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I have been struggling for larger than 1500 point lists of late, as I only brought a small army case with me when I moved over here.

Anyway, after being challenged to an 1850 game a few weeks back and struggling to make the points, I decided to play a pimped out librarian and then one of my TH/SS termies as Lysander for the first time, and have been truly stunned at the amount of gak he can beat the crap out of.

With one reroll to hit, and a WS6, he almost always hits with 3 out of his 4 whacks, and what he hits, pretty much explodes on impact.

When he does take wounds in a challenge, he usually does not have his 2+, but makes full use of his 3+ and obviously saves 2/3 of those, and when he doesn't, he has a massive 4 wounds and most importantly of all, no ID.

Today he was challenged by a massive eldar, Iyanden Warlord thing, took 4 wounds, saved them all on 3, and then promptly blasted its nuts into orbit with his retort.

So, as I usually took a regular captain (ID is a pain) or a pimped out Librarian, and lately Tigurius because a pimped out libby is only 50 points less anyway, (and I always forget about the bloody powers) I am starting to think he is the go to HQ for Vanilla SM.

Being a noob however, I am curious of several things.

1. What HQs CAN dust him safely in a challenge? (Lillith? Trazyn?)
2. Am I playing him correctly? (2+ 3++, Eternal warrior, one reroll to hit, 4 wounds, 3 attacks, S10, AP1 - seems a little broken, has there been an FAQ?)
3. Why is Calgar so much more expensive when Darnath would rip his balls off?

And most imortantly, I just like to natter, so what does everyone think of him? Good points? Bad points? Hard counter characters?

Lysander has always been amazing... the downside with him is that he's in terminator armor, and moves pretty damn slow because of it.

Calgar is more expensive because he has a nice shooting attack, an extrat 2 attacks, and unless I'm mis-remembering, has the option of using a power sword to strike at initiative.

Lysander is good, but like all terminators, he'll still die to massed wounds, because we can't make all the 2+ armor saves. He's among the best in single combat though, but he's a space marine, so he should be.

1. Lysander is lucky in the sense that only a few HQ's in 40K can go toe-to-toe with him in both offense and defense. The few that can do so appear to be Abbadon the Despoiler, The Swarmlord, Ghazghkull when he pops his 2++ save and possibly Skarbrand if he gets the charge. Otherwise he is arguably the most survivable character in the Space Marine codex short of an Iron Hands Chapter Master with the Shield Eternal on a bike.

2. As long as you've got him stuck in at the spearhead assault unit of your army or you're using his defensive capabilities to soak up attacks for more ranged units in your army you should be fine.

3. Calgar costs a lot more mainly because of his God of War ability to completely bypass the basic rules for morale and literally have complete control over whether or not you pass or fail. This can be incredibly powerful in its own right as this can be the thing that allows a unit of yours to escape and leave an enemy close combat unit open to a counter-assault and focussed fire from your army. It also annoyingly allows you to tarpit or hold back enemy units that would have otherwise forced your units to flee from an objective or combat.

Lysander is good in a similar more "bargain-bin" way of Calgar from his Icon of Obstinacy rule which allows everyone within 12" to reroll failed Morale and Pinning checks which is great as it makes him a solid foundation for an Imperial Fist gunline or holding point and gives him additional utility as an HQ choice by being more than just a beatstick (though he's still quite good at it).

Any Necron Lord/Overlord with Mind Shackle Scarabs could take him on. He would still have the advantage(better WS, able to ID), but if you can't roll less then 10 on the test, the fight's going to stagnate real quick.
Still fairly easy to deal with though. If it's your turn, make MSS happen before challenges and make sure Lysander isn't base to base at the beginning. There's a good chance you'll get one wound through the first round and end it there.

A Thunderwolf Lord will rip him apart as long as he brings his own P-fist, SS, saga of the bear, and wolf tooth necklace.

One less wound, always hits on 3s, and two more attacks per round.

But then again, thats what Thunderwolf Lords do and very little else.

Usual suspects. Swarmlord, Abaddon, Bear Lords, Powered up DPs and Greater Daemons, probably everyone's favorite Chapter Master.

Lysander is one of the better duelist characters in the Galaxy. He only loses in single combat to maybe Abaddon, the Swarmlord, or the tooled-out Overlord (MSS is what does it).

