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 kronk wrote:

Spoiler:

 amanita wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I have to wonder, for all those being adamant about the limit being the limit and no going over, how many of you exceed the speed limit while driving?

How often do you compete with or play games with other drivers?

Every time I drive, now that i have these stickers on my mirrors!

As a long-time fan of Camaro's, I approve of that picture.

On a side note, I usually do allow these items...but usually counter with a slightly higher response.

"Sure you can go 7 points over. Can I go 10 and upgrade that Heavy Bolter to a Missile Launcher?"

0.

Since you have both agreed a limit, it is rude to wish to break it, when you are perfectly allowed to be under said limit. (Indeed a lot of armies will be a few points below it).

It is particularly bad if I (for example) object to you going over, and then you (for example) complain. Since you are breaking the social contract, you are in the wrong, and should remove things from your list until it is a legal one.

Yes list building is a skill that will take some time to get the most out of each points limit, but then you can just go 5 or 10 points below the limit. Certainly I've done this many times, when the points with the units just won't add up right. But I've never gone over and then asked if it is okay. That way lies madness. ( and that extra meltabomb may also be completely useless in the army, so 'my' extra points are in effect worthless).

Part of the game is getting in at or under the points. A 5 point meltabomb can take out AV14.

I don't play competitively much, and even if it makes their army stronger than mine, it gives me the chance to practice taking out a superior foe.

Zero points over. Every army has upgrades or cheap troops that can be easily removed to get you under the points limit. If it's no big deal, then you should be able to meet the social contract you've entered into with your opponent without a problem.

In non-tourney games I'm fine with being over by up to five points, mostly cause I'm not a prick.

I will play and only allow up the the limit.

that 1-5 points over might not be because of a melta bomb, but could be the difference between a 50 or 55 point wargear which can make a massive difference. When i build a list if i go over, sometimes i have to completely re-write my list as what I was trying to achieve cannot be done within the points. Even if this was 1 points over.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
In non-tourney games I'm fine with being over by up to five points, mostly cause I'm not a prick.

You are going to have to qualify that statement a bit.
It sounds like you are saying that anybody that do mind their opponents going five points over......are pricks.

I, of course, expect people to hit 0 points under or over.

But I usually give a 1% curve if they explain a reason to me, such as "I really wanted to give my techmarine a combimelta" or "WYSYWIG means he has meltabombs."

That's 20 points at 2000, (i.e. the game is anywhere from 1980-2020). I, personally, hold myself to the 0 point standard, but I won't begrudge anyone an extra power axe or powerfist.

Normally in pick up games I'd allow my opponent to be 5, or more - depending on who it is - points over the limit, especially if it's a situation where my opponent has had to write his list up on the spot. I'd rather get on with the game that wait for my opponent to fiddle around with a calculator for a few minutes.

That said, it does sometimes annoy me if someone abuses this to get extra stuff in that will make a big difference. After all, a couple of extra points can allow someone to fit in an extra Wave Serpent or something.

Steelmage99 wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
In non-tourney games I'm fine with being over by up to five points, mostly cause I'm not a prick.

You are going to have to qualify that statement a bit.
It sounds like you are saying that anybody that do mind their opponents going five points over......are pricks.

When it comes to friendly games, I am saying that.

Look in tourneys and games where something is on the line like $, by all means be anal about points and rules, I sure as hell am (or was).

Otherwise its a friendly game, and in my experience anyone who is anal about <5 points in what is supposed to be a friendly game is 100% of the time TFG.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


Otherwise its a friendly game, and in my experience anyone who is anal about <5 points in what is supposed to be a friendly game is 100% of the time TFG.

Have you ever considered that the person who went over the limit and refuses to adjust is really TFG?

I mean, that's just basic etiquette to meet your opponent at the agreed upon limits and parameters.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


Otherwise its a friendly game, and in my experience anyone who is anal about <5 points in what is supposed to be a friendly game is 100% of the time TFG.

Have you ever considered that the person who went over the limit and refuses to adjust is really TFG?

I mean, that's just basic etiquette to meet your opponent at the agreed upon limits and parameters.

Most of the time I've found that people are willing to drop down to the limit, but are asking if it's ok to use the extra points because they want something cool or badass or fluffy on the board. Which, of course, I don't mind.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Blacksails wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:


Otherwise its a friendly game, and in my experience anyone who is anal about <5 points in what is supposed to be a friendly game is 100% of the time TFG.

Have you ever considered that the person who went over the limit and refuses to adjust is really TFG?

I mean, that's just basic etiquette to meet your opponent at the agreed upon limits and parameters.

Most of the time I've found that people are willing to drop down to the limit, but are asking if it's ok to use the extra points because they want something cool or badass or fluffy on the board. Which, of course, I don't mind.

Which is fine, what bothered me about the post I quoted is the absolute certainty that everyone who holds the opponent to a limit is automatically TFG.

Again, with my friends if their models are limited and strictly WYSIWYG and the last 5pts is hard to jiggle around, I'd probably let it slide. Then again, I'd probably just ask if there was a different points level their army fit better at and avoid the situation altogether.

Certainly it's less than 25%.

I played one game, Empire versus Empire at 1000 points, and working out his numbers later I realised that he was probably playing around 1250... that Steam Tank made a big difference.

