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 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The thing is, though, that Primarchs are still made from matter. Organic matter, no less. They may have adamantium-laced bone (even this is doubtful; did they eat regular doses of the stuff while growing up on their individual worlds?) or something, but anything as destructively powerful as even the smallest weapons on a Titan (or indeed, a meltagun) are going to kill them outright unless they have some form of psychic/daemon invulnerable save (Magnus), much less a starship weapon.

I don't care how much of a badass you are, or how genetically modified you are. Your skin/bone/muscle is not possibly tougher than Terminator armour or even remotely on par with a Necron Monolith. Vehicles can be melta-immune because they have specific systems to deal with the heat, and usually very thick, very strong armour. Nothing short of Void Shields are capable of withstanding Strength-D weapons.

I agree with the above line, though; "This isn't because they're invulnerable to a meltagun to the face, but because they're so good at battle/fighting this type of war that the chances of them ever getting caught by said melta to the face are too small". To a degree, anyway. It'd never happen because a Primarch's greatest strength is their plot armour; in reality, such a high-value target would be immediately saturated with all manner of orbital strikes, artillery, and every other available scrap of firepower until nothing remains but atoms.

Personally, I always found Batman Konrad's death to be idiotic and pointless. It completely detracts from the ability of Callidus assassins, and layers on even more emphasis on the mindless butchering of female characters at every possible turn (oh no, my target was actually the Deceiver and I've been eaten, how sad). Not only did she kill him because he let her do it (so really, for all her skill she may as well have been a legless baby playing with a D-Cannon), but he gave specific orders for her to be allowed to leave - which were ignored and she was brutally slaughtered, anyway. Had it been an Eversor, we would have likely been treated to a lovely description of the Eversor's corpse surrounded by the remains of dozens of slaughtered Night Lords, the Night Haunter's lifeless head clutched almost jealously in his bloodied and Neuro-Gauntleted hand. It's not "oooh female characters should never die!", but that the story completely removes all skill on her part. She may as well have not been there at all.

Except they have tanked shots from titan and starship weapons. And the Primarchs were allegedly created with powers stolen from Chaos/Immaterium. And as various strange creatures in W40K have shown us- just because you're made of flesh doesn't mean it can be supernaturally/impossibly strong.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
EDIT: Speaking of misogyny, I get the distinct impression that LightKing's argument (judging by the PMs to several people all following the same pattern) revolves not around a Primarch vs a mortal, but a Primarch vs a woman. Just from the repeated mention of Battle-Sisters, specifically. And of course, all of the Primarchs are male...

Nah, not the impression I got. I think that he was just taking advantage of the fact that both Marines and Sisters have some strong suporters in order to play people against each other and start a gakstorm.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
(...)
Personally, I always found Batman Konrad's death to be idiotic and pointless. It completely detracts from the ability of Callidus assassins, and layers on even more emphasis on the mindless butchering of female characters at every possible turn (oh no, my target was actually the Deceiver and I've been eaten, how sad). Not only did she kill him because he let her do it (so really, for all her skill she may as well have been a legless baby playing with a D-Cannon), but he gave specific orders for her to be allowed to leave - which were ignored and she was brutally slaughtered, anyway. Had it been an Eversor, we would have likely been treated to a lovely description of the Eversor's corpse surrounded by the remains of dozens of slaughtered Night Lords, the Night Haunter's lifeless head clutched almost jealously in his bloodied and Neuro-Gauntleted hand. It's not "oooh female characters should never die!", but that the story completely removes all skill on her part. She may as well have not been there at all.

EDIT: Speaking of misogyny, I get the distinct impression that LightKing's argument (judging by the PMs to several people all following the same pattern) revolves not around a Primarch vs a mortal, but a Primarch vs a woman. Just from the repeated mention of Battle-Sisters, specifically. And of course, all of the Primarchs are male...

I share your feelings. Both about LightKing being quite able to accept that men like Kor Phaeron, Luther or someone with a very big gun would have a chance against Primarchs while openly mocking at the idea of a woman doing the same, and what you wrote about Konrad´s death.

