about more stringent forms of gun controls? If so... it isn't "paranoia"...

Do you know how the Irish were treated when they first got here?

Yep... happened ages ago.

How Latino immigrants are treated now?

Care to elaborate?

How the Japanese Americans were during WW2? Not very well

Yes... happened ages ago.

So, are you saying that we're STILL that bad?

American Exceptionalism is a product of the early 1900's during a rise in nationalism amongst western society, it ties into manifest destiny and the idea that America and our freedom makes us naturally superior to all others. While europes national fascist tendencys were quashed by WW1 and 2 ours never went away, and even got worse post WW2.

American Exceptionalism got even worse during the Cold War as it was used as a weapon to promote fear of communism and the Eastern Blocks.

Well... we are still the best. So stop feeling guilty about being the best.

I'll let you in a secret... It's good to be King!

 whembly wrote:
What lack of control? Are you talking about private owners giving/selling their weapons to another private individual?

Both private and gun store sales. Compare the level of checks that gun owners in the UK go through (or Canada apparently - and I seem to recall Germany from a previous thread) to those in the USA...

*sigh*
Don't you think you're making an uninformed decision here? Come visit us... it'll be fun... we won't bite... much.

I've been to quite a few places in the USA

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't really have an issue with gun ownership - I do have an issue with almost complete lack of control over the sale and use of them though.

You do realise that there are background checks on firearm sales, right?

You do realise that gun deaths and gun crime in the USA puts it right up there with countries actively at war?

And that has what precisely to do with your incorrect statement about an alleged lack of control over gun sales, besides trying to shift the goalposts because you are wrong?

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
What lack of control? Are you talking about private owners giving/selling their weapons to another private individual?

Both private and gun store sales. Compare the level of checks that gun owners in the UK go through (or Canada apparently - and I seem to recall Germany from a previous thread) to those in the USA...

Hey... we do things differently. But that doesn't mean it doesn't work.

*sigh*
Don't you think you're making an uninformed decision here? Come visit us... it'll be fun... we won't bite... much.

I've been to quite a few places in the USA

So you were cowering in fear, eh?

 Spacemanvic wrote:
Complacency doesnt do well in this country. Your forefathers found that out.

It's OK, we had India at the time - the real one, with actual Indians in it

 d-usa wrote:
I have found the US pretty welcoming, as long as you embrace everything American. I have found plenty of attitude when it comes to maintaining pride and traditions in your heritage.

Isn't that true of any country though?

 whembly wrote:
So you were cowering in fear, eh?

Nope, but then again I was not trying to use said fear as an excuse for why I need to be armed at all times.

Plus I was wearing my red jacket and white wig scouting out the best place to launch the American Revolution 2: Back Taxes Owed

 Alexzandvar wrote:
We rank alonside somolia in violent crime per person

Some interesting things happen when you start digging into those numbers and isolating demographics. But nobody wants to do that, because it involves acknowledging some unpleasant truths that might cost votes. Much easier to scream incoherently about "gun store loopholes" and "assault weapons."

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Dreadclaw69 wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:
I don't really have an issue with gun ownership - I do have an issue with almost complete lack of control over the sale and use of them though.

You do realise that there are background checks on firearm sales, right?

You do realise that gun deaths and gun crime in the USA puts it right up there with countries actively at war?

And that has what precisely to do with your incorrect statement about an alleged lack of control over gun sales, besides trying to shift the goalposts because you are wrong?

More accurately I should have said "relative" lack of control when it comes to gun control. And surely you can understand that increased access to guns means increased gun crime? And if you are a first would country where as many people are getting shot as in some 3rd world war torn nation, you might need to look at why that is and ways of resolving it, including tightening and enforcing existing gun laws and a big drive to reduce illegal arms.

 Seaward wrote:

 SilverMK2 wrote:

 Spacemanvic wrote:
It's not fear, it's preparedness.

Use fallacies much?

I take it you have disconnected the airbags, ABS and lights on your car because you've never had a crash too...

That's the exact reverse analogy, actually.

Yeah, that made me scratch my head too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dreadclaw, Seaward and Whembly:

Ya'll get the feelin' we're dealin' with people with only half the script?

 SilverMK2 wrote:
More accurately I should have said "relative" lack of control when it comes to gun control. And surely you can understand that increased access to guns means increased gun crime? And if you are a first would country where as many people are getting shot as in some 3rd world war torn nation, you might need to look at why that is and ways of resolving it, including tightening and enforcing existing gun laws and a big drive to reduce illegal arms.

You need to start using per capita numbers rather than absolute totals. We're a pretty goddamn big country. 30,000 people getting shot in Somalia's a much, much higher per capita rate than 30,000 getting shot here.

And as I said earlier, in the post that pointed out several of your misconceptions, nothing you've proposed thus far would make a dent.

 whembly wrote:

 d-usa wrote:
I have found the US pretty welcoming, as long as you embrace everything American. I have found plenty of attitude when it comes to maintaining pride and traditions in your heritage.

Isn't that true of any country though?

True, but to me it means that the whole "the US is welcoming of immigrants" statement isn't entirely true. Many don't like immigrants, they just like future Americans. Try to maintain your heritage and people start giving you grief.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Spacemanvic wrote:

Dreadclaw, Seaward and Whembly:

Ya'll get the feelin' we're dealin' with people with only half the script?

A couple of those names probably don't want to be grouped into the same level as you

SilverMK2 wrote:It may just be the fear and paranoia some posters here... erm... clearly aren't suffering from... that I am referencing

I don't really have an issue with gun ownership - I do have an issue with almost complete lack of control over the sale and use of them though.

To be fair though, it has been pointed out that there is a control over the sale of firearms, as Spacemanvic, as abrasive as he can be in these situations, explained very clearly what someone has to do to legally purchase a firearm in this country.

But your average American doesn't go around in constant fear that they're going to get shot at.

Clearly not, or they would all be packing heat so they were magically protected from all harm

The argument that people in this thread are making though is that they would rather be prepared. Like the Boy Scouts say, Be Prepared. If I lived in an area where I felt unsafe, or where police/fire/ambulance/mystical lizard rulers of the Illuminati were farther away than I might feel comfortable with then I might carry.

d-usa wrote:I have found the US pretty welcoming, as long as you embrace everything American. I have found plenty of attitude when it comes to maintaining pride and traditions in your heritage.

This might just be me, but on a micro level, I've never experienced issues with people maintaining the pride and traditions of heritage, Cleveland has vibrant populations of 1st, 2nd, and 3rd generation immigrants from various parts of the world, and each one has carved out places in the city, and it's not unlikely to see one, two, or three different cultural festivals going on during similar times of the year. On a macro level, I will say that other parts of my country seem to hate Central America, Caribbean, and African immigrants, which might sour people's opinions of our country.