A limit is a limit for a reason.

Anything over the limit is just variations on cheating.

Part of list building is realising your list is 1001pts and then working back through your list to get it back in points. Its annoying but it has to be done.

less than 5 points is okay with me. Sure, a limit is a limit, but 5 points more or less really won't make a difference in a casual game.
You need to act according to the spirit of the law, not to it's letter. Without going too much into philosophical debate, if you obey the letter of the law rather than it's spirit, the law has lost it's point.

The amount of people here that don't even allow a single point difference even in a casual game is truly shocking. No really. You guys scare me.

From now on, I will make my games not 1500 points, but 1490 and allow people to go 10 points over.

I voted 0, even in friendly games. I will reduce my forces to meet the cap, I think it's a bit of a disservice to myself if I were to go over. I should be able to challenge myself within the parameters. That being said, while I expect my opponents to do the same, if someone screwed up their math while building a list, I don't get mad. It happens.

At or lower, never over.

For me, list building is an integral part of the game, where I map out my army's strategy unit by unit, until I've built a "Game Plan" rather than an "Collection of Models". I'd rather play 5pts under than 1pt over, because the agreed upon limit is the goal of the "List Building" game.

As to my opponent, while I do not expect the same goals in list building from them as I hold for myself, I have noticed that people who routinely go over the point limit are the same people that take one look at your army, and tailor their list to crush yours. Yes, they want you to ignore the overage so they can keep the advantage in a competitive game.

Now, most people aren't that Machiavellian, but then again, most people don't pump hundreds of dollars into winning a friendly game. They pump hundreds of dollars into being more competitive at their chosen sport, be it friendly or not. A few points over most likely is a model with a WYSIWYG option they want to include, but to do so pushes them over the limit. I say, don't include it if you can't make it fit. Make different choices so you can fit it.

SJ

In tournaments and such, the limit is the limit.

Friendly games against a new player or a "weaker" player, I explain it so they dot take it for granted and roll with it.

In friendly games against an opponent of my caliber or better, Sure, no problem, I'll just add in or change stuff around till I match your new limit.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
less than 5 points is okay with me. Sure, a limit is a limit, but 5 points more or less really won't make a difference in a casual game.

You're right, 5 points probably won't make a difference, so there is no reason to keep those extra points in your list. In fact, if you have to play 5-10 points below the point limit to follow the rules then it also won't make a difference.

The amount of people here that don't even allow a single point difference even in a casual game is truly shocking. No really. You guys scare me.

You know what's also shocking? That people act like they're entitled to break the rules and then accuse everyone else of being "too strict" if they disagree.

I refuse to play anyone who isn't at least 5 points under the point limit. Going exactly to the limit is just powergaming.

 Tyberos the Red Wake wrote:
I refuse to play anyone who isn't at least 5 points under the point limit. Going exactly to the limit is just powergaming.

haha brilliant

Unless I'm throwing together a list on the spot (it has happened once or twice when I improv a match) I like to be dead on the money.

If I do happen to be over, I let my opponent know so, that way they can go over to the same level as me then.

I'll give Orks or DA plenty of points. I once gave a DA player 45 pts as a BA player. I just didn't care.

Eldar/Tau/Demons, on the other hand, get nothing. In fact, they should get negative points to give other lists a fair shot, but I digress.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Unless I'm throwing together a list on the spot (it has happened once or twice when I improv a match) I like to be dead on the money.

If I do happen to be over, I let my opponent know so, that way they can go over to the same level as me then.

If you're throwing together a list, I'm ok with a couple of points, but the thing about "allowing at the same level" is that while those 5 points allowed you to keep your list the way you had built it (otherwise you would have to remove that whole heavy choice, and replace it with something else, because that hero's 25 point psycannon can't be removed!) they make a huge difference for you, but for your opponent to be able to go "uuh, I guess I'll mastercraft this then?" they're worth nothing.

I allow 0 points over for planned games because you had the bloody time, you just wanted to gain an advantage, and that's a dick move, but of course if you're throwing together a quick list, sure, a few points over won't kill me. Your list probably won't be the absolute top notch best balanced of what you have anyway if you're just throwing it together quick.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Unless I'm throwing together a list on the spot (it has happened once or twice when I improv a match) I like to be dead on the money.

If I do happen to be over, I let my opponent know so, that way they can go over to the same level as me then.

Of course, you wouldn't mind if your opponent went a bit more over than you, right? I mean, you have already established that it is OK to go over the previously agreed upon amount, right?

Or......you could just NOT go over in the first place.


...

If someone is 3 points over I tend to add an extra piece of war gear to balance it out a bit but most of the time I'm not fussed. The only time I'm not happy is when it happens game in game out.

I can see why people wouldn't care too much about few points, mainly because it's hard to find something that costs say... 4 points or whatever it is to just drop. It's usually more like, "Okay drop 15 points here, and be under"

I voted under 5 because I think even a 10 point discrepancy is too much, but it's not that big a deal if you're within a few points of each other.

Like always man, friendly games should be friendly. If someone is a few points over you can usually then add a weapon somewhere too.

What you're 11 points over but wanna keep that power sword? Guess I'll just take a GoM!