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So there have been some things that bother me since I started 40k, but on the whole I love the game as a beer and pretzels game. I don't enjoy getting competitive, and have a problem with it, so I don't do tournaments.

These rules are just ideas that might make the game more 'balanced', so PuGs don't have to worry about breaking the game (try doing mech infantry as Eldar and having a fun PuG - Serpents are broken!). Some are also just to make the game more fun.

So here are some thoughts:

General:

Look Out Sir:
- Instead of 2+/4+, it becomes 3+/5+. Precision or model-specific things would matter more, but not be terribly OP

Challenges:
- MCs can't call non-MCs cowards. If an MC challenges, and the opponent refuses, the MC can't name a non-MC to sit it out. Honestly, is Seargent Daniarus a coward for having his entire squad assault the Wraithlord, instead of trying to handle it 1-on-1? Especially if he was just promoted yesterday? Sitting out entirely while his squad fights it may actually be the better decision, but it is a significant hit to a team that prevents Sarge from doing his job. Seems odd.
- An alternate option - 'Kill him!' - the refusing player nominates who sits out, on successful leadership test of said model - ideally a leader could push everyone forward into killing the thing while choosing to be the one who send them forward.

Save Rerolls:
- A rerolled failed saving throw cannot get better than a 4+ on the reroll. This makes a 2+ rerollable a lot less scary. That screamstar and seerstar with the 2+ rerollable becomes less scary.

Same-Codex Allies:
- All Optional ally slots count against Optional main deployment slots too

Scour (X):
- Reduces Cover save by (X). For instance, Scour (3) would reduce a 3+ to a 6+, or a 5+ to no cover save at all. Scour stacks.

Haywire:
-Change results 2-5 to the following: have the effect of the Pen table, without actually causing a Pen (and thus not stripping the first HP). This would make 'Haywire' grenades make vehicles go 'Haywire', which is much more in line with messing it up instead of damaging it. Would be a lot more cool, and would do about the same damage, but it would be a LOT more dynamic.

-Alternately, a new table could be put together for 2-5 which really does make the vehicle go haywire, but that would get complicated. Could be awesome (random movement? FIre at random target? who knows).

Vector Strike:
-Vector Strikes no longer ignore cover. After all, if something swoops at you, you do have a chance to duck into some ruins.

Smash:
-Models with Smash gain AP3 instead of AP2. Smash attacks themselves retain AP2. This might be too much of a nerf to MCs, but it would make MCs more diverse (some would still have AP2 by default), and make Smash more useful/fluffy.


Racials:

Eldar:
Wave Serpents:
-Serpent Shield - 6" range instead of 60 (nerfs its shooting into the ground)

Ideally, this would turn the Wave Serpent into an infantry-support platform the fluff makes it sound like, and would bring it in line power-wise with what it should be. It should be noted that it's a strong nerf to mechdar's already-weak anti-air capabilities, but it shouldn't be too bad in that regard. Hopefully, this will also mean we'll see Wave Serpents with all sorts of weapon turrets.

I wish Eldar had more transport options. Can't put Guardians in Falcons, after all.

Runes of Fate:
-Change the name. Not sure what to, but about half the powers have nothing to do with divination.

Hornet:
-Pulse Lasers cost 10 pts a piece. Might need to go up higher still, but there should be no debate that it needs to be raised.

Wraith Knight:
-0-1 per detachment

Howling Banshees:
-Acrobatics instead allows a model that ran during the shooting phase either run or charge in the Assault phase (roughly same run distance, less movement than jump infantry, but fast and can run around terrain before charging)

Star Engines:
-Completely reworked - costs the same as the base vehicle pre-upgrades. Allows, as of turn 2, a fast skimmer to become a flyer for the game round. The fast skimmer must fire snapshots when shooting at non-flying(/skimmer/etc) targets for that round?. That would show how Eldar craft can maneuver.


Chaos Marines:
I'm not overly familiar with the Codex directly, but I play against it a lot. Basically, everyone hates the HellTurkey, but the rest of the Dex is usually not that scary, with a few exceptions. So:

Hell Turkey:
-BaleFlamer becomes a template, but otherwise remains the same. Possibly front-mounted even, although then a points decrease might be possible. Possibly an alt fire that is a s4ap4 torrent as well. It's just too meta-changing as is.

Cultists:
- Points cost -1 per model

Chaos Marines:
- Point cost -1 per model

Raptors:
- Point cost -1 per model

Hopefully these changes will drive people to play more of their basic troops (the guys there should be a lot of), while still having a lot of their nasty toys. Nurgle Marines might need a point increase (or just cancel out the above decrease).