However, I would like to point out that the original story didn´t go that way. Curze letting the assassin killing him was kind of... unique, and no senseless stuff about Callidus assassins being pointless was to be found. That´s a posterior addition by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, a great author with a great, great hard-on on Marines and a tendency to change stuff he finds not cool enough. So yeah, a Marine killing a Callidus assassin. Take that. And the Emperor is an idiot, sending pathetically weak (as in "non-Marines") assassins against someone protected by mighty Astartes, a single one of them being a match for the most powerful assassins the Imperium has. And to make the senselessness of this bit more... palatable to the average w40k fan, the stupidly weak red shirt is a woman. It wouldn´t have worked with a male Eversor. There would be Marines torn to pieces everywhere, to the bitter tears of some fans.

Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.

Now, please, explain to me that the Emperor was a fool who ignored that the Primarchs couldn´t be killed by a mortal.

And explain to me how a single bullet, poisoned by a master of the Venenum Temple using the knowledge of the Primarch Project given to them by Malcador himself specifically to kill a Primarch, following a plan designed by a Vanus Master Assassin, and fired by an Exitus Rifle, will bound off the head of a Primarch because.... why? Because the Officio Assassinorum lacks a Codex since third edition and nobody remembers what they do?

The only things that are made of "flesh" and extremely strong are certain types of Tyranid; who are all covered in extremely strong and extremely thick armour. Saying that "because a Hierodule can take a meltagun, a Guardsman can because they're all fleshies" is the same as saying that a Land Speeder is equivalent to a Battle Barge because they're both vehicles, usually have Space Marines in them, and don't have wheels.

Even that doesn't cover it. Not even a Primarch-sized block of Adamantium could survive these things, so how could they have any hope? "Tanking" shots from these things is as "alleged" as their creation being supernatural (which is only hinted at). Also, if a Titan/Starship weapon could kill one, there is no way that a C'tan Phaseblade would be able to, even if the Primarch in question was letting it happen. The only possible way for anything to take a shot from a starship or Titan is if The Emperor decided to intervene with a supershield of psychic power or something. I'm going with the idea that these stories are massively exaggerated versions of what really happened.

Daemons are literally made from magic, not "flesh", and are the only "creatures" that match or exceed certain Tyranids for durability.

EDIT: More posts happened! Nemesis is a rather... interesting story, on the topic of female characters doing stuff. A number of the team are female, but fail to do anything except get killed by a random daemon. And then the Vindicaire (who killed the Daemon) spaces himself to get a shot at Horus and fails miserably!

You do raise a good point, though, that Assassins were reasonably considered to be able to get the job done. It's just unfortunate that they happened to send a team comprised entirely of the most incompetent assassins in the entire galaxy. Also yeah, poor Marines. I wouldn't mind so much if it was simply that - Kurze letting her kill him because he's crazy. It fits. I didn't know it was a change, but the rest of it on top of that just makes it feel like "Yeah no Callidus suck so yeah".

 Troike wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
EDIT: Speaking of misogyny, I get the distinct impression that LightKing's argument (judging by the PMs to several people all following the same pattern) revolves not around a Primarch vs a mortal, but a Primarch vs a woman. Just from the repeated mention of Battle-Sisters, specifically. And of course, all of the Primarchs are male...

Nah, not the impression I got. I think that he was just taking advantage of the fact that both Marines and Sisters have some strong suporters in order to play people against each other and start a gakstorm.

Perhaps.
Sometimes he acts like a troll, sometimes he does not. I am not sure anymore.

Anyway, if that is the case I think he is failing miserably. At least I am enjoying some of his senseless threads.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I thoroughly love this thread. Watching LightKing repeat the "Guilleman in space" or the other three or four select phrases in response to anything that may or may not be relevant is great.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The only things that are made of "flesh" and extremely strong are certain types of Tyranid; who are all covered in extremely strong and extremely thick armour. Saying that "because a Hierodule can take a meltagun, a Guardsman can because they're all fleshies" is the same as saying that a Land Speeder is equivalent to a Battle Barge because they're both vehicles, usually have Space Marines in them, and don't have wheels.

