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Chaospling wrote:
I need a single Space Marine to be awesome... He mustn't be several heads shorter than the world's tallest man was (about 2.77 metres).

The world's tallest men don't tend to be notable for sheer strength and bulk - quite the reverse really. Part of my dispute with this is that marines aren't built like basketball players - they're built like boxers or body builders.

Or to phrase it slightly differently, David Prowse was 6'6 when he played Darth Vader - that's not imposing enough?

The models are perhaps a little shorter than they should be, but based on some sources and much fanon a space marine would be close to the size of an Ogryn, and that they most definitely are not.

Boltpistols, Boltguns, Stormbolters and Heavy Bolters are Space Marine weaponry only.

The Sisters of Battle disagree. The Ecclesiarchy has immense wealth and influence and so can afford to equip its personal army with the very best weapons and equipment money (and power) can buy.

Also, those weapons being Space Marine weapons only violates the lore in a way that only a blatant Space Marine fanboy would (and constantly do).

The Arbites also have their own pattern of boltgun.

Yeah, bolt weaponry isn't all that exclusive. Though the Marines exclusively use their own pattern of bolter, IIRC.

 ashcroft wrote:
Space Marines are 7 feet tall, IN their power armor. I internally edit any fluff I'm reading that says otherwise.

Spoiler:

The scale on Jes Goodwin's famous life size drawing even starts at 2, not 1, and tops out at 8, showing that a fully armored marine is 7 feet tall. If there is one thing I'd like to eliminate from popular perception it's this idea that marines are 8 foot tall or more, which so far as I can tell originated in the BL fluff (Horus Rising being the first book I recall reading that obsessively went on about how big the marines are - to the point where I wonder if Dan Abnett has some kind of fetish...)

The tabletop models may be out of scale, but they're not that out of scale.

How old is it though? Old fluff is always overridden by new fluff, especially when the eight to nine foot tall space marines outnumber the single statement by Goodwin like hell, easily over ten to one.

And yeah Melissia, I actually have to agree with you there and it's why I never liked the Ultramarines, they're not unique in any way. My favorite Legions have always been the Salamanders, Dark Angels, and the Imperial Fists. I've also got a growing interest in the Iron Hands due to being a transhumanist myself. But really. The Ultramarines... just what's interesting about them? The only special thing about them is how they assimilated loyalist Iron Warriors IIRC, and that's just like it. Otherwise they're all similar with the only differences being purely cultural.

 Melissia wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
I don't know why you single the Third War of Armageddon out, but I agree as far as a story should include Space Marines and other legends as a spectacular bonus.

From my perspective, there's nothing really spectacular about Space Marines. They're about as generic as they come as far as literature tropes go.

Individual chapters-- such as blood angels or salamanders-- can be interesting. Space Marines as a whole, however, not so much.

.
Well that's because you only see the clones of the Space Marines or a bunch of Power Armour suits. What I focus on and what make Space Marines exceptional are their back ground from their home worlds. Can't remember how much of a Space Marine's memory gets erased when ascending from a unique human warrior to an even more unique Space Marine but some remains and much of his personality does as well. The trials of the Space Marine Chapters are such (at least in my perception of the 40k setting) that more than martial arts are needed to be accepted and so who ever succeeds will definitely be a very interesting individual - not much of this kind of thinking are used in 40k books.

 ashcroft wrote:

Boltpistols, Boltguns, Stormbolters and Heavy Bolters are Space Marine weaponry only.

The Sisters of Battle disagree. The Ecclesiarchy has immense wealth and influence and so can afford to equip its personal army with the very best weapons and equipment money (and power) can buy.

