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Ok, with the new realease I'm thinking that there's going to be lots of people with shoebox Titans and Firby Heirophants while they lament about how expensive the real model is [but promise to get one soon]. So, you've agreed to a game of Escalation, but do you allow proxy super heavies?

Edit - as rightly pointed out below, I'm talking about proxies, not 'counts as', so changed the title.

Depends on the other player entirely.

@ OP, technically what you're talking about is proxying. A counts as would be a model that isn't the actual product, but represents it well enough to be WYSIWYG and very similar in dimensions.

I would allow a proper counts as or nice scratchbuild, but proxying would be iffy. Maybe a one off scenario to give it a run, but not more.

*Edit after title change* I'm generally not a fan of consistent proxying, but fine with it to test something out if its a general size and shape. Anything more and I'd expect my opponent to make an effort at getting an appropriate model, whether the actual thing or a proper counts as.

Yes, if it looks good enough or funny.

I do not even need to be told that they are getting one soon.

If it is close enough to the actual model, yes. Or in the case of the TC'tan, any C'tan shard model will do as long as it is of sufficient size.

If it is or is close to the same size as the superheavy, a baneblade can be a large book and I'd still go with it.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
If it is close enough to the actual model, yes. Or in the case of the TC'tan, any C'tan shard model will do as long as it is of sufficient size.

Yep, I use some old Inquisitor minis as C'tan along my actual C'tan, and they work quite nicely without me having to use the same two minis mutiple times. It makes knowing who has what abilities far easier, also.

NO,

or more of if you dont have one and your oppenent DEMANDS to field theirs then more no to them.

its hard to proxy superheavies... their sheer size means you cant use a landraider as a baneblade etc, so i am against someone turning up to a game against me and saying this is a reaver titan...... when i am not even remotely prepared for it, same as i wouldnt deploy a titan or equivilant against someone that wasnt expecting it..

Yes, under at least one of two conditions:

1- someone wants to test it out before pouring a lot of time and money in a potentially trash (rules-wise) model

2- it's a very good conversion (clever, well done, funny, etc.) and not just an excuse to use a really powerful model. You could write "bolter marine" and "terminator" on scraps of paper or pill bottles, but I'm in it for the hobby and don't enjoy playing against wholly unpainted armies, and sure as hell wouldn't want to play against an upturned waste paper basket with "warhound" written on it

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Yes, under at least one of two conditions:

1- someone wants to test it out before pouring a lot of time and money in a potentially trash (rules-wise) model

2- it's a very good conversion (clever, well done, funny, etc.) and not just an excuse to use a really powerful model. You could write "bolter marine" and "terminator" on scraps of paper or pill bottles, but I'm in it for the hobby and don't enjoy playing against wholly unpainted armies, and sure as hell wouldn't want to play against an upturned waste paper basket with "warhound" written on it

Pretty much this. I knew one guy who made a cardboard and plastic stompa, and I was totally fine with it, since it was roughly the same size, had the right details, was painted and had the correct loadout. If someone tries to proxy a dread or a plain cardboard box as a stompa though? Forget it.

I would allow a regular opponent to proxy a super-heavy if they wanted to try it out and see how it performed before buying it. I would not allow a proxy in a random pick-up game unless we had pre-agreed that they wished to test that model out. I don't buy the "super-heavies are too expensive, I can't afford one" argument because most SHV are cheaper for their points than a conventional army. A squad of Dire Avengers is £20.50 for 65 points, a ratio of 3.17 points per pound. A Lynx is £76.00 for 420 points, a ratio of 5.52 points per pound. Even factoring in shipping a Lynx is considerably cheaper for the points than Dire Avengers, but nobody would ever complain the latter is too expensive. You can't even argue that the total price of the Lynx is too high, because there are plenty of armies with at least 20 Dire Avengers, by which point they are more expensive than the Lynx. To use a different example, a Rhino costs £22.50 and 35 points - about 1.6 points per pound. A Warhound titan with two weapon arms costs £331 and is worth 720 points, for a ratio of about 2.2 points per pound. It's significantly better value to get a titan rather than some Rhinos for your Space Marine army, and this time you get free shipping as well. I simply can't see a reason that anyone who could afford a full army couldn't save up and get a super-heavy vehicle as part of that.

thisisnotaseriousaccount wrote:
I would allow a regular opponent to proxy a super-heavy if they wanted to try it out and see how it performed before buying it. I would not allow a proxy in a random pick-up game unless we had pre-agreed that they wished to test that model out. I don't buy the "super-heavies are too expensive, I can't afford one" argument because most SHV are cheaper for their points than a conventional army. A squad of Dire Avengers is £20.50 for 65 points, a ratio of 3.17 points per pound. A Lynx is £76.00 for 420 points, a ratio of 5.52 points per pound. Even factoring in shipping a Lynx is considerably cheaper for the points than Dire Avengers, but nobody would ever complain the latter is too expensive. You can't even argue that the total price of the Lynx is too high, because there are plenty of armies with at least 20 Dire Avengers, by which point they are more expensive than the Lynx. To use a different example, a Rhino costs £22.50 and 35 points - about 1.6 points per pound. A Warhound titan with two weapon arms costs £331 and is worth 720 points, for a ratio of about 2.2 points per pound. It's significantly better value to get a titan rather than some Rhinos for your Space Marine army, and this time you get free shipping as well. I simply can't see a reason that anyone who could afford a full army couldn't save up and get a super-heavy vehicle as part of that.