The downsides to Lysander are that he's a lot of points with not a lot of attacks or mobility. If your opponent swamps him in dudes or stays at range and shoots him, he's not going to be nearly as impactful as when he gets into combat with the enemy warlord and applies a Thunder Hammer to the face. S10 AP2 is a lot worse when you're only killing 30 points of Boyz a turn, and against shooting he's only about as survivable as a TH/SS squad, which dies to sustained fire.

If your opponent charged you with his Wraithlord/Wraightknight, I would call that a misplay on your opponent's part. A wraithlord with a good ranged loadout should be nowhere near Lysander unless you've put him in a Land Raider and charged (which you should probably be doing anyways with Lysander), and a Wraithknight is a Jump MC, which should never be caught by Lysander under any circumstances unless the Eldar player chose to have that happen.

Calgar is more expensive because Calgar has additional army buffs in the form of Combat Tactics, Warlord bonuses, and additional Chapter Tactics Usage, in addition to being a beatstick not much worse than Lysander.

Another reason you don't see Lysander very much these days is because you can equip a generic chapter master to be most of what Lysander is, but on a bike instead. Bike + Artificer Armor + Thunder Hammer + Shield Eternal gets you a mobile EW beatstick that either has Hit and Run (if playing White Scars) or FNP (Iron Hands/Clan Raukaan). Lysander kind of needs a Land Raider to be his pope-mobile, and not that many people take Land Raider of any kind these days either.

He has his downsides, but he's still a great anchor piece in an Imperial Fists list.

abaddon, bloodthirster or any greater daemon, Swarmlord,gazghull,vect, overlords

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
abaddon, bloodthirster or any greater daemon, Swarmlord,gazghull,vect, overlords

Vect would get stomped. Overlords get beaten out more often than not, as do many unbuffed GDs.

BT Chapter Master with 2+ armour, Shield Eternal and Thunder Hammer. Rerolls to hit in challenges>Master-Crafted.

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
abaddon, bloodthirster or any greater daemon, Swarmlord,gazghull,vect, overlords

Vect would get stomped. Overlords get beaten out more often than not, as do many unbuffed GDs.

Care to share the math where overlords get beaten out more often than not?

Seeing as MSS causes even LD10 models to hit themselves 50% of the time with the overlord also hitting them, I don't see how you've come to that conclusion.

That's also ignoring the fact that overlords could also have a res orb which means that even on the 50% of the time you pass the MSS test, the overlord has a 50% chance to just get back up... That's if you get past T5 2+/3++ and he fails the saves...

Potentially newbie question.

How does Abaddon beat Lysander?

Maybe I just have hate for daemon weapons in the latest codex but I don't seem many redeemable features for abaddon in the current codex.

He has eternal warrior, and WS7, I6 with a possible 13 ap2 attacks on the charge. Veterans of the long war also gives him rerolls to hit the first round.

I don't have lysanders stats with me, but how do they stack up against abbadon?

Abaddon puts almost twice as many unsaved wounds on Lysander as he can put on Abaddon. This is how.

 BarBoBot wrote:
He has eternal warrior, and WS7, I6 with a possible 13 ap2 attacks on the charge. Veterans of the long war also gives him rerolls to hit the first round.

I don't have lysanders stats with me, but how do they stack up against abbadon?

Yeah he sounds like he will beat him up.

Lysander gets only 4 attacks on the charge, with one reroll. They hit at s10 ap1, but basically 13 ap2 attacks is nuts.

So much does Abbadon cost then? Surely fething heaps for such good stats, Lysander runs you 230.

Roughly 15% more or so. The points often do not seem to balance out sometimes for what you get.

Abby doesn't give any other bonuses to the army like Lysander does. Now weither or not anyone feels that those extra abilities that Lydander has is justified in his point cost beyond being a beat stick is purely opinion.

 BarBoBot wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
abaddon, bloodthirster or any greater daemon, Swarmlord,gazghull,vect, overlords

Vect would get stomped. Overlords get beaten out more often than not, as do many unbuffed GDs.

Care to share the math where overlords get beaten out more often than not?

Seeing as MSS causes even LD10 models to hit themselves 50% of the time with the overlord also hitting them, I don't see how you've come to that conclusion.

That's also ignoring the fact that overlords could also have a res orb which means that even on the 50% of the time you pass the MSS test, the overlord has a 50% chance to just get back up... That's if you get past T5 2+/3++ and he fails the saves...

Well, there is exactly a 50/50 shot of Lysander failing the MSS test, and he typically won't even have to worry about it if Lysander's unit initiates the charge, since very few Necron players have their lord in the front rank (just make the Necron player resolve MSS before challenges). The Overlord gets 3 attacks, needs a 4 to hit, average 1-2 hits/wounds , which typically ends up as in 0-1 wounds suffered by Lysander, who in turn will average 3-4 hits and wounds, which statistically speaking, results in a dead Overlord due to ID.

IF the OL comes back, its likely going to be put back down again, but it might take 2 rounds thanks to MSS.

Lysander is a great bargain face-puncher for sure.

1)As mentioned, things that will still own him in CC:
-Swarmlord (stay the f**k away from that guy!)
-Abby
-The Greater Daemon is arguable, it'd have to be decked out
-Burning Blade/Eternal Shield CM
-while MSS can be a pain in the ass, you only need to pass once to punch through

2)You're playing him correctly

3) Calgar is in a class of his own in the new dex, the buffs he brings to his army are sick, he's my new favorite dude.

Overall thoughts on Lysander: great bargain face-puncher, either use him to tank wounds for another squad or create a deathstar with him (hammernators, TDA chaplain and Lysander in a LRC)

Cheers.

I would like to see a fistfight between Lysander and the new Be'lakor. Be'lakor is WS9, S 6, 4 wounds, 6 attacks on the charge, has EW, always wounds on 2+ (fleshbane), master-crafted, has a 4++ and is shrouded, His sword is S+1, AP2, and Lysander would have a -1 to his leadership when taking fear tests. Let's not forget that Be'lakor is a Mastery level 3 psyker of the Telethapy discipline. Cast Hallucination and psychic shriek and the fight is almost over before a single blow is struck!

 sub-zero wrote:
I would like to see a fistfight between Lysander and the new Be'lakor. Be'lakor is WS9, S 6, 4 wounds, 6 attacks on the charge, has EW, always wounds on 2+ (fleshbane), master-crafted, has a 4++ and is shrouded, His sword is S+1, AP2, and Lysander would have a -1 to his leadership when taking fear tests. Let's not forget that Be'lakor is a Mastery level 3 psyker of the Telethapy discipline. Cast Hallucination and psychic shriek and the fight is almost over before a single blow is struck!

Well judging by that lot, it wouldnt even be a contest, Bel would whoop his ass.

I think the lack of EW on so many characters is a big deal, especially for T5 or lower models. I'd like to try more SM HQs, but basically, Ive noitced that loads of stuff hits at S8 and over, making them useless in a challenge. One hit from a run of the mill warboss with a PK and they are toast.

 mattyrm wrote:

 sub-zero wrote:
I would like to see a fistfight between Lysander and the new Be'lakor. Be'lakor is WS9, S 6, 4 wounds, 6 attacks on the charge, has EW, always wounds on 2+ (fleshbane), master-crafted, has a 4++ and is shrouded, His sword is S+1, AP2, and Lysander would have a -1 to his leadership when taking fear tests. Let's not forget that Be'lakor is a Mastery level 3 psyker of the Telethapy discipline. Cast Hallucination and psychic shriek and the fight is almost over before a single blow is struck!

Well judging by that lot, it wouldnt even be a contest, Bel would whoop his ass.

I think the lack of EW on so many characters is a big deal, especially for T5 or lower models. I'd like to try more SM HQs, but basically, Ive noitced that loads of stuff hits at S8 and over, making them useless in a challenge. One hit from a run of the mill warboss with a PK and they are toast.

This thread has given me the idea to start a very similar thread about Be'lakor. LOL

 ClassicCarraway wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
abaddon, bloodthirster or any greater daemon, Swarmlord,gazghull,vect, overlords

Vect would get stomped. Overlords get beaten out more often than not, as do many unbuffed GDs.

Care to share the math where overlords get beaten out more often than not?

Seeing as MSS causes even LD10 models to hit themselves 50% of the time with the overlord also hitting them, I don't see how you've come to that conclusion.

That's also ignoring the fact that overlords could also have a res orb which means that even on the 50% of the time you pass the MSS test, the overlord has a 50% chance to just get back up... That's if you get past T5 2+/3++ and he fails the saves...