Even that doesn't cover it. Not even a Primarch-sized block of Adamantium could survive these things, so how could they have any hope? "Tanking" shots from these things is as "alleged" as their creation being supernatural (which is only hinted at). Also, if a Titan/Starship weapon could kill one, there is no way that a C'tan Phaseblade would be able to, even if the Primarch in question was letting it happen. The only possible way for anything to take a shot from a starship or Titan is if The Emperor decided to intervene with a supershield of psychic power or something. I'm going with the idea that these stories are massively exaggerated versions of what really happened.

Daemons are literally made from magic, not "flesh", and are the only "creatures" that match or exceed certain Tyranids for durability.

EDIT: More posts happened! Nemesis is a rather... interesting story, on the topic of female characters doing stuff. A number of the team are female, but fail to do anything except get killed by a random daemon. And then the Vindicaire (who killed the Daemon) spaces himself to get a shot at Horus and fails miserably!

You do raise a good point, though, that Assassins were reasonably considered to be able to get the job done. It's just unfortunate that they happened to send a team comprised entirely of the most incompetent assassins in the entire galaxy. Also yeah, poor Marines. I wouldn't mind so much if it was simply that - Kurze letting her kill him because he's crazy. It fits. I didn't know it was a change, but the rest of it on top of that just makes it feel like "Yeah no Callidus suck so yeah".

And you're forgetting the myriad of warp-infused Astartes that creates strange creatures like Obliterators and Mutilators. And the Primarchs are literal demigods and not humans in the least.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The thing is, though, that Primarchs are still made from matter. Organic matter, no less. They may have adamantium-laced bone (even this is doubtful; did they eat regular doses of the stuff while growing up on their individual worlds?) or something, but anything as destructively powerful as even the smallest weapons on a Titan (or indeed, a meltagun) are going to kill them outright unless they have some form of psychic/daemon invulnerable save (Magnus), much less a starship weapon.

To be perfectly blunt, what you "think" has exactly no basis on what actually is.

If your personal canon of 40k doesn't have nigh-invulnerable Primarchs, that is fine, but do not deign to make absolutist statements on their durability when the only basis for it is what you would like to be the case.

Vulkan surviving macron cannons (I forgot who responded to this, this thread and the other one are hard to keep track of replies, but Vulkan, although he is a perpetual, took the macron cannon without needing to regenerate, IIRC), Angron having a mountain dropped on his head, Lorgar actually surviving Titan weaponry (And it must be said he defeated An'ggrath in martial combat, who eats Titans for breakfast), etc. These happened.

I don't care how much of a badass you are, or how genetically modified you are. Your skin/bone/muscle is not possibly tougher than Terminator armour or even remotely on par with a Necron Monolith. Vehicles can be melta-immune because they have specific systems to deal with the heat, and usually very thick, very strong armour. Nothing short of Void Shields are capable of withstanding Strength-D weapons.

Ferrus Manus' fists go through Terminator Armour as though they are butter, as shown and stated, but could only "lightly bruise the flesh of a Primarch".

I agree with the above line, though; "This isn't because they're invulnerable to a meltagun to the face, but because they're so good at battle/fighting this type of war that the chances of them ever getting caught by said melta to the face are too small". To a degree, anyway. It'd never happen because a Primarch's greatest strength is their plot armour; in reality, such a high-value target would be immediately saturated with all manner of orbital strikes, artillery, and every other available scrap of firepower until nothing remains but atoms.

It could also be both.

Personally, I always found Batman Konrad's death to be idiotic and pointless. It completely detracts from the ability of Callidus assassins, and layers on even more emphasis on the mindless butchering of female characters at every possible turn (oh no, my target was actually the Deceiver and I've been eaten, how sad). Not only did she kill him because he let her do it (so really, for all her skill she may as well have been a legless baby playing with a D-Cannon), but he gave specific orders for her to be allowed to leave - which were ignored and she was brutally slaughtered, anyway.

So do you believe that M'Shen should have been able to kill Curze up-close and personal on her own merits?

Had it been an Eversor, we would have likely been treated to a lovely description of the Eversor's corpse surrounded by the remains of dozens of slaughtered Night Lords, the Night Haunter's lifeless head clutched almost jealously in his bloodied and Neuro-Gauntleted hand.It's not "oooh female characters should never die!", but that the story completely removes all skill on her part. She may as well have not been there at all.