Well said my man, well said. Rhinos are crazy expensive point per pound. It's actually a pretty fun exercise to go through various 40K and fantasy armies to see what the actual most expensive models are. I remember when Chaos Warhounds (the dogs, not the Titans) were available only in metal you got 10 in a box for like 35£. Considering the models were only worth 30 or 40 points on the battlefield that wasn't a very good deal They were the most expensive GW model at that time atleast.

All the people playing eldar or eldartau here , wanted to play their WK as reventants . They were told a hard no . So I guess it is a no for everyone else . But then again it may just be the revenant , because one of the eldar veterans here owns a chiness Revenant and he can't use that one either.

Makumba wrote:
All the people playing eldar or eldartau here , wanted to play their WK as reventants . They were told a hard no . So I guess it is a no for everyone else . But then again it may just be the revenant , because one of the eldar veterans here owns a chiness Revenant and he can't use that one either.

What's a chinese revenant?

And yeah. WK definitely are not revenants. They don't even have the right dimensions.

Lot of people buy resin models from china , much cheaper then buying it from UK and people can buy just the parts they need like weapons and stuff.

[Mod Edit - Dakka Dakka in no way condones the use of such things/places/etc. - Alpharius]

I'm fine with proxying anything to playtest. I proxy when I'm thinking of getting something and want to know if it works how I think it will. So to clarify I'd be fine with proxies in anything but a tournament. In a tournament it should be the model or a conversion/scratch built of appropriate size. If I don't have it I don't play it in tournies and I hold my opponents to the same standard.

On-topic: no to proxies. If you have a decent counts-as model because you want to use something cool, I'll probably allow it. If you want to bring a powerful unit without putting the time and effort into making the real model then too bad.

Off-topic: remember that forum rule about discussing illegal recasts? Please follow it.

Well that's an even split in the poll if I've ever seen one, haha. I voted yes. I don't really see myself playing Escalation with the state of my army, but if I wanted to in the future I wouldn't mind a proxy.

Well lets say, someone heavily converted a properly sized Abrams tank for a baneblade I Would say sure, and a one off friendly thing sure, but if you plan on bringing a titan every game you had best be buying yourself that titan

How about a Barbie doll for an Eldar Revenant Titan? Maybe the one wings?

No thanks. Super heavies are supposed to be something special. Have the right model or go play monopoly.

Amongst the regular game group for testing stuff out,sure lets build one out of Legos!

But at even the lowest competitive levels ..you better bring an award winning kitbash or the FW model if ya want to play it.

I'm fine with any sort of well-executed purpose-built alternative model or scratchbuild. Yes to things like carefully detailed and constructed papercraft. No to things like titans slapped together out of shoeboxes and paper towel rolls in half an hour and sprayed red.

Makumba wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Does it look like the FW model? How close is it?

Well they look identical . I don't have a credit card so am not realy interested in that stuff , but from what I have seen people can buy everything FW makes in China for cheaper. One dude bought a whole w30k army and braged he paid less then 1/4 of what they want in UK for the same models.

Besides the fact it's supporting theft by buying from such people, I don't think I'd trust them with my credit card number. Karma can be such a bitch.

Well if you're going to plunk down that kind of money you have to know how it's going to play!


Unless you really just want the model for the collection and not so much to use then yeah whatever, buy it before you try it. Otherwise you should probably do some proxies.

Y'all just remember that before GW was fat and bloated and too powerful to care they used to give us free plans for building our own superheavies in White Dwarf magazine, and they were made out of paper.

Just remember that before you get stiff about proxy or counts as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
No thanks. Super heavies are supposed to be something special. Have the right model or go play monopoly.

What if the OP doesn't have all the pieces?

darkcloak wrote:
Well if you're going to plunk down that kind of money you have to know how it's going to play!


Unless you really just want the model for the collection and not so much to use then yeah whatever, buy it before you try it. Otherwise you should probably do some proxies.

Y'all just remember that before GW was fat and bloated and too powerful to care they used to give us free plans for building our own superheavies in White Dwarf magazine, and they were made out of paper.

Just remember that before you get stiff about proxy or counts as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kronk wrote:
No thanks. Super heavies are supposed to be something special. Have the right model or go play monopoly.

What if the OP doesn't have all the pieces?

Yep, I built some of the Ork vehicles, but out of plastic. We had a guy in our Epic group that was a line worker out in the willie whacks when he was on shift and in his off time in the middle of nowhere built vehicles out of cardboard. He had armies of the things and they looked great on the table.

Proxy? No. Superheavies are too big and too much could hinge on the actual model for something like that.

If you want to play such a special unit I expect a scratchbuild or an original model. What is someone proxies 500 points in a battle, that is the same right? Only now is it just one model. I already think that a super heavy should stay in apocalypse, so if you really want to play a super heavy, make an investment first.

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Yes, under at least one of two conditions:

1- someone wants to test it out before pouring a lot of time and money in a potentially trash (rules-wise) model

2- it's a very good conversion (clever, well done, funny, etc.) and not just an excuse to use a really powerful model. You could write "bolter marine" and "terminator" on scraps of paper or pill bottles, but I'm in it for the hobby and don't enjoy playing against wholly unpainted armies, and sure as hell wouldn't want to play against an upturned waste paper basket with "warhound" written on it

Sums it up