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I'm fine with the notion of the "setting". Plot advancement might "canonically" screw over some of the factions whilst ascribing glory to others. The way it is right now allows me to imagine that my Children of Torment warband contributes to the 13th Black Crusade by conducting its own little campaign.

I understand full well how important is the "official canon", but it's extremely vague. It's perfectly fine to adjust and pick its elements to create personal canon that satisfies you.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
It is a fantasy game, and fantasy by its nature demands innovation and progression....
....at least justify some rules, instead of having the tabletop game and the fluff diverge so greatly.

huh?

Also iirc the 13th black crusade takes place in the year 999 of the 40th millenium...

M41. 999 M41.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Says the man who has clearly never read the X-Wing series. Also, Hand of Thrawn cleans both of those examples you listed up.

You're absolutely right. It didn't take long to realize the Star Wars extended universe was a crap fest of the crappiest crap to ever be crapped, and I stopped wasting my time.

And somehow, no, I imagine it doesn't, and if it "does" it's only in the kindof implausible hand-waving nonsense way a blind fanboy would accept.


The reality of it is that the setting will not change, because it's a setting. Even if it continued to crawl forward, nothing changed before, why would it change now?

There's not going to be any earth-shattering alterations to the story because that's not good for the game. People have their armies, and their setting, and their fluff.

Black Templars players cried up a storm at the minor changes to the fluff in C:SM6E. There's no need to rock the boat anymore than needs be. The 40K setting works for what it needs to do. Sell plastic toy soldiers.

There's absolutely nothing "HUrr DURr" about pointing this out. What is "HuRR DuRR" is continually complaining that a story that hasn't fundamentally changed in 20 years isn't changing. I think you're playing the wrong game. Might I suggest Legend of the Five Rings? You don't seem to understand this one.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Oh, you mean the 'history' that is changed every codex release, or with every new addition to the black library? This so called history you are differing to is not set in stone, and certainly shouldn't be used as an excuse for the lack of plot advancement. Is this the same 'history' as the time the blood angels and necrons became friends?

I don't recall saying that it was set in stone. I also don't recall presenting it as an excuse for anything.

They don't need an 'excuse' for not moving the story forwards. The 'current' time is the setting for the game. There is no need to move it forwards. Choosing to flesh out the 'history' of the game universe is simply another way of giving people new stories without having to change the setting. That's not an excuse... it's simply the way it is.

Space marines have never used centurions before, and then suddenly they pop into existence and we are told they were actually in the armouries all along.

You could say the same about Terminators... or rhinos... They never existed either. Until they did.

A new codex isn't supposed to be a continuation of the story. A revised Space Marine codex is, by its very nature, a revision of the previous Space Marine codex.

They have 10,000 years of stories to tell before they need to move the plot forward - I like the fact that they are exploring their history in the Horus Heresy series and indeed in the Warhammer in the Time of Legends books.

(although a couple of BL novels did indeed have refernces to people and events in the next Milleniium)

TiamatRoar wrote:

 da001 wrote:
I really like it that way.

The setting allows you to create full stories from scratch. Keep in mind that the players are supposed to make their own stories, with the setting just providing a background. By advancing the plot you will no doubt cut out lots of stories.

Will the Tyranids destroy Terra? Will Chaos win? Will the Necrons do whatever they want to do? By giving a clear answer, you are killing lots of potential good stories.

So I hope they don´t move the plot forward.
Never.

This would have merit if anyone actually did these potential stories where the tyranids destroyed Terra, Chaos won, necrons did whatever. But... no one will. So I see no harm in killing these stories.

No no no no. I mean stories you create about characters or armies. A chaos warband, a SM chapter or a Tyranid invasion.

If the setting advance, most of the custom-made stuff will no longer be important, because we create it with the information we have now. My custom made chaos warband is doing all kinds of stuff and gearing up to the 13th crusade. Being told that the crusade was destroyed because everyone got eaten by tyranids would make my fan-made fluff irrelevant. The same goes for my custom-made marine Chapter. And so on.

Remember that GW actively encourages creating your own fluff, your own heroes, your own campaigns... all this stuff is obviously not making it into the setting if it ever moves forward. All will be lost.

That said, the plot can move forward without any of those three happening (and should, in fact). The most obvious way to do it would be to have the loyalist and daemon primarchs return (upon which they basically cancel each other out). Once that happens, the plot's advanced to a slightly different age without ruining any potential stories while giving the players more options for even MORE potential stories. But that won't happen until they're done with the Horus Heresy for obvious business (and really, narrative) reasons.

