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I've heard quite a few people complain about the 40k Storyline is barely moving forward, and hasn't gotten any REAL updates for the past few years. What are peoples thoughts on this?

"It's not a story, it's a setting".

It can be expanded on, but the proverbial clock will stay at 11:59pm, right when the races are on the verge of victory/doom, etc.

You mean what my thoughts on GW not advancing the storyline? Well, it sucks. But I guess they wrote themselves into a corner with the ending of the 13th Black Crusade.

It's a setting, not a plot.

You take the information they give you, and you write your own story based on that. GW isn't going to do it for you.

Indeed. otherwise id have to buy models for warhammer 50k

and i don't have the monies for that

 Lord Spartacus wrote:
You mean what my thoughts on GW not advancing the storyline? Well, it sucks. But I guess they wrote themselves into a corner with the ending of the 13th Black Crusade.

How so?

 ntdars wrote:
How so?

Chaos nearly has Cadia in it's pocket
Tyranids continue to invade, and rumors suggest they head for Terra itself
Necrons continue to awake at an alarming rate all over the galaxy
The Tau keep expanding their territory
And the Golden Throne shows signs of failing

The Imperium is doomed.

Well, none of that has happened yet. The end of the 13th Black Crusade world-wide campaign has been completely wiped away. As far as the tabletop game is concerned, the 13BC has just started.

 Lord Spartacus wrote:

 ntdars wrote:
How so?

Chaos nearly has Cadia in it's pocket
Tyranids continue to invade, and rumors suggest they head for Terra itself
Necrons continue to awake at an alarming rate all over the galaxy
The Tau keep expanding their territory
And the Golden Throne shows signs of failing

The Imperium is doomed.

Along with this, the daemon primarchs are written to be finally beginning to look to the real realm, Ahriman is regaining favor with Magnus and has already approached the black library quite close, and Ghazgull Thraka is amassing more and more orks under a single waaagh.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:

 ntdars wrote:
How so?

Chaos nearly has Cadia in it's pocket
Tyranids continue to invade, and rumors suggest they head for Terra itself
Necrons continue to awake at an alarming rate all over the galaxy
The Tau keep expanding their territory
And the Golden Throne shows signs of failing

The Imperium is doomed.

Along with this, the daemon primarchs are written to be finally beginning to look to the real realm, Ahriman is regaining favor with Magnus and has already approached the black library quite close, and Ghazgull Thraka is amassing more and more orks under a single waaagh.

So I guess the real question, how long has this been the case and long was it before it became like this?

Well, it depends on which parts you mean.

Chaos no longer has any kind of hold on Cadia.
Tyranids have always continued to invade for 3 or 4 editions now.
Necrons have continued awakening at an alarming rate across the galaxy since the faction was introduced.
The Tau have expanded their territory... slightly.
The Golden Throne has been showing more signs of failing than it has in the past. This may or may not be a bad thing, if the theories of Perpetuals and the Star Child are to be believed.

In other words, there is very likely not going to be any dramatic progressions. They promised that the campaign would make a difference casting the Imperium into a golden age or cthe Imperium crumbling even further. Now though, this is no more. We stand before the fall of Cadia, yet the fluff implies that the 13th crusade is the crusade. The first one that will be focused upon breaking it and beginning the spread of the warp. The primarchs stir preparing to join in a bloodbath that will engulf the Imperium from one end whilst the other sectors fall to other forces.

And so there will likely never be any large progressions BL might write a few stories but that is about it. They are more pleased to flesh out the HH and the time between that and now. For better or worse, personally quite neutral, it will only progress if the owners feel that it is stagnating or some sort and they argue it must progress. Yet in a lie of falsehoods, propoganda, contradictory evidence, and more, how would this effect the setting?

Because people keep insisting it's a setting. Which I think is crap, because if that was the case then why would Games Workshop bother licensing Black Library books?