Tau:
Lots of cool stuff, but Tau Castle is so static and boring, the 'Bomb is just rediculous, and suitspam is so... weird...
And the Riptide. Just wow.
I don't have their codex as well. So my knowledge is limited. But shooting half the army off the table top of turn 1 being possible, and your only chance, is kind of weak.

Supporting Fire:
- Only one additional unit may assist any given unit in overwatch.

Dedicated Transports:
-Dedicated transports (devilfish?) may overwatch as if it were part of the squad it was brought with, provided it's within 12". Perhaps other squad-only effects as well. The Squad may overwatch for the Transport as if it were part of their unit.

Markerlights:
-Instead of paying 2 Markerlights to remove cover, remove X markerlights to gain Scour X (see general section - basically reduces cover by one)

Riptide;
-0-1 selection, sv3+

Perhaps we'd see Tau split up and have pockets of strength in multiple places instead of one castle. Cover could then matter again, but Tau could still do stuff to it. Thoughts?

So these are things I think would improve the game. Thoughts? I'm sure I'll have more thoughts later, but I figured I'd like to hear feedback about my point of view.

[inb4 - these'll never take effect, this discussion is pointless, grow up and take the helldrake it's legal - I know this discussion will go nowhere as far as changing rules or how others play, but it'll let me explore my take on the game in relation to others.]

Pretty much the only problem here is mentioning Pick Up Games - *that* is where you'll never be able to use these rules and the discussion is useless.

In Garagehammer you can do whatever you want man, and I think your ideas are pretty solid.

Hopefully these changes will drive people to play more of their basic troops (the guys there should be a lot of), while still having a lot of their nasty toys. Nurgle Marines might need a point increase (or just cancel out the above decrease).

Personally I feel the whole game should be about lots of troops. It's Warhammer Fantasy in space, and that game is about giant blobs of dudes bashing one another to pieces.

Updated to reflect discussions with a friend.

Assault Marines could use a price drop, and just like Raptors they should not replace anything to take a special weapon.

Sisters of Battle need a point drop (espically with your chaos space marines the same point as them).

It seems like a lot of change for the sake of change.

 Peregrine wrote:
It seems like a lot of change for the sake of change.

Just as planned?

Here's a question: What about models with rerollable saves who don't have a back-up save to default to?

Heraldus - I haven't really felt my SM need help in that regard (my armies are Eldar and SM). ASM feel about right to me. They're usually a great small counter assault unit to support tacs, great mobile bullies, and good HQ escorts. Certainly not undercosted, but viable. Not enough need I think.

Necrosis - I've never actually seen SoB on the table, so I can't comment on them. Traitor Marines, though, I play against a lot. The hellturkey really hides their weaknesses elsewhere, especially among basic troops.

Peregrine - how so and which changes?

Miko - Most save rerolls have to do with fate and fortune. If there isn't a second possible way to stop the wound, then it wouldn't be stopped. This might be too heavy handed, so I might need to come up with something else.

I think the fact that it's a luck thing that protects the reroller means that the same piece of wargear might work. It's not like they shot is piercing the first protection and hitting the second one, that would be something else. A fortune-based reroll literally just changes the odds of the shot deflecting off whichever form of protection is active.

Battle Sisters are overcosted for what they do. They should be eleven points, not thirteen, with Retributors and Dominions being maybe thirteen because their Acts of Faith are so much better.

Bharring wrote:
Haywire:
-Change results 2-5 to the following: have the effect of the Pen table, without actually causing a Pen (and thus not stripping the first HP). This would make 'Haywire' grenades make vehicles go 'Haywire', which is much more in line with messing it up instead of damaging it. Would be a lot more cool, and would do about the same damage, but it would be a LOT more dynamic.
Good idea, despite how fun it is, I should not be able to take out a titan with FWs in CC.

-Alternately, a new table could be put together for 2-5 which really does make the vehicle go haywire, but that would get complicated. Could be awesome (random movement? FIre at random target? who knows).
Now that would be a lot of fun.

Supporting Fire:
- Only one additional unit may assist any given unit in overwatch.
Seems decent enough, without completely nerfing everything.

Dedicated Transports:
-Dedicated transports (devilfish?) may overwatch as if it were part of the squad it was brought with, provided it's within 12". Perhaps other squad-only effects as well. The Squad may overwatch for the Transport as if it were part of their unit.
Really all the 'fish needs is a 15-30pt. decease.

Markerlights:
-Instead of paying 2 Markerlights to remove cover, remove X markerlights to gain Scour X (see general section - basically reduces cover by one)
Markerlights used to do just that, it worked and was not completely OP.

