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I can see it being a cost cutting exercise, Warhammer World is heaving most of the time anyway and all the future events are almost booked up already.
They probably see there is no need to take more people there at cost, I dont think this is a big thing really, I was surprised that they still actually did these trips anyway.

Seems pretty sensible to me. The new approach for shops seems to be the single staff member, and you can't seriously shut down a retail outlet for a day to make a loss somewhere else. There are plenty of gaming clubs, organise a visit there if you want to see the place, It's the reason I'm going in the near future.

 Polonius wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
How the hell is anything oedipal in here?!?

I take joy in any accusation that says more about the accuser than the accused.

Part of me assumes that rather then oedipal, they meant "visceral." I'm no shrink, but seeing the sheer passionate dislike for much of GW's decisions would startle the casual observer. I think it makes sense given the investment made into the hobby (money, time, creativity, and emotion), but there are times when it gets a bit much.

Still, another part thinks that the poster meant oedipal.

It's very Oedipal, in respect of the rejection of a father or authority figure. Some people are shocked and disgusted to realise that GW is a commercial company, which exists to make money and provide returns to its shareholders. Then a few people discover they like expressing that shock and disgust more than they do painting or using the product.

xruslanx wrote:
Just look at *any* thread about *anything* GW does. It will be immediately filled by a "consensus" that GW is crap/useless/evil.

There is a (currently) 48-page Tyranid rumours thread in News 7 Rumours right now that suggests otherwise.

Dakka doesn't have a 'hate culture' towards GW. What we do have is a large number of gamers who have been around a while and don't see any reason to cut them any slack for sub-par work, though. So yes, GW cop some stick when they do something that isn't great... and they've copped a lot of that lately because they've done a lot of stupid recently. But 'Dakka' as a community is also generally more than happy to give praise when they do something right. Exhibit A, Tyranids.

Whatever, you guys are clearly not interested in any discussion - since apparently, according to you, my 'behavior' in other threads means it's okay to disregard anything I say, ever.

Yes, people will form an opinion of you, and the worth of your potential contribution to a discussion, based on your behaviour. Surprising, but true.

The problem is that some people have grown up with GW as a company, and the company has grown with them. The dakka-ite grows up (sometimes) and doesn't like that GW has had to as well.

I would love to still pop into the shop, with one staff member painting, another running a game and the other there to chat, and pick up a Rhino and a Tac squad for 15 quid, but it's just not the way the world works

 insaniak wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Just look at *any* thread about *anything* GW does. It will be immediately filled by a "consensus" that GW is crap/useless/evil.

There is a (currently) 48-page Tyranid rumours thread in News 7 Rumours right now that suggests otherwise.

Dakka doesn't have a 'hate culture' towards GW. What we do have is a large number of gamers who have been around a while and don't see any reason to cut them any slack for sub-par work, though. So yes, GW cop some stick when they do something that isn't great... and they've copped a lot of that lately because they've done a lot of stupid recently. But 'Dakka' as a community is also generally more than happy to give praise when they do something right. Exhibit A, Tyranids.

This is all subjective of course, but the dakka tyranids thread, especially compared to other fora, did indeed boast quite a lot of negativity - people who don't play tyranids jumping in to say some of the new items don't look great, alleging that it's all the usual game of nerfing existing troops so everyone buys new models, saying that if you spend $1000 you get a free plastic bag.

It's great to have a range of opinions, but some people love to flock to negative threads, complaining say, that GW don't give away free painting guides... then stay away from threads about, say, free GW painting guides (or else complain that GW don't give them free iPads).

The Division Of Joy wrote:
The problem is that some people have grown up with GW as a company, and the company has grown with them. The dakka-ite grows up (sometimes) and doesn't like that GW has had to as well.

^^This. I've only recently got back into GW after a 10 - 15 year gap and it's a very different company from the one I remember...

I haven’t read the entire thread but everyone seems to presume that htis is just cost cutting from GW, however it is also possible that there are a large range of reasons that GW might have stopped this, to list a few:

1) The coach company may have increased the cost – GW might have decided that whilst people will pay £30 to get there they will not pay £50
2) Insurance – it may sound daft, but if GW put on a coach trip then they are responsible for the people until they drop them off at home, this leaves them open being sued if the person involved does something stupid and gets hurt – whilst if the person makes their own way to the event and does something stupid then it is the persons fault (note this is if the incident was the persons fault, obviously if the wall fell in on them then GW is responsible either way). GW insurance company might have put up costs and again GW might have decided that this would have made the cost of a ticket too much (English law is stupid like this, in Winter my parents cannot grit the steps down to their shop as if they grit them and some slips and hurts themselves then my parents can be sued for not doing it properly, where as if they do not grit them then it is an act of god and my parents are safe)
3) GW might have decided that it is unfair for more local customers to fund longer distance ones. The price of £30 here has been used a lot so I presume everyone paid this? – but surely it costs more to put on a coach trip from Scotland than it does from within Nottinghamshire?
4) Calendar space, I’m not sure how many people actually look at the WW calendar, but it’s pretty full already – they may have decided that running the tournaments is more important (and probably profitable) than running these day trips

That’s just 4 points that quickly spring to mind as to why GW might have had to stop these – none of which are cost cutting, whilst I get that GW isn’t liked much on this board, and often with good reason, let’s not assume that everything they do is evil.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Just look at *any* thread about *anything* GW does. It will be immediately filled by a "consensus" that GW is crap/useless/evil.