I find having an army of people who are not portrayed as unkillable in some fluff helps you see everything in a bit more neutral light. I love tau, but they still get killed quite easily. It's the same with IG, when you basic warriors are not heavily armored killing machines, it's easier to see weaknesses. SMs are obviously not as powerful as some people think, considering a single good shot to the head will take them down. They are much harder to kill than most, but a blast from anti-tank weaponry will kill them as much as anything else. The bolter, although a good weapon in regards to to humans, is not that good being bulky, expensive, and not all that strong (although the fact that a middling power weapon like a bolter can kill a human in one hit tells you something about the power or, for example, pulse or gauss weaponry).

For hights, I imagine a tau fire caste would average 5', humans 6', eldar 6'6", unarmored SM 7'-7'6", and armoured SM 7'6"-8'. There would be, of course, exceptions, especilally with SM gene-seed.

text removed.

Reds8n

Hi everyone, im new (even tho iv been lurking for forever)

How powerful are the troops of each faction really?

- I read somewhere that Space Marines are "toned down" for the game rules, and not as epic as they are in the fluff.
- I personally imagine an Ork to be as strong as silver-back gorilla that talks like an eastend bruiser.
- Nids are just the aliens from Aliens, the bigger and uglier they are the more deadly and powerful they are. Someone said earlier about numbers being their main strength.
- IG are just like the russians
- Necrons are just like Terminators ( the Arnie type)

How bad is the imperium's current situation?

- As bad as GW wants it too be... £££

How old can Marines become? Can traitor Legionnaires really be 10K years old ?

- This varies alot. Most marines, a few hundred years ( apparently they are functionally immortal, but are always eventually killed in battle). Dante is like 1200 years old or somin,
one of his sergeants is older i think. Someone found a Salamander in a cave who had been sitting there for 10,000 years, but he couldn't move because his armour had fused,
so they granted him the emperors peace and shot him in the face... So who knows.

- Apparently yes they can be, but only because of the warp.

What about the Void Dragon?

- Isnt he inside mars ?

How large are Titans? How large are spaceships?

- Just researched this. The biggest titans are 55 meters tall, the smaller ones are only like 10 meters... Massively disappointed. I always thought they were about a kilometer tall!
I imagined looking out across a landscape and seeing one of these goliaths on the horizon. Massive, lumbering strides shaking the earth whislt it kills everything... Thats the end
of that wet dream. The ships on the other hand are ridiculously huge, like really long cities. I think the Imperial Fists one is like the size of a moon...

How effective at corrupting is Chaos actually?

- Very. Victims dont even realise it.

How large are the Hive Fleets?

- Mind bogglingly big. Grim Dark, remember...

Anyway thats my two cents.

The Imperial Guard also disagrees, Chaospling. They are the largest users of Bolt weaponry in the 41st millennium even more so than the Space Marines and the Sisters of Battle.

 Melissia wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
What I focus on and what make Space Marines exceptional are their back ground from their home worlds.

Which is not unique to Space Marines.

No, probably not... Haven't said that... Were you thinking of a specific Imperial faction?

It's a shame that some of you don't look deeper and emerge yourself deeper into this lovely universe - if you did you wouldn't find Ultra Marines boring.


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 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Imperial Guard also disagrees, Chaospling. They are the largest users of Bolt weaponry in the 41st millennium even more so than the Space Marines and the Sisters of Battle.

Hehe guys... I know... This is just one of my own alterations. It just works better this way in my head - makes the bolt weapons more unique and it's part of the differentiations between the Astra Militarum and the Astartes. I've always felt that the ammunition of Bolt weapons are much more complicated than other solid ammunitions of other weapons.

Chaospling wrote:
It's a shame that some of you don't look deeper and emerge yourself deeper into this lovely universe - if you did you wouldn't find Ultra Marines boring.

It's a shame that you don't look deeper and immerse yourself deeper in to this lovely universe-- looking far beyond the generic Space Marines to see the great lore that exists.

Have you ever participated in a Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader roleplay? Ever? 40k is bigger than Space Marines. Indeed, Space Marines are such a tiny, insignificant part of it that if they're the only part you like, you don't like 40k.