Riptide;
-AV13/13/11 walker with jumpjets, retains it's invuln but loses it's armor save. Never should have been an MC. The things that threaten a Dreadnaught should threaten it. An explosion should be possible, like a dreadnaught, but it is well armored. And has an invuln. And much more amazing guns. This change may not be necessary with the Markerlight change in place.
Personally I thought they should just make it's base pt. cost 200, with the IC somewhere about 15pt. range, but this is good. my main problem with riptides is that they just don't fit. I love tau, and know their fluff, and the riptide just does not fit. I never use them anyway because I prefer crisis teams (which is why I like to use the farsight enclaves and get 13 crisis and crisis commander teams).

Bharring wrote:


Wraith Knight:
-Point cost increase? Retcon? Not a fan, but it sounds OP right now. Not familiar enough to be sure, though.

This thing shouldn't exist has a HS choice, it should be a Lord of War thing, this monstrosity is a freakin Titan!

Bharring wrote:

Chaos Marines:
I'm not overly familiar with the Codex directly, but I play against it a lot. Basically, everyone hates the HellTurkey, but the rest of the Dex is usually not that scary, with a few exceptions. So:

Hell Turkey:
-BaleFlamer becomes a template, but otherwise remains the same. Possibly front-mounted even, although then a points decrease might be possible. Possibly an alt fire that is a s4ap4 torrent as well. It's just too meta-changing as is.

Having his AoF reduced to 180* is more then enough, with all the poeple i've talked about the Drake, the complains that comes the most is the ability of the drake to hit and destroy a transport, and then torch the passangers who got out, because of his 360* AoF.

A 180* AoF could fix this, also i don't quit get your first sentence, seing that the Baleflamer IS a template...

Bharring wrote:

Forge/Mauler Fiend:
-Both gain the 'Beast' type in addition to being a Walker. This gives them the mobility they should have.
-Controlling player may choose to have pen results (not tests, the actual results table) rerolled from any melee damage taken..

Kinda redundant sice the Mauler is allready a Beast, see Siege crawler rule, now for the Forge, it might be interesting.

But a real change would be their options, specially the mauler, it should be able to take both Magmacutters and Lashertendrils, for the extra cost.

it could have the option to exchange the magmacutters with the lashers for +10pts, or to keep the Cutters and take the Lashers but for +20pts.

Also the Tendrils should be changed, it still reduce ennemy models A stats by 1 for each Tendrils AND the Tendrils counts has Assault and Defensifs nades.

Bharring wrote:

Cultists:
- Points cost -1 per model
.

There is much more that Cultists needs then a 1 point decrease.

Given how Cults and Cultists works in Books and Fluff, they should have Infiltrator and Outflank, and also have acces to better ranged weapons then a stubber and flamer..., Plasmas and Meltas, like the old Cultists in 3rd Ed.

Bharring wrote:


Chaos Marines:
- Point cost -1 per model.

Same has Cultists, CSM needs much more then a point decrease, what CSM needs is something to be on par or at least replace ATSKNF, this rule alone, makes TAC SM superior then CSM squads, and thats not even counting on Chapter Tactics and combat tactics...

LIke in the old days, Make them reroll failed LD checks, and maybe something like "No quarters, No pity; when a unit is fleeing from a combat where they where engaged against models with this rule, the CSM unit can make a shooting attack with their ranged weapons against the fleeing unit.

SM models still gets to flee combat, and if they are catched back they do as usual, but CSM gets to get a free shot.

Bharring wrote:


Raptors:
- Point cost -1 per model.

Yup we are hiting a pattern i think, the same as the 2 previous, they need more then a point decrease Per models, a poitn decrease of their Special weapons options might be good, also giving them back Hit & Run like they used to.

Miko -
Good point, perhaps the reroll-a-different-save might be irregularly harsh on some models (such as those with only one save). Something needs to be done, as a 2+ rerollable is rediculous. Someone had floated the idea that it'd be a 4+ at best on the reroll after a fail in another thread. I don't like it's arbitrary nature, but it might be better than what I listed. I'm not sure what to do about that, and I'll see if I can come up with something.

Co'tor Shas -
I'm not that familiar with the Devilfish. I love it's look, but if you have firewarriors on the current tabletop, they're part of a castle, so their mobility isn't as critical. Perhaps with a more viable transport and a nerf to the Tau Castle an appropriately-powered Fish of Fury tactic could come back, without being OP? It'd be nice to see Transports - especially Skimmers - be used primarily to get models into optimal shooting position.

On the Riptide, that thing just doesn't feel Tau-ish. It might not be as bad as an Ultramarine Centurion unit, but for any engagement the Riptide would be in, either you'd want smaller more tactical teams (of Crisis suits), or you'd want some Fire Wariors and Broadsides/Hammerheads. The Riptide's only place in Tau war doctrine is to sell models for GW it seems. On top of the fluff massacre, on a tactical level, instead of 'having a place' in Tau armies, it's just 'I do whatever I want and then some', which isn't that much fun.