There is a (currently) 48-page Tyranid rumours thread in News 7 Rumours right now that suggests otherwise.

Dakka doesn't have a 'hate culture' towards GW. What we do have is a large number of gamers who have been around a while and don't see any reason to cut them any slack for sub-par work, though. So yes, GW cop some stick when they do something that isn't great... and they've copped a lot of that lately because they've done a lot of stupid recently. But 'Dakka' as a community is also generally more than happy to give praise when they do something right. Exhibit A, Tyranids.

This is all subjective of course, but the dakka tyranids thread, especially compared to other fora, did indeed boast quite a lot of negativity - people who don't play tyranids jumping in to say some of the new items don't look great, alleging that it's all the usual game of nerfing existing troops so everyone buys new models, saying that if you spend $1000 you get a free plastic bag.

It's great to have a range of opinions, but some people love to flock to negative threads, complaining say, that GW don't give away free painting guides... then stay away from threads about, say, free GW painting guides (or else complain that GW don't give them free iPads).

You've demonstrated a particular sensitivity with regard to criticism of anything in the Nid thread (you reacted to one of my posts as if I was trashing the models, for instance, when in fact I'd explicitly said I like most of what I've seen of them) so yes, I'd say in this instance perception of that thread is extremely subjective for you, to the point where objectivity is going to be very difficult.

What I think you've got to bear in mind with regard to Dakka is that it is a genuine community with a large cross section of gamers. It would take an extraordinarily motivated (and slightly sad) individual to sign up for a LOTR specialist board, or Nid or whatever, purely to start being negative about that product. What Dakka has, which perhaps is much rarer on other forums, is a pretty tolerant moderator team, combined with a whole range of different perspectives which aren't necessarily all going to be positive about everything all the time.

That's why Dakka's the bestest.

beast_gts wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
The problem is that some people have grown up with GW as a company, and the company has grown with them. The dakka-ite grows up (sometimes) and doesn't like that GW has had to as well.

^^This. I've only recently got back into GW after a 10 - 15 year gap and it's a very different company from the one I remember...

I'm the same actually. And yes it's more expensive, and the magazine isn't as good. But it's a different world we live in now and things change. I bought a Hive Tyrant last week, it's a bloody fantastic sculpt, nothing like that would have existed. I have just bought a 2nd ed Carnifex from eBay and the difference is brilliant

People feel like they own a little bit of GW because it's filled a space in their hearts for an age. But really, it's the hobby that has, not the company. That's why if I ever feel like I'm not happy, I'll buy from one of the many other companies. I know my local club (Gobstyks, bit of free plugging there!) play plenty of different games.

The trouble with the internet is that everyone gets a chance to beleive that their opinion matters, when in fact it probably doesn't. But hell, where's the fun in just one big backslapping session when you can pass the time sniping at each other

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
It's very Oedipal, in respect of the rejection of a father or authority figure. Some people are shocked and disgusted to realise that GW is a commercial company, which exists to make money and provide returns to its shareholders. Then a few people discover they like expressing that shock and disgust more than they do painting or using the product.

I think that's stretching the semi-technical term Oedipal well past it's breaking point.

I'm sure it's a normal psychodynamic process, but the oedipal complex is far more specific than what you are generalizing.

I don't see why GW couldn't just up the ticket price a little?

Perhaps send the coach to the one man store anyway, the people that want to go just meet at the store and go to meet the coach at a predetermined location...

 Polonius wrote:

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
It's very Oedipal, in respect of the rejection of a father or authority figure. Some people are shocked and disgusted to realise that GW is a commercial company, which exists to make money and provide returns to its shareholders. Then a few people discover they like expressing that shock and disgust more than they do painting or using the product.

I think that's stretching the semi-technical term Oedipal well past it's breaking point.

I'm sure it's a normal psychodynamic process, but the oedipal complex is far more specific than what you are generalizing.

That and the old "GW is a company and exists to make money and give a return to its shareholders" is just an extremely weak and rather tin-eared excuse for their pattern of behaviour.