Yeah, there is a setting, but there is also a plot. People only insist it's a setting because Games Workshop doesn't know how to properly map out their plot and they also need to keep selling toys to people.

Star Wars is a setting, but it also has a plot. What is so bad about moving things forward? It doesn't make your army invalid.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Because people keep insisting it's a setting. Which I think is crap, because if that was the case then why would Games Workshop bother licensing Black Library books?

Because you buy them.


No matter how bad they are.

But you're confusing things. It's not that there are no stories in 40K. It's that there's no continuing, overarching plot to the setting. It's a backdrop for a million different stories, but there's no story of 40K. Nothing changes because it exists solely for you to create your own stories.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Arcsquad12 wrote:Star Wars is a setting, but it also has a plot. What is so bad about moving things forward? I

Have you read any of the Star Wars novels? They're even worse than the Black Library novels. It took them literally 6 months to gum up the Star Wars canon. Literally. The license didn't even survive its first two major entries, Heir to the Empire and the Dark Empire comics from Dark Horse. They literally cannot both exist in the same setting.

The there are the prequels.


Yeah. Star Wars is a terrible example.

Says the man who has clearly never read the X-Wing series. Also, Hand of Thrawn cleans both of those examples you listed up.

Anyways, what I should have said was that I think it isn't fair to slap the "ITS A SETTING NOT A STORY HURR DURR" down every time somebody complains that Games Workshop won't move the story forward. They have every right to be annoyed, since the status quo hasn't changed for the past twenty years. Stagnation sets in, and you can only expand so far sideways. I mean, what major events have we really had since the 13th Black Crusade that aren't at least ten years old now? A couple Imperial Armor campaigns, and the "go nowhere and accomplish nothing" Medusa V event.

It's a setting much as modern earth is a setting, or medieval times is a setting. It's a specific setting, with a large number of facets creating it. That is how they keep writing and expanding the setting, without progressing it.

problem with moving things forward is it can mess up peoples own table top set up. that and just cause general havok, for an example of what happens when a game setting rushes forward with a constantly moving timeline one need only look at what's happened with forgotten realms or battletech

Maybe they aren't advancing the 'plot' because in the 41st milennium there is only war. seriously though, the 40k universe is so vast and filled with potential - to make any huge changes (fall of the golden throne, etc.) would detract from the game and the setting itself. link your games together in a campaign, create a custom army with relevance to changes you decide to make to the 40k universe. advance the plot in any way you like.

I'm currently painting about 4000 points of Red Corsairs. While I do this I'm brainstorming ideas to expand on their lore, and how to work that into an upcoming campaign with some friends.

 troa wrote:
It's a setting much as modern earth is a setting, or medieval times is a setting. It's a specific setting, with a large number of facets creating it. That is how they keep writing and expanding the setting, without progressing it.

This, in a nutshell.

If a company writes a World War II game, they can flesh out everything that happens during World War II. They might even tell you about some of what happened before WWII in order to set the scene... but what came after WWII is outside the scope of the game.

40K is a fictional setting, but is otherwise exactly the same situation. Just substitute 'The 41st Millenium' for 'World War II'.

But players investing into a factual table top game expect exactly that, facts, history and recreation of event.

W40k shouldn't really be stuck into the same mould, as it is not locked by any past events. It is a fantasy game, and fantasy by its nature demands innovation and progression.

Ideally I would love to see some progression.
Hell, they could even try to advance the fluff a little to encompass these stupid new ally tables, as it stands they are just crowbar'd in to encourage greater profits and also 'balance' the game.

If the storyline did progress into the 50th millennium, then the story could be padded out beyond the simplistic "there is only war!" motto, and perhaps include some greater depth.
Perhaps having the tyranids force the tau and the imperials together in order to survive. Or a push by slaanesh to envelope the last eldar souls that forces the craftworlds to work with the Dark Eldar in order to survive.

These would at least justify some rules, instead of having the tabletop game and the fluff diverge so greatly.

I'd love for them to do a sort of 'what if' series of books. Separate from the setting of the game but allowing them to continue the plot without affecting the tabletop game.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
But players investing into a factual table top game expect exactly that, facts, history and recreation of event.

And they're getting them. 10000 years worth of them.

W40k shouldn't really be stuck into the same mould, as it is not locked by any past events. It is a fantasy game, and fantasy by its nature demands innovation and progression.

There is nothing about being a fantasy setting that inherently requires the setting to progress. And ultimately, there is only so far they can progress the story without changing the setting.

Instead, they're giving players the new by fleshing out the backstory. There are 10000 years of history covered by the game setting. That's more than enough to keep a constant stream of new stuff coming along.

 ntdars wrote:
I've heard quite a few people complain about the 40k Storyline is barely moving forward, and hasn't gotten any REAL updates for the past few years.

Ask the same people how they would like Chaos to win and all Imperial armies including all loyal Space Marine variants discontinued from the 40k range. Guess their enthusiasm would decrease

The timeline was moving forward steadily right up til the 13th Black Crusade, at a rate of about 1 game year per real life year. This didn't destroy the setting and there is no reason why a similar slow crawl forward would suddenly destroy the setting. People keep acting as if moving the timeline forward were some dangerous never before tried thing, when in reality, it was the standard case until the last few editions. People also make the error of equating timeline advancement with stupendous overturning change such as the Emperor dying or Primarchs returning, when nothing of the sort needs to happen. The slow steady incremental advancement of the timeline in past editions did not involve this, and there is no reason rolling over into M42 could not do this incremental movement. The situation was one of "dynamic stasis" in that things did change, though the overall galactic situation remained mostly status quo.

Not only did the setting not explode when the timeline moved forward in the past, but the advancement allowed for the advancement of individual character stories, even though the larger universe stayed largely status quo. For example, only when there was movement was Tycho able to evolve as a character, from a generic BA captain, to being disfigured as a result of being felled by a Weirdboy in a battle report, to then the masked Tycho, and finally to his death. Similarly, Yarrick developed through his defeat on Golgotha (an Epic Squat/Imperial vs. Ork battle report), heightening the rivalry between him and Ghazghkull. A lot of the background which gets taken for granted today did not spring up unchanging and set in stone, but developed in gradual steps as a result of timeline movement. Some people might question what is the point of incremental advancement if the larger picture is not radically changed, and the answer is it allows for individual stories to change and progress.

There have already been mentions in a couple of BL books, such as Cadian Blood, which take place in M42, and the Imperium hasn't fallen apart. In truth, even if GW had not wanted to radically upset the setting, it could have easily incorporated the results of the Eye of Terror campaign while still effectively maintaining the status quo. There were hints of this with mentions in the subsequent Space Marine and Tau Codex of the Tau border being stripped of Imperial forces to reinforce the Cadian Gate, resulting in the burst of Tau expansion. This reflected exactly what happened in the campaign itself which saw Imperial players ignoring the Tau front. If GW had wanted to they could have had Abaddon break out of the Gate successfully, then be bogged down before reaching Terra due to Imperial reinforcements from elsewhere, yet this still weakening the Imperium as a whole due to other factions taking advantage of the weaknesses exposed elsewhere. Even if Cadia had been written as fallen, it wouldn't have meant the end of the Cadian line. Creed and the Cadians could have been written as gearing up for a campaign to retake their homeworld. In fact, there are again mentions of this in the 13th Black Crusade BL publication, in which Creed calls upon Cadian regiments to return to contested Cadia and fight to free it from Abaddon. The quest to reclaim their home is also alluded to in the BL novel Cadian Blood which actually takes place in approximately 003.M42 (from the textual clues within the book itself). Just as Yarrick's character gained some depth and character development from what was in reality a solid pasting in a GW battle report, Creed and the Cadians could gain more depth through surviving defeat and adversity.