In my opinion, that would absolutely ruin the game.

This game is about skirmishes and unknown heroes. Reducing it to some fights between the Primarchs sounds fun one single time. Once it has happened, the game is over. What would be the point of keeping playing? Think about this: if the Primarchs return, who would then care about chapter masters? Marines? Sisters? Guards? They would all be pointless.

Also, look at the HH series. At first it was amazing to see the Primarchs. Now we have books with six or more Primarchs having senseless fights and killing endless marines, yet failing to do something significative or interesting.

GW apparently realized this since they included quips about the daemon primarchs being spotted in the 13th Black Crusade (and seem to be including the daemon primarchs in more fluff pieces in general) and also narrated the Lion is ready to wake. (for what it's worth, Black Library also revealed that Vulkan himself is one of the artifacts the Salamanders are searching for, even if they probably don't realize that). But... yea, not gonna happen until the Heresy series (both BL and Forge World) is finished, I imagine.

Daemon Primarchs appeared before, and the Lion is "just sleeping and hidden by the Watchers" since Codex: Angels of Death. Which is second edition.

Regarding Vulcan, there was always this prophecy about "finding the artifacts" = "Vulcan returns". This gives a reason for Salamander players to imagine a quest for an artifact. If they are told that the quest is over, all these potential stories lost their meaning, no matter the result. Salamanders players will play with the Primarch, change faction or be reduced to "pew-pew" players who do not care about the fluff of their own army.

Another example: rumor has it Russ got lost with the 13th company, which suddenly appeared again during the 13th crusade. Is Russ with them? What happened to the Primarch? Did Magnus imprison him? Actually, I don´t want to know. I have been asking that question for 20 years. I would be happy if I can stay 20 years more playing my Wolves without knowing, wondering and dreaming about what could happen to Russ.

Russ probably just turned into a giant wolf.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Says the man who has clearly never read the X-Wing series. Also, Hand of Thrawn cleans both of those examples you listed up.

You're absolutely right. It didn't take long to realize the Star Wars extended universe was a crap fest of the crappiest crap to ever be crapped, and I stopped wasting my time.

And somehow, no, I imagine it doesn't, and if it "does" it's only in the kindof implausible hand-waving nonsense way a blind fanboy would accept.


The reality of it is that the setting will not change, because it's a setting. Even if it continued to crawl forward, nothing changed before, why would it change now?

There's not going to be any earth-shattering alterations to the story because that's not good for the game. People have their armies, and their setting, and their fluff.

Black Templars players cried up a storm at the minor changes to the fluff in C:SM6E. There's no need to rock the boat anymore than needs be. The 40K setting works for what it needs to do. Sell plastic toy soldiers.

There's absolutely nothing "HUrr DURr" about pointing this out. What is "HuRR DuRR" is continually complaining that a story that hasn't fundamentally changed in 20 years isn't changing. I think you're playing the wrong game. Might I suggest Legend of the Five Rings? You don't seem to understand this one.

Accuses me of being a blind fanboy for enjoying a series he does not, while at the same time telling me that we're sheep for eating up Black Library books (that are somehow better?), tells me to piss off and play a different game if I have a contrary opinion to his own, ad hominem attacks. Yep, you are really making a fine case and not sounding like a jerk at all.

I agree with the arguments that it's a setting, so never needs to progress. I also agree that with each codex, retconning stuff in is unavailable as a part of a setting instead of a story.

That being said I'd love to see the story advance nonetheless. Warhammer 50k! Not that it's ever going to happen, though; since they'd only be able to sell Necron models, amirite?

Yikes!

Rule #1 everyone - there's a link to the rules of this site in my signature, in case anyone wants to refresh themselves.

 Ouze wrote:
I agree with the arguments that it's a setting, so never needs to progress. I also agree that with each codex, retconning stuff in is unavailable as a part of a setting instead of a story.

That being said I'd love to see the story advance nonetheless. Warhammer 50k! Not that it's ever going to happen, though; since they'd only be able to sell Necron models, amirite?

Necrons....

... and the CRASSUS ARMOURED ASSAULT TRANSPORT!

Kinda OT but...

Solution for Advancing past black crusade = Tzeencth realizes if chaos wins, he can;t troll the imperium any more, Khorne realizes their will be LESS bloodshed when the imperium is gone, They withdraw their support of Abbadon, with the Thousand Suns gone back to the warp, and the World Eaters attacking the black legion, as well as the mark of chaos ascendant gone, Abbadon falls, and Caidia is retaken. Elyphis the Inheritor takes over Black Legion, begins plotting against the a new faction of Chaos marines led by Ariman.