Well, there is exactly a 50/50 shot of Lysander failing the MSS test, and he typically won't even have to worry about it if Lysander's unit initiates the charge, since very few Necron players have their lord in the front rank (just make the Necron player resolve MSS before challenges). The Overlord gets 3 attacks, needs a 4 to hit, average 1-2 hits/wounds , which typically ends up as in 0-1 wounds suffered by Lysander, who in turn will average 3-4 hits and wounds, which statistically speaking, results in a dead Overlord due to ID.

IF the OL comes back, its likely going to be put back down again, but it might take 2 rounds thanks to MSS.

Your involving other factors into a discussion about 1vs1 character fights. I'm talking about Lysander vs an overlord, and Lysander does not beat the overlord more times than not. It's exactly the opposite.

If you want to talk about how it might go down in an actual game, then its probably not an overlord that you'll be facing, it will be a destroyer lord with MSS, a res orb, preferred enemy with T6 (no ID from S10) and strikes at I2 with S7 ap1 attacks against Lysander who I believe has a thunder hammer and strikes last. The destroyer lord will be with wraiths, and unless the necron player makes a mistake, he will get the charge onLysander, not the other way around because the destroyer lord is JI and has more movement.

I've actually been in many challenges with Lysander and a Necron D'Lord as described above, and while I definitely think the D'Lord is a great beat stick, Lysander nearly always come out on top.

The D'Lord simply doesn't have the staying power in a challenge (no invulnerable). The res orb is nice but fairly easily countered (assuming Lysander isn't alone). I usually will pass at least 1 MSS which is sufficient to squish the D'Lord.

The only times I've lost to the D'Lord is when Lysander has already been wounded prior to the fight or exceptionally poor rolls.

I believe that no-one has yet mentioned a certain character.
He is known as Asurmen.

Most likely 6 hits on Initiative 7.
Hits on threes (don't recall if his weapon is master-crafted or not).
Wounds on threes.
AP2 so he takes Inv.
He fails -> takes Ld. Fails -> removed (way to cheat EW, ey?).

Not likely, yes but with couple of turns he might do it since he has EW and 4+ Inv. (Haven't done the mathhammer here).

But the important thing is that while Lysander is a beatstick, he doesn't help his army in any way. Asurmen gets D3 WL traits which can do this (and one of these traits is re-rolling 1's on saving rolls, which will be useful against Lassie).

I'm pretty sure the Iron Hands Chapter Master "Smash-fether" (you know what I mean) beats him.

His wargear goes like this:

Chap Master, Clan Raakaun, Thunder Hammer, Lightning Claw, Digital Weapons, Chains of the Gorgon, Artificer, Bike

Lucarikx

 phoenix darkus wrote:
I've actually been in many challenges with Lysander and a Necron D'Lord as described above, and while I definitely think the D'Lord is a great beat stick, Lysander nearly always come out on top.

The D'Lord simply doesn't have the staying power in a challenge (no invulnerable). The res orb is nice but fairly easily countered (assuming Lysander isn't alone). I usually will pass at least 1 MSS which is sufficient to squish the D'Lord.

The only times I've lost to the D'Lord is when Lysander has already been wounded prior to the fight or exceptionally poor rolls.

I'm not sure your experiences are statistically normal though.

The 50% of the time that Lysander passes the MSS, yes he has a better chance at killing the d lord, but the d lord gets up 50% of the time, so before factoring in to-hit and to-wound rolls, there is already a 75% chance the d lord will survive. (50% MSS, 50% RP)

The other 50% of the time that Lysander fails the test, he gets hit with S7 ap1 attacks with rerolls of 1's on hit and wound, as well as hitting himself with his own S10 ap2 attacks while the d lord takes no damage.

Anything can happen with dice, but the odds are in the d lords favor.

Yeah baby, Abby the fethin Despoiler

as said a necron overlord will take him down

ive used WS/mss/phylactory/teseract/phase/weave

that guy has yet to loose.
4 attacks at ws 5 str 7 ap 1.
2+/3++ gets back up if knocked down and gains d3 wound back.
t5, 4 wounds.

every round you take a 3d6 ld check or beatyourself up, then take my warscythe to the face. and if you have 2 or less wounds, i just tesseract you and watch you go away with no saves at all.

this guy vrs lysander = DONE

Every time my GUO fights lysander, lysander loses.