Boucher -
I'm fairly certain the BaleFlamer is a Torrent, not a Template. If it weren't a Torrent, it wouldn't be so meta-meltingly OP. That's why the suggestion is to make it a Template - so that it must be that much closer to what it wants to kill.

The more I think about it, the more it feels like hull-mounted instead might be the way to go for it. Yes, it's less of a firing arc, but we are talking about a s6 ap3 ignores cover on an AV12 flyer that can hit just about anywhere on the board before most armies can even shoot at it. Among other tricks.

I'll probably remove that section about the Forge/Mauler fiend then. I think I need to see them more in-game before I say too much.

As for the -1 pt/model instead of special rules, I don't know that those models need more rules than they currently have. Its like saying all Marines should have FNP2+ because you read some book lately. The idea is to just shift around the codex so it's not just Codex:Hellturkey+Nurgle, to make fielding other options - such as these troops and Raptors - more viable, especially if the Hellturkey cruch is nerfed, as above.

Well thats the point, if you want people to field again CSM, they have to be on par with loyalists Marines.

The simple fact that we have to pay for Marks and VotLW, while Marines gets Chapter tactics, combat tactics and ATSKNF for less then 1point is ridiculous.

And thats something that a mere point drop can't balance out.

Also, if you want to make the Baleflamer just a Flamer rather then a torrent okay, but then just reduce the AoF to 180*.

Having his AoF reduced to 45* AND the reach of the template nerfed is hitting way too much with the nerf bat, its one or the other not both.

Bharring wrote:

Co'tor Shas -
I'm not that familiar with the Devilfish. I love it's look, but if you have firewarriors on the current tabletop, they're part of a castle, so their mobility isn't as critical. Perhaps with a more viable transport and a nerf to the Tau Castle an appropriately-powered Fish of Fury tactic could come back, without being OP? It'd be nice to see Transports - especially Skimmers - be used primarily to get models into optimal shooting position.
Castling FWs is the problem I see caused by the cost of the devilfish. Last edition is was (barely) worth it's points cost because it was a well armored skimmer. I always took devilfish because I find gun lines boring, and I loved quickly maneuvering my firewarriors. Now that vehicles are so much easier to destroy, they fall like flies, and are an 80 pt. point sink.

On the Riptide, that thing just doesn't feel Tau-ish. It might not be as bad as an Ultramarine Centurion unit, but for any engagement the Riptide would be in, either you'd want smaller more tactical teams (of Crisis suits), or you'd want some Fire Warriors and Broadsides/Hammerheads. The Riptide's only place in Tau war doctrine is to sell models for GW it seems. On top of the fluff massacre, on a tactical level, instead of 'having a place' in Tau armies, it's just 'I do whatever I want and then some', which isn't that much fun.
Completely agree on all points. The tau don't built giant battlesuits, they use lots of small ones, or heavily armed flyers (or small spacecraft).

(Updated to some newer /better ideas)

When I started, looking at the factions, Tau was one of the factions I was looking at, in part because I love the idea of a devilfish. Then I saw how it worked in-game (considering its cost), and it seemed pointless.

I like most of the things you propose.

But 'look out, sir' shouldn't get beneath 4+ for characters. They're pretty vulnerable allready.

I don't like serpents either but 6' is too low practically making them not shoot at all but be immune to pens. Would need a price drop than. What about just making it 18' or 24'. Or no-ignore cover.

Also, an idea of limiting this uber wk/rapetide spams to 1 model is good. I'd like to see more basic troops cause they're way more ballanced than this rediculous stuff.

Baleflamer: Flamer mode - s6 ap3 template; Torrent mode - s5 ap4 torrent. And a point decrease like 10-15 pts. I think that'd make you wana take just 1 cause it's alwayz useful, has a nice price but won't allow you a no-brain win if you mass them.

I don't think that overwatching with transport is a good idea. What for? And how's it logical.

And about challenges. I wish i could unsee current challenge rules. But unfortunately, here they are. What aboutjust giving +1 attack for a character that had a challenge denied representing him RAAAAAAAAAAAGGGING. Or some penalties to the one who declined and not so severe like they are now. Cause atm this system just forces you to 'hide' a character who's not supposed to fight in a challenge (like pk nob) to not be within combat range at the start of a fight. And it's stupid and non-fluffy action to negate a stupid non-fluffy(sometimes) rule. There are lots of situations where challenges are plain illogical.

 Necrosis wrote:
Sisters of Battle need a point drop (espically with your chaos space marines the same point as them).

They need Acts of Faith to be rewritten from the ground up is more like.