Back to topic at hand...

I would like to see mild change, maybe kill off some characters, new armies ect. but I don't think the status Quo should be messed up THAT bad. I also think that one could just pick a time in the timeline their custom army exists in, battling future and past armies via Warp travel.

guys, I think it's because

1. there is only war=tech advancement: 0
2. they wanna keep the grim dark, with skulls, banners and gothic stuff
3. everyone would constantly have an outdated army

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
"It's not a story, it's a setting".

Agree, if people desire different settings for their table top conflicts or BL fiction we have the Horus heresy and personally speaking i would rather see different eras investigated such as the unification wars or age of apostasy long before I would like to see any attempt to advance the 40k era.

Knockagh wrote:

 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
"It's not a story, it's a setting".

Agree, if people desire different settings for their table top conflicts or BL fiction we have the Horus heresy and personally speaking i would rather see different eras investigated such as the unification wars or age of apostasy long before I would like to see any attempt to advance the 40k era.

Have an exalt. The timeline won't be advanced in any meaningful way. GW can makes its filthy lucre through the HH series, Age of Apostasy, Missing Primarchs, etc., without changing a damn thing to the current timeline. Veteran Sergeant, do you have a newsletter I can subscribe to? We tend to think alike.

TiamatRoar wrote:

This would have merit if anyone actually did these potential stories where the tyranids destroyed Terra, Chaos won, necrons did whatever. But... no one will. So I see no harm in killing these stories.

That said, the plot can move forward without any of those three happening (and should, in fact). The most obvious way to do it would be to have the loyalist and daemon primarchs return (upon which they basically cancel each other out). Once that happens, the plot's advanced to a slightly different age without ruining any potential stories while giving the players more options for even MORE potential stories. But that won't happen until they're done with the Horus Heresy for obvious business (and really, narrative) reasons.

GW apparently realized this since they included quips about the daemon primarchs being spotted in the 13th Black Crusade (and seem to be including the daemon primarchs in more fluff pieces in general) and also narrated the Lion is ready to wake. (for what it's worth, Black Library also revealed that Vulkan himself is one of the artifacts the Salamanders are searching for, even if they probably don't realize that). But... yea, not gonna happen until the Heresy series (both BL and Forge World) is finished, I imagine.

Primarchs returning is not setting changing? It would utterly ruin it! FW made an entire expansion for Primarch fanboys, please go play that and let 40K Imperium stay as crumbling dystopic hellhole, where Primarchs are mere barely remembered legends.

Its a setting and a saga. Fresh stories and fluff keep it interesting for the fans. And if you don't actually read a book, I.e. the star wars hater up above, you sound foolish talking about something you are ignorant of.

The 40k setting is filled with dooms of many shapes and sizes, the apocalypse(s) are all just around the corner, the clock is at 11.59...

Just like White Wolf's World of Darkness used to be, they had Vampire the Masquerade, Werewolf the Apocalypse, Wraith, Mage etc all in the same setting, all hurtling to their cataclysmic finale for years and years, never getting there...

And then they pushed the button, they moved the timeline forward, into these 'ends of the world' and in doing so, killed off their games. They destroyed their own company by this, oh they relaunched a 'new' world of darkness, a poorly written hash of bits of the old games, tropes and random ideas, and the player base took one look and walked away with their established books and enough resource to continue playing them for ever. White Wolf basically committed corporate suicide in killing off the geese that laid their golden eggs. I don't see GW being that stupid.


What they could launch, with some success, I think, would be 'alternate outcomes', like the Marvel miniverses where authors and designers can play about. The Dornian Heresy certainly showed something awesome to us, a universe with no Fall of the Eldar could be an interesting thing, with the terran imperium still struggling to establish it's self in the face of an Eldar superpower, or a universe where the Krork are still ruled by their 'brainboyz' for example.

Lets look at another hallowed game system. AD&D advanced duengeons and dragons. Specificly forgotten realms. They timeline has greatly advanced in that world. It could certainly be considered a setting also. New stuff and fluff keeps the player intetested. GW should take a lesson from AD&D.

Not moving the plot forward?
I was not aware that there was a plot for 40k? Could someone please tell me what the actual plot is?

The reason they are not moving the timeline forward is extremely simple. It is 40K, not 41k.
Apart from having to change the name, advancing the timeline would mean actually changing stuff, like killing off characters or factions, which would make many people really, really angry.

 landcruiserlarry wrote:
Lets look at another hallowed game system. AD&D advanced duengeons and dragons. Specificly forgotten realms. They timeline has greatly advanced in that world. It could certainly be considered a setting also. New stuff and fluff keeps the player intetested. GW should take a lesson from AD&D.

The big difference here is that D&D is not the setting for a miniature wargame. Advancing the timeline in 40k means that people would end up with worthless miniatures, as GW kills characters or even entire factions.
Just look what happened to those poor Squat players.

Its not plot so much as a TIME LINE


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As too making people angry for advancing the time line....... lmfao at them. Look at all the back story added with Horus Heresy..... getting angry over a game or hobby is silly & immature

 landcruiserlarry wrote:
Its not plot so much as a TIME LINE


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As too making people angry for advancing the time line....... lmfao at them. Look at all the back story added with Horus Heresy..... getting angry over a game or hobby is silly & immature

Getting angry over a lot of money spent on stuff that is now worthless for playing the game is not.

First. The point that AD&D is not a table top with minis is Completely Moot. The whole point is its a Setting WITH an advancing timeline. Bringing up Squats. .. plesse point out the fluff where they were wiped out by necrons or marines..? They were simply eliminated. Mostlikely they weren't making GW any money. The next point. As too dead characters suddenly maki g all models useless. Ex. Captain tycho. He is dead put you can play hom still. Where is the rule your army has to play like ots the most recent "date" in the 41M. My chapter of spacemarines is dead according to the books. Put I still play them. You csn plsy in the same stagnant boring universe where nothing ever changes. I'd like to see some new fluff every few Years.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
How is it suddenly worthless just because they move the time line up? I.E. Tycho as stated above I dead and you can field him. Your arguement has no grounds other thsn you fear change.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well atleast AD&D players don't cry like babies when the game changes over 35 years. :-)

 landcruiserlarry wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well atleast AD&D players don't cry like babies when the game changes over 35 years. :-)

Are you for serious right now?

Yes all I see so far: whiners. " oh don't change 40k or we'll get angry and write some strongly worded blogs." Its a game, a hobby. Nothing more. 40k isnt a lifestyle. If it is more than you need to get outside more or get a girl friend. If your so uptight about change then I am sure you are still playing first edition right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DEUS VULT wrote:

 landcruiserlarry wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well atleast AD&D players don't cry like babies when the game changes over 35 years. :-)

Are you for serious right now





Funny how you pick that. Cannot answer so you pick the least important sentence. Typical liberal tactic. Ignore my points and jump to getti ng your feelings hurt. Thanks for proving my point.

 landcruiserlarry wrote:
Yes all I see so far: whiners. " oh don't change 40k or we'll get angry and write some strongly worded blogs." Its a game, a hobby. Nothing more. 40k isnt a lifestyle. If it is more than you need to get outside more or get a girl friend. If your so uptight about change then I am sure you are still playing first edition right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 DEUS VULT wrote:

 landcruiserlarry wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Well atleast AD&D players don't cry like babies when the game changes over 35 years. :-)

Are you for serious right now





Funny how you pick that. Cannot answer so you pick the least important sentence. Typical liberal tactic. Ignore my points and jump to getti ng your feelings hurt. Thanks for proving my point.

Me? Whine? To be perfectly honest, the only person I hear who is whining is you. There are a lot of people whining about the setting not moving forward. Really, get over it, it is just a game, a hobby.


Also, what GW did with Tycho is a good way of solving it, but it can only be done to a limited extent.
Otherwise we would end up with horribly long codices full of dead special characters.
Also, 40k is more than just a 'game'. It is a hobby in which people have invested a lot of money. So people have a right to be angry about it.
And as to the Squats, they were killed off in the fluff by having their worlds eaten by Tyranids.

And please stop acting like an immature jerk.

Id like to see the major plots advanced even if its just in book form. keep the game at the same point.

The mistake they made was starting at the end of the 41st millennium. If they had started at year 1M41 they would have had a thousand real years to play around with the setting. They would have been able to have stories that were actually new and interesting. Now all they can do is say "It's the final hour, oh by the way this happened a long time ago." Any new stories they put out are ancient history as soon as they come out and any new technology they introduce has actually been around for a few years if not centuries. There are no stories happening "now" unless they are in 999M41. Any new models they put out (which is their entire business model) must be retconned into the setting, so they're not actually new units.

Why do you think the Horus Heresy is so popular? Yes, it's a setting "in the past" and we already know what happens, but the way they present it makes everything new actually feel new. Rather than starting at the siege of Terra and then adding in stories piecemeal, they release them chronologically, so that every new model and book actually feels new, even though, as far as we're concerned, they've existed for 10,000 years already.