Also not every faction has ten thousand years of history to play around with, which is why simply limiting things to the Imperium's past is not good as it leaves these players out permanently. The Tau were not a technological race until recently. When they were first encountered by the Imperium 6000 years ago they were stone age hunters, which is hardly suitable for a 40K game. The Tyranids did not really arrive on the scene til Behemoth. The Necrons did not really become more active until recently. Sure one can try to handwave it as an isolated tomb world or a splinter fleet that conveniently disappears again, but then you also relegate these to effectively never making any impact whatsoever on the background if they are forced to somehow be forgotten about or be made to go inactive again (so that the Imperium can be surprised when the Necrons or Tyranids really show up in late M41). Players usually like to play their armies as what their armies actually are, not handwaved "stand-in" armies or have deus ex machina negate any impact they might make on background.

The current static background creates problems with expansion of the armies. For example, the Tau have only been active and technological for a short period of time. Some of their weapons in their Codex are recent additions, such as the rail rifle. This creates problems for GW if more additions are added in future editions, as ever more stuff gets crammed into a narrow unchanging window of time. One thing GW has done is try to retcon stuff further back, such as the Tau's Custodian class carrier ship, but that only goes so far because it still runs into the barrier of when the Tau actually became a technological spacefaring race, and also creates problems with continuity. This is because the Tau are explicitly described as having inferior space forces in the Damocles Crusade, and the Custodian was part of a Tau naval expansion and modernization as a result of shortcomings uncovered during that Crusade. Retcon things too far back and you overturn the reason for the Custodian's existence. Don't retcon enough and you run into the barrier of the Damocles Crusade as the earliest time when one can even think about a Custodian class carrier existing, even if just on the drawing board. It also strains ever more suspension of disbelief if the Tau are shown as taking over more worlds or sectors given the small size of their empire and their limited resources.

This gets even worse with things like the supplements. For example, the Farsight Enclaves depicts Farsight and his Enclaves, which only came into existence only about 760.M41, and Farsight is actually out of action from 832.M41 to 997.M41. Farsight and his special bodyguard formation are actually not usable at all because it only comes into existence in 998.M41, meaning there is a year at most for it to travel anywhere, which given Tau FTL travel limitations means Farsight can go literally nowhere to fight. So in other words, any Farsight Enclave player is completely unable to participate in anything before 760.M41 at the absolute earliest. All those people that keep saying "There are 10,000 years to play with" clearly are only thinking from an Imperial-centric POV. Many factions simply do not have that timeframe to work with, so keeping to just the past effectively rules them out of any participation or background expansion.

Constrained by the existing timeline, the background of the Tau and certain other races is inherently limited to the last few centuries, something that might not be apparent for Imperial only players. Retcon has its limits and ultimately strains suspension of disbelief or creates more conflict with existing background. The only solution lies in one early M3 leader's catchphrase, "Forward". Having things in eternal stasis for edition after edition will cost GW players over the long run as with any product line in whatever industry that doesn't adapt and change.

I really like it that way.

The setting allows you to create full stories from scratch. Keep in mind that the players are supposed to make their own stories, with the setting just providing a background. By advancing the plot you will no doubt cut out lots of stories.

Will the Tyranids destroy Terra? Will Chaos win? Will the Necrons do whatever they want to do? By giving a clear answer, you are killing lots of potential good stories.

So I hope they don´t move the plot forward.
Never.

It would be nice if they did another living story campaign like they did a few years ago, even if they limit results to those games played in stores and official tournaments (and it would be nice if they brought those back too ).

They don't have to move on the main timeline, but it would be nice to have an effect on the story in an area of space on the eve of the next century.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:

 ntdars wrote:
How so?

Chaos nearly has Cadia in it's pocket
Tyranids continue to invade, and rumors suggest they head for Terra itself
Necrons continue to awake at an alarming rate all over the galaxy
The Tau keep expanding their territory
And the Golden Throne shows signs of failing

The Imperium is doomed.

Along with this, the daemon primarchs are written to be finally beginning to look to the real realm, Ahriman is regaining favor with Magnus and has already approached the black library quite close, and Ghazgull Thraka is amassing more and more orks under a single waaagh.

Ahriman is not interested in Magnus' favor, and is certainly in no way regaining it.

 da001 wrote:
I really like it that way.

The setting allows you to create full stories from scratch. Keep in mind that the players are supposed to make their own stories, with the setting just providing a background. By advancing the plot you will no doubt cut out lots of stories.

Will the Tyranids destroy Terra? Will Chaos win? Will the Necrons do whatever they want to do? By giving a clear answer, you are killing lots of potential good stories.

So I hope they don´t move the plot forward.
Never.

This would have merit if anyone actually did these potential stories where the tyranids destroyed Terra, Chaos won, necrons did whatever. But... no one will. So I see no harm in killing these stories.

That said, the plot can move forward without any of those three happening (and should, in fact). The most obvious way to do it would be to have the loyalist and daemon primarchs return (upon which they basically cancel each other out). Once that happens, the plot's advanced to a slightly different age without ruining any potential stories while giving the players more options for even MORE potential stories. But that won't happen until they're done with the Horus Heresy for obvious business (and really, narrative) reasons.

GW apparently realized this since they included quips about the daemon primarchs being spotted in the 13th Black Crusade (and seem to be including the daemon primarchs in more fluff pieces in general) and also narrated the Lion is ready to wake. (for what it's worth, Black Library also revealed that Vulkan himself is one of the artifacts the Salamanders are searching for, even if they probably don't realize that). But... yea, not gonna happen until the Heresy series (both BL and Forge World) is finished, I imagine.

 insaniak wrote:

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
But players investing into a factual table top game expect exactly that, facts, history and recreation of event.

And they're getting them. 10000 years worth of them.

W40k shouldn't really be stuck into the same mould, as it is not locked by any past events. It is a fantasy game, and fantasy by its nature demands innovation and progression.

There is nothing about being a fantasy setting that inherently requires the setting to progress. And ultimately, there is only so far they can progress the story without changing the setting.

Instead, they're giving players the new by fleshing out the backstory. There are 10000 years of history covered by the game setting. That's more than enough to keep a constant stream of new stuff coming along.

Oh, you mean the 'history' that is changed every codex release, or with every new addition to the black library? This so called history you are differing to is not set in stone, and certainly shouldn't be used as an excuse for the lack of plot advancement. Is this the same 'history' as the time the blood angels and necrons became friends?

And fleshed out? come on now, really? They are not so much fleshing out the story as simply plastering over the old one, whilst maintaining the status quo. We receive contradictory fluff and black library books that are no better than fan fiction, and all the while new models and rules appear with little to no reasoning.

Space marines have never used centurions before, and then suddenly they pop into existence and we are told they were actually in the armouries all along. What a waste of potential plot material.
Why could we not see a change in the story? Some sign that the adaptus mechanicus is beginning to innovate again would be a welcome change. Yet, the chance is wasted.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:

Why could we not see a change in the story? Some sign that the adaptus mechanicus is beginning to innovate again would be a welcome change. Yet, the chance is wasted.

IIRC, in the past, there were mentions that the Adeptus Mechanicus "coincidentally" was "finding" more weapon techs and new weapons showing up, implying that they were doing so because they realized the gak hit the fan. Not sure if current editions do that though.

Forge world stated for some of their models that "mysteriously" more archeotech is showing up, and explicitly states that this implies that some forge worlds are now churning it out again. So the implication that the Adeptus Mechanicus realizes they need to get a move on to survive in this hellish situation that the Imperium is entering into is there, at least.

....dunno why they don't take it a step further and just have them produce or "miraculously discover" (but in reality, innovated) new things instead of silly retcons like Centurions.