What makes Astartes unique isnt necessarily their equipment or weaponry. Its the way they use their stuff. With their genetic enhancements, superb training and mastery of warfare they stand head and shoulders above the Imperial Guard. Besides, arent all of their exclusive tanks and walkers enough to make then stand out?

 TheCustomLime wrote:
What makes Astartes unique isnt necessarily their equipment or weaponry. Its the way they use their stuff. With their genetic enhancements, superb training and mastery of warfare they stand head and shoulders above the Imperial Guard.

Doesn't make them unique. Things like this exist in just about every sci-fi universe. Halo's Spartans, Mass Effect's marines (of which Shepard is one), and so on and so forth-- there's countless examples of genetically enhanced super-soldiers throughout science fiction. Many of them done far better than GW's example.

Thus, they aren't the focus of my vision of 40k. They're not particularly well done in my mind.

(also, "mastery of warfare" is disputable, given the quality of GW's writing staff )

 Melissia wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
It's a shame that some of you don't look deeper and emerge yourself deeper into this lovely universe - if you did you wouldn't find Ultra Marines boring.

It's a shame that you don't look deeper and immerse yourself deeper in to this lovely universe-- looking far beyond the generic Space Marines to see the great lore that exists.

Have you ever participated in a Dark Heresy or Rogue Trader roleplay? Ever? 40k is bigger than Space Marines. Indeed, Space Marines are such a tiny, insignificant part of it that if they're the only part you like, you don't like 40k.

I wrote this earlier:

Chaospling wrote:
... Keeping down spectacular parts like Space Marines, huge war machines etc. to a minimum and instead focussing of the awesome atmosphere of the 40k universe.

so I fully agree that there's much more than Space Marines. The atmosphere of the 40k universe is much more than Space Marines - I don't think I can underline with my vocabulary in short terms how much more there is to the 40k universe.

I have the Dark Heresy books which I only use for background material so when I role play it's with Inquisitor rules but no, I don't role play much. I'm intrigued to find more material about the Adepta Sororitas, when I see how "fierce" this faction is defended, though I have a hard time taking this faction seriously at first sight.

I meant unique in the context of 40k. Space Marines, in the greater sci fi realm, are fairly generic.

I agree, though. Their tactical mastery seems to be "Run at the enemy and shoot them". They're sort of like the Imperial Guard in Black Library except they have the power of plot armor on their side.

 Melissia wrote:
Doesn't make them unique. Things like this exist in just about every sci-fi universe. Halo's Spartans, Mass Effect's marines (of which Shepard is one), and so on and so forth-- there's countless examples of genetically enhanced super-soldiers throughout science fiction. Many of them done far better than GW's example.

Thus, they aren't the focus of my vision of 40k. They're not particularly well done in my mind.

(also, "mastery of warfare" is disputable, given the quality of GW's writing staff )

The same could be said of the Imperial Guard. Halo's Marines, Starship Trooper's, well, troopers, etc.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
What makes Astartes unique isnt necessarily their equipment or weaponry. Its the way they use their stuff. With their genetic enhancements, superb training and mastery of warfare they stand head and shoulders above the Imperial Guard. Besides, arent all of their exclusive tanks and walkers enough to make then stand out?

Yes of course... It wasn't because I actually needed more to make them stand out... Now when they're so huge it didn't make sense for me that their huge guns could be held by normal men, and the complex ammunition was the argument for that it couldn't be produced at scales necessary for the Astra Militarum. It also helped that the Boltgun often are referred to as being holy and so being technology exclusive guarded by Techmarines supported this view... In my opinion.

Da ooniverse, huh?

Well da ways I see it, dems us Orks, da biggest and da baddest, and den all dese 'ere weedy gits Gork n Mork put in fer us to fight!

Well all tech is holy in the IM .

A boot stamping on a human face, forever.

Well, having tech being excessively complex has never stopped the Imperium before. The thing is that, even though the bolt round and weapon may be hard to make, the Imperium has a lot of resources and manpower at their disposal. If they stopped being weird about their tech they could equip elite regiments with the things.