She still managed to infiltrate inside without anyone but Curze himself noticing.

Your comments on the Eversor are entirely speculation, and also ignore that the Callidus' abilities are what allowed her to infiltrate. How would an Eversor manage it?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 da001 wrote:

Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.

A. The Emperor had no knowledge of the assassination attempt.
B. Malcador and the High Lords did not create the Primarchs.
C. (This is the important one) They... Oh, that's right, they failed.

Malcador is wrong about a lot of things. For example: He wishes he could have saved Lorgar, viewing him as the most innocent of those who threw their lot in with Chaos. Oh, how wrong he was.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
(...)

EDIT: More posts happened! Nemesis is a rather... interesting story, on the topic of female characters doing stuff. A number of the team are female, but fail to do anything except get killed by a random daemon. And then the Vindicaire (who killed the Daemon) spaces himself to get a shot at Horus and fails miserably!

You do raise a good point, though, that Assassins were reasonably considered to be able to get the job done. It's just unfortunate that they happened to send a team comprised entirely of the most incompetent assassins in the entire galaxy. Also yeah, poor Marines. I wouldn't mind so much if it was simply that - Kurze letting her kill him because he's crazy. It fits. I didn't know it was a change, but the rest of it on top of that just makes it feel like "Yeah no Callidus suck so yeah".

Nemesis is lacking many things, not among my favorites at all.

About Curze´s death, here is the relevant section from Index Astartes II: Bringers of Darkness.

As you can see, the story was tantalizingly vague, as most stories concerning the Primarchs before the books. So ADB... "expanded" it, taking out some stuff he didn´t like, such as the description of the palace of Tsagualsa. And then feel the need to make it clear that Marines are awesome to the point of making the story pointless.

By the way, I strongly recommend the reading of the Index Astartes, all of them. They are among the best fluff ever written for this setting.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
Oh, don't get me wrong. I thoroughly love this thread. Watching LightKing repeat the "Guilleman in space" or the other three or four select phrases in response to anything that may or may not be relevant is great.

My personal fav: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/390/568060.page#6358825

 Wyzilla wrote:

And you're forgetting the myriad of warp-infused Astartes that creates strange creatures like Obliterators and Mutilators. And the Primarchs are literal demigods and not humans in the least.

But they can be killed.
Some of them were killed, and others were beaten, defeated or wounded by "minor" creatures. Humans, Astartes, their own psychological problems... They are at the top of the food chain, but they can be defeated. Which makes them interesting.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

Even that doesn't cover it. Not even a Primarch-sized block of Adamantium could survive these things, so how could they have any hope? "Tanking" shots from these things is as "alleged" as their creation being supernatural (which is only hinted at). Also, if a Titan/Starship weapon could kill one, there is no way that a C'tan Phaseblade would be able to, even if the Primarch in question was letting it happen. The only possible way for anything to take a shot from a starship or Titan is if The Emperor decided to intervene with a supershield of psychic power or something. I'm going with the idea that these stories are massively exaggerated versions of what really happened.

If you are going to just deny and arbitrarily dismiss instances which do not fit with your preconceptions of the setting, you have no place in this thread.

C'tan Phase Blades would penetrate the hardiest of bunkers that even an orbital bombardment wouldn't go through in the fluff. Their source (The C'tan) operate on a scale higher than any Imperial technology.

Daemons are literally made from magic, not "flesh", and are the only "creatures" that match or exceed certain Tyranids for durability.

It is highly implied that the Primarchs are Warp-based. All have a psychic signature and can perceive Warp phenomena, even if they don't have active powers.

(Only read the first two pages so sorry if this has been covered since.)
Melissa said, by the sounds of it, very reasonably, that she believes a meltagun to the face would kill a primarch. This in no way implicates that a cannoness is stronger than a primarch. So your question should read, does a cannoness have a chance of killing a primarch. Or even better, does a 10 year old child holding a meltagun have a chance of killing a primarch (why limited to a cannoness?). The way you have portrayed it is totally out of context to what was discussed by the sound of it and have drawn people in with a title which is intentionally provocative. The title actually in no way reflects the statement you are trying to discuss. You should contact the Daily Mail, Murdoch adores journalists with this 'skill'.