Anyway... this feels like bad news for me on a local gaming scene level, as the local GW manager has announced on facebook that, as a result of this decision, he will be working more closely with the local gaming club.
I have a horrible suspicion that non GW products are soon going to be frowned upon. I hope I'm wrong, but the main club runner is already a little.. zealous, in his GW support.

It's an utterly true statement.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
It's an utterly true statement.

And? So? But? Therefore?

I just realised who I replied to. I know what happens to people that try and tell you what they think of your input on here, so I'll refrain from any reply that might give you the indication that I want to discuss things with you further. This is in no way meant to be insulting or against the rules on here in anyway, I just would like to be able to post on here in the future.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

The Division Of Joy wrote:
It's an utterly true statement.

And? So? But? Therefore?

The first rule of Tautology Club is the first rule of Tautology Club.

The Division Of Joy wrote:
I just realised who I replied to.

"Come now, don't be shy. Step into the light." - Smaug the Stupendous

 Alpharius wrote:
How the hell is anything oedipal in here?!?

Seriously xruslanx - stop it.

He's demonstrating that there's a difference between knowing a word and having a functional understanding of its usage.

Trying to goad someone into a response is similar to trying to start a flame war, so lets drop it eh.

Oh grow a sense of humour.

 azreal13 wrote:

You've demonstrated a particular sensitivity with regard to criticism of anything in the Nid thread...

Why would criticism be offensive? The only thing that would be bad would be an imposed groupthink, a need to pick on "minority viewpoints" or an obsession with complaining rather than gaming. But that wouldn't be offensive, rather a little sad.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

That and the old "GW is a company and exists to make money and give a return to its shareholders" is just an extremely weak and rather tin-eared excuse for their pattern of behaviour.

But it's reality, isn't it? Google short termism UK Plc and you'll find that this is a well-known phenomenon. That's not to say that the short-termism isn't irritating, but I personally find that GW's attempts to keep manufacturing in the UK make them more acceptable than many other Brit Plcs.

Anyways, gotta say we hugely enjoyed our trip to Warhammer World in the summer, but the idea of being taken there in a coach from our local GW ain't my idea of fun - it would be interesting to hear from someone who's done the trip, of what the take-up was like.

It is true yes, but being true doesn't mean it's the whole truth or even relevant to the discussion at hand (hence: tautology).

Cuts both ways. Yeah, trotting out "they're a business and businesses have to make money" as a blanket excuse is tedious, but so is criticising what are obviously commercial decisions for being thus. You kind of invite the "it's a commercial decision" defense when you complain about commercial decisions for not having more heart. The whole discussion's pretty pointless.

It's the internet, nothing discussed is ever pointless!

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

You've demonstrated a particular sensitivity with regard to criticism of anything in the Nid thread...

Why would criticism be offensive? The only thing that would be bad would be an imposed groupthink, a need to pick on "minority viewpoints" or an obsession with complaining rather than gaming. But that wouldn't be offensive, rather a little sad.

I don't know, why would criticism be offensive? You seemed to react negatively to something I said that was unarguably positive, so you seem better qualified than I to answer.

Splendid quotation of a partial sentence and attempt to have a subtle dig that goes under the Mod radar BTW, all things that will encourage me to take your "minority viewpoint" oh so seriously.

 Bull0 wrote:
Cuts both ways. Yeah, trotting out "they're a business and businesses have to make money" as a blanket excuse is tedious, but so is criticising what are obviously commercial decisions for being thus. You kind of invite the "it's a commercial decision" defense when you complain about commercial decisions for not having more heart. The whole discussion's pretty pointless.

I never complained about this not having any heart. My original comment was more about how much one can cut (in the context of a business decision) before one runs out of things to cut or begins to really hurt themselves.

Generally, the discussion is about if the business decision is wise, though. Meaning, even as a commerciial, bottom line decision, does the decision make sense?

Given GW's dwindling sales and market share, questioning the decision making of their managment is probably valid.

In this case, I think a lot of folks are over valuing the loss leader aspect of these trips. Meaning, while they might result in people buying stuff, I wonder if there is an actual increase, or is it that maybe people that are keen to tour Warhammer World are going to buy more GW regardless?

Also, regardless of the validity of a decision, if it hurts consumers, I think consumers can, you know, kvetch a bit about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I never complained about this not having any heart. My original comment was more about how much one can cut (in the context of a business decision) before one runs out of things to cut or begins to really hurt themselves.

that seems to be the real question, doesn't it? And I mean than in a totally sincere way. Virtually all profits from the last few years have been from cost cutting, not expanding sales. You don't need an MBA to understand what that means for hte long term viability of a company.

Honestly I don't think this is a bad business decision, and I agree with Polonius that we might be overstating just how much of a "loss leader" such an Invasion programme might have been.

But at the same time it just looks like another cost-cutting measure from a company that's quickly running out of things to cut.