But, you know, they got more important things to make. Like Titans. Totally not a waste of time and resources.

Oh sure, Space Marines are not unique in sci-fi, but neither are Orks or Imperial Guard.

I believe Space Marines to be the ultimate version of the 'Space Marine' trope, however, which is why I consider them so very central.

A 40K without Space Marines would lose a lot of its charm. Not all of it, but a lot of it.


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Chaospling wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
What makes Astartes unique isnt necessarily their equipment or weaponry. Its the way they use their stuff. With their genetic enhancements, superb training and mastery of warfare they stand head and shoulders above the Imperial Guard. Besides, arent all of their exclusive tanks and walkers enough to make then stand out?

Yes of course... It wasn't because I actually needed more to make them stand out... Now when they're so huge it didn't make sense for me that their huge guns could be held by normal men, and the complex ammunition was the argument for that it couldn't be produced at scales necessary for the Astra Militarum. It also helped that the Boltgun often are referred to as being holy and so being technology exclusive guarded by Techmarines supported this view... In my opinion.

A plausible possibility is that Astartes weaponry simply is bigger and nastier than equivalent IG or SoB weaponry.

Pg.320 Blood Angels Omnibus wrote:He saw Tycho’s combi-weapon lying on the floor and took a half-step toward it. The idea of taking it up himself died in this mind; the gun was so massive he would never have been able to lift it.

Pg.20 The First Heretic wrote:The angel’s brethren emerged from the dark interior of their landing craft and descended to the plaza. All wore armour of the same blue. All of them carried great weapons too heavy for a mortal man to lift unaided.

I like those quotes. The models where two Guardsmen are firing a Heavy Bolter and tanks equipped with Heavy Bolters should in my opinion have been equipped with Heavy Stubbers instead. I get the image of the machine guns firing much more rapidly than huge Heavy Bolters firing mini rockets.

I agree. The Heavy Stubber is a weapon unique to the IG, neither in use by the SoB nor the SM, so they should use it more often.

 TheCustomLime wrote:
What makes Astartes unique isnt necessarily their equipment or weaponry. Its the way they use their stuff. With their genetic enhancements, superb training and mastery of warfare they stand head and shoulders above the Imperial Guard. Besides, arent all of their exclusive tanks and walkers enough to make then stand out?

Well, doomguy did the space marine better. Even in comic format: http://www.doomworld.com/10years/doomcomic/ .
BFG9000 baby!

 Melissia wrote:

text removed.

Reds8n

What did I miss? WHAT DID I MISS?

Chaospling wrote:
I'm intrigued to find more material about the Adepta Sororitas, when I see how "fierce" this faction is defended, though I have a hard time taking this faction seriously at first sight.

For the Ecclesiarchy in general, see Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd edition. Dolan Chirosius is some goddamn badass. Sebastian Thor story after the fall of Vandire is actually pretty cool, in retrospect. And it sheds a new light on that whole “Decree passive” stuff.
For the Sisters of Battle, see the Liber Sororitas from WD293UK. Since it must be pretty hard to find, maybe just send me an MP if you are interested.

Chaospling wrote:
Now when they're so huge it didn't make sense for me that their huge guns could be held by normal men

They are not held by average normal men. They are held by awesome super-soldiers normal men. Or tanks. Beside, bolters are hardly the biggest, heaviest weapons the marines carry with them anyway.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I agree. The Heavy Stubber is a weapon unique to the IG, neither in use by the SoB nor the SM, so they should use it more often.

No. The Heavy Stubber is also used by Imperial Knights. So the IG should use heavy bolters! We want to keep Knights unique, do we not?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

text removed.

Reds8n

What did I miss? WHAT DID I MISS?

Hehe damn it... Can't remember anything out of the line...

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
I'm intrigued to find more material about the Adepta Sororitas, when I see how "fierce" this faction is defended, though I have a hard time taking this faction seriously at first sight.