Vulkan surviving being hit by a 1000 ton shell going a fraction of the speed of light (that's what a macro cannon is) and being mostly intact?
Jesus Christ that's a little absurd even for me. That's something that would feth up Post Crisis Superman.

Wyzilla wrote:
And you're forgetting the myriad of warp-infused Astartes that creates strange creatures like Obliterators and Mutilators. And the Primarchs are literal demigods and not humans in the least.

Obliterators and Mutilators are guys wearing Terminator Armour who can make their arms turn into weapons (because of the Warp). I don't see why this has any bearing on whether or not non-Chaotic Primarchs can survive melta shots to the face. Also, maybe they aren't humans, but what possible material are they made of? That's what I'm getting at! Their humanity has nothing to do with it.

Void__Dragon wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The thing is, though, that Primarchs are still made from matter. Organic matter, no less. They may have adamantium-laced bone (even this is doubtful; did they eat regular doses of the stuff while growing up on their individual worlds?) or something, but anything as destructively powerful as even the smallest weapons on a Titan (or indeed, a meltagun) are going to kill them outright unless they have some form of psychic/daemon invulnerable save (Magnus), much less a starship weapon.

To be perfectly blunt, what you "think" has exactly no basis on what actually is.

If your personal canon of 40k doesn't have nigh-invulnerable Primarchs, that is fine, but do not deign to make absolutist statements on their durability when the only basis for it is what you would like to be the case.

And this doesn't also apply to you how, exactly? Everything anyone ever says is what they "think".

Void__Dragon wrote:
Vulkan surviving macron cannons (I forgot who responded to this, this thread and the other one are hard to keep track of replies, but Vulkan, although he is a perpetual, took the macron cannon without needing to regenerate, IIRC), Angron having a mountain dropped on his head, Lorgar actually surviving Titan weaponry (And it must be said he defeated An'ggrath in martial combat, who eats Titans for breakfast), etc. These happened.

Cast-iron proof, of course. Despite repeated mentions of how everything in 40k is meant to be taken with a pinch of salt?

Void__Dragon wrote:
So do you believe that M'Shen should have been able to kill Curze up-close and personal on her own merits?

Maybe, maybe not. Even if she couldn't, that doesn't mean that, as an assassin, she will engage him in close combat regardless just because she has a knife. Part of the skill of an assassin is overcoming obstacles; being unable to best him in close-combat doesn't mean she couldn't have caused his ship to explode or something.

Man this thread, what did I just read?

Oh, you responded twice to a single post.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

If you are going to just deny and arbitrarily dismiss instances which do not fit with your preconceptions of the setting, you have no place in this thread.

C'tan Phase Blades would penetrate the hardiest of bunkers that even an orbital bombardment wouldn't go through in the fluff. Their source (The C'tan) operate on a scale higher than any Imperial technology.

Daemons are literally made from magic, not "flesh", and are the only "creatures" that match or exceed certain Tyranids for durability.

It is highly implied that the Primarchs are Warp-based. All have a psychic signature and can perceive Warp phenomena, even if they don't have active powers.

The ability of Primarchs to resist these things only works if they have some kind of invincibility shield, as there is no possible physical material they could be made from that would protect them so. You are presuming that they do. So why, then, would a C'tan phaseblade ignore this as it ignores matter? That's my point. It's hardly "arbitrary".

It also really isn't "highly" implied. Sure they might have stronger Warp signatures than normal due to their connection to the Emperor (remember, every soul has a Warp signature), but that doesn't mean they get a 1++ rerollable invulnerable.

EDIT:

 WrentheFaceless wrote:
Man this thread, what did I just read?

Bery srns bsns.

Did this thread really just happen?

Anyone pointed out how a lucky gretchin with a meltagun would also be able to beat a primarch 1v1 yet? How about a lost squig with a meltabomb vs a baneblade or titan?

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

What my sister has to say about this thread (AIM) wrote:
40K IS BERY SRS
no fun allowed
stop that fun
right now
don't laugh
this is tiny models we're talking about
pretty much religion
also
can I point out
that thread title
we don't know the difference between 'than' and 'then', apparently
so basically it says
so a Canoness is strong, then! A primarch!
she was just stronger by herself
and then there was also a Primarch
in an unrelated incident

I detect a hint of mockery. That is most heretical, and not at all SUPA SRS BIZNIZ.
The fact that was in caps should give you an idea about how srs this is.

What about the grot who began the 14th and final Black Crusade? You see, there was an Imperial warship about to enact a bold plan; fire an incredibly large barrage of Vortex Missiles into the Eye of Terror, and hope it goes away.

Meanwhile, on the other side of the galaxy, a grot is fired through a SAG and ends up on this ship. Wandering for a while, this grot finds some buttons, which it promptly pushes.

Vortex missiles consume Cadia, and the Eye of Terror swells to consume the entire galaxy. Rocks fall, everyone dies.

EDIT: But wait! The Primarchs all wake up (they can't actually die, they just felt like taking a nap) and kick all the daemons and Chaos Gods out of the galaxy, where they get eaten by Tyranids/the Reapers from Mass Effect. Then they flew around space with their Superman flight (they all have wings like Sanguinius but they're invisible) and use SCIENCE to resurrect the humans and Necrontyr and Eldar and C'tan and Orks, except they're all friends now. In the bright light of the 42nd Millennium, there is only peace and love and the awkward life of Ferrus Manus, who is still just a head (but alive, because he doesn't require organs to function).

i like how people are trying to question what my motives are....lol

"he's sexist cause he always pits woman against men, primarchs".... no im not.... i have always said no one man and woman could take on a primarch unless with a special weapon/chaos amped or a very special curcumstance


in fact...i can say the same argument that some of you are to PC (politically correct) that its hard for you to admit that a man could beat a woman, in this case a primarch could beat a woman/battle sister.... so you wont admit it on the internet and try to come up with insane circumstances......... why it isn't true


Automatically Appended Next Post:
and now da001 is saying a human could beat a primarch... i mean come on,... its such a freaking politically correct stance to take.....

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.

A. The Emperor had no knowledge of the assassination attempt.
B. Malcador and the High Lords did not create the Primarchs.
C. (This is the important one) They... Oh, that's right, they failed.

Malcador is wrong about a lot of things. For example: He wishes he could have saved Lorgar, viewing him as the most innocent of those who threw their lot in with Chaos. Oh, how wrong he was.

Hey I nearly missed that post.

A: The Emperor sent the assassins against Curze... or so it is said. And the Emperor and Horus didn´t sent assassins against each other because both of them thought it was dishonorable. I know how it sounds, it is impossible to talk about Primarchs and not stumbling against something that sounds odd. But it is the way it is written.
B: Look, LightKing, could you please stop.... Wait, you are not LightKing. Where did I say that Malcador and the High Lords created the Primarchs? Is my evil twin using my Dakka account again? Wait, this doesn´t make sense, I am the evil twin. Anyway, Malcador gave the information at his disposal to the Officio in order to kill Horus. How much information is that? I don´t know. But I think it is a lot of information, it is Malcador we are talking about.
C: Hey, Curze is dead. And the team sent against Horus, while being consistenty depicted as morons, failed only because Horus somehow knew of the assassination attempt and sent a decoy.

If you think about it, Lorgar could be saved with a little more diplomacy on the Emperor´s part. Anyway, I always thought the Emperor knew what was coming, and he treated Lorgar (and Angron, and Perturabo, and Magnus...) more or less to get what he got. My opinion, though.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
(...)
They didn't fail because they tried to attack a Primarch and said Primarch was impervious to their blades/bullets/etc; they failed because of a hilariously silly series of events, such as two of them essentially getting bored and leaving the mission, many of them getting killed by a Daemon, and the survivor displaying Ork levels of intelligence and spacing himself to try and get a shot at Horus. This didn't fail because the bullet bounced off Horus' invincible Primarchy head, but because the Vindicaire in question was an idiot who spaced himself.

^This. It is not a good book.

(...)
It also raises the question; why do they all wear armour, then? Master-crafted Terminator armour it seems like, except for Angron who refuses to do it because he's a badass (and therefore only has a 4+ save, I believe). Furthermore, if they really are made from invincibilium, how come they weren't left naked after being shot by space lasers or Titans?