For the Ecclesiarchy in general, see Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd edition. Dolan Chirosius is some goddamn badass. Sebastian Thor story after the fall of Vandire is actually pretty cool, in retrospect. And it sheds a new light on that whole “Decree passive” stuff.
For the Sisters of Battle, see the Liber Sororitas from WD293UK. Since it must be pretty hard to find, maybe just send me an MP if you are interested.

Thank you very much, I may contact you some time. I just missed sale of an old used Codex: Sisters of Battle 2nd edition but maybe I have the White Dwarf magazine.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
Now when they're so huge it didn't make sense for me that their huge guns could be held by normal men

They are not held by average normal men. They are held by awesome super-soldiers normal men. Or tanks. Beside, bolters are hardly the biggest, heaviest weapons the marines carry with them anyway.

No of course not, but now it's the Bolter weaponry which is discussed.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I agree. The Heavy Stubber is a weapon unique to the IG, neither in use by the SoB nor the SM, so they should use it more often.

No. The Heavy Stubber is also used by Imperial Knights. So the IG should use heavy bolters! We want to keep Knights unique, do we not?

Come now hehe You know what he meant: weaponry of non-super-human factions. I think it's a nice detail that Imperial Knights are wielding Heavy Stubbers the way they are. Especially the co-axial Heavy Stubber makes the Imperial Knights super heavy tanks with legs.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

What did I miss? WHAT DID I MISS?

Nothing much, just Melissia saying Chaospling is boring.

Hardly seems worth the effort of deleting it to be honest.

My personal hypothessis as to the disparity in weight between Guard/SoB issue bolters and Space Marine issue bolters isnt necessarily due to a larger round as it due to their construction. Space Marines are very, very strong and they tend to need something to club their enemies with. So, Astartes bolters are probably built with a lot more material to keep them nice and sturdy so that they don't crumble in the hands of these giant men. So, while a Space Marine Doug's bolter is comparable to the one Sister Josephine Schmoe lugs around in terms of punch Schmoe's can't hold a candle to how much abuse Doug's can.

Or "True" Boltguns are the ones regular humans carry around and what the Astartes have is actually something in between a "regular" Bolter and a Heavy Bolter.

Chaospling wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

Chaospling wrote:
What I focus on and what make Space Marines exceptional are their back ground from their home worlds.

Which is not unique to Space Marines.

No, probably not... Haven't said that... Were you thinking of a specific Imperial faction?

It's a shame that some of you don't look deeper and emerge yourself deeper into this lovely universe - if you did you wouldn't find Ultra Marines boring.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
The Imperial Guard also disagrees, Chaospling. They are the largest users of Bolt weaponry in the 41st millennium even more so than the Space Marines and the Sisters of Battle.

Hehe guys... I know... This is just one of my own alterations. It just works better this way in my head - makes the bolt weapons more unique and it's part of the differentiations between the Astra Militarum and the Astartes. I've always felt that the ammunition of Bolt weapons are much more complicated than other solid ammunitions of other weapons.

The Ultramarines are boring. The only Black Library material on them besides the Horus Heresy, the McNeil books, paint the Ultramarines as incompetent idiots with absolutely zero foresight instead of the logistical geniuses they're supposed to be.

Hey guys, I found something interesting. Codices are supposed to be the kings of canon, right?

Codex: Space Marines 6th edition, page 79, 3rd paragraph wrote:A Chapter Master has the authority to act as he wishes and is answerable only to others of his rank.

Emphasis mine.

Seems this misconception with Inquisitors being able to command Chapters is well and truly broken, eh?

It does make sense- with the Emperor incapable of giving commands and the Primarchs all lost in one way or another, there is no one left with sufficient authority.

As for the chapter that was assassinated over time by the Inquisition for not complying with their demands? Well, that seems to me like plain ol' backstabbing! After all, if the Inquisition had actual authority to order them, they would not have needed to bother persecuting them in secret for refusing, now would they?