Good point.

Meanwhile, here's what my sister has to say about this thread after I showed her the bit with the Canoness dropping a Titan on a grot.

Stop feeding your sister with that nonsense!! Sister Macarena was not a Canoness when she dropped the Titan on the grot. She was 18!

What my sister has to say about this thread (AIM) wrote:
40K IS BERY SRS
no fun allowed
stop that fun
right now
don't laugh
this is tiny models we're talking about
pretty much religion
also
can I point out
that thread title
we don't know the difference between 'than' and 'then', apparently
so basically it says
so a Canoness is strong, then! A primarch!
she was just stronger by herself
and then there was also a Primarch
in an unrelated incident

Did your sister sent you this through an Astropath? The style is similar.

Anyway, that´s a good catch. I would never have spotted without her help that the title had a hidden message.
"So a Canoness is stronger
THEN (suddenly) a wild Primarch!"
Another enigma to resolve. Whay was the Primarch there? To find out why the Canoness is stronger, obviouly. But, how did he know?!??

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I think that Sister = Primarch in a BATTLE. As in, give both equipment, (including guns), GO!

I think a Primarch would probably beat a sister to a pulp in hand-to-hand...
....which is exactly why guns were invented.

This thread is like saying "MY FRIEND SAID PEOPLE WERE EQUAL TO LIONS!"
"Well, we do use GUNS. And have civilization."
"YEAH but a LION could pulp us in Close Combat!"
"Well, that's a given, but seriously, check your temperature - you're overheating."

Surely you jest. A battle sister, in no circumstances is equal to a primarch. A battle sister would be ripped in thirds by a naked primarch before she could pull the trigger. Even if the primarch was hit, he might get slightly singed.

cause your trying to be so politically correct da001...saying a human is more powerful then a primarch....i notice that many fiction fans argue in political correct terms, and view various fictions through a PC or "progressive lens"

because the primarchs are male, and the battle sisters are female...to say the primarchs could beat them (even because they could) but since the primarchs are men, it doesn't seem right......


you want evidence of my theory= Frozen Ocean

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
You know, it's possible that the stories of primarchs not being killed by huge weapons are just tall tales based on things they actually did. Like, the story of Lorgar surviving a plasma blast was actually just an incident where he was in the vicinity of a huge plasma blast, managed to live by some miracle and his "sons" aggrandized the tale to make him look better. Guilliman may have just been spaced as a breach was opened up in his ship and managed to live despite the length of time spent in vacuum. People tend to stretch the facts as stories are told and retold.

Personally, I think a Conscript could kill a Primarch if he got a good hit off with a Plasma Cannon. It's just that the Primarchs are so good at what they do that it would never happen to them with a little bit of luck.

Either that or the Primarchs really are that tough and this setting is even more shallow than I thought.

Why would that make it shallow?

Some of the best stories ever told (The classic and Norse mythologies of old, All Star Superman, etc.) involve super powerful characters doing super powerful things.

Shallow=/=Unentertaining. The Halo series is very shallow as far as SciFi shooty-blammy fests go but it's one of my favorite stories. The Primarchs being able to resist Plasma blasts makes 40k more shallow because it's basically saying, "Oh, here is a bunch of powerful weaponry. Well, guess what? Here are even more powerfuller people who make a mockery of those powerful weapons. And there are even more powerful people than them!". It's lame story writing and it's one of the things I dislike about the franchise (Particularly Necrons).

To each their own, I suppose, but I really don't like heroes that can't be killed by any average joe. There's barely any suspense until you introduce powerfuller characters and then it goes downhill from there as you keep introducing more and more powerfuller characters. Dragonball Z pulled it off okay, admittedly, but DBZ isn't a war drama.

Why did the Primarchs need to be uberpowerful , anyway? It seems like it would only be a liability in case they went rogue because you couldn't put them down without wasting more resources then they were worth.

So .... a Primarch has Eternal Warrior and how many wounds? .... The 1 shot melta gun loses

 da001 wrote:


Anyway, that´s a good catch. I would never have spotted without her help that the title had a hidden message.
"So a Canoness is stronger
THEN (suddenly) a wild Primarch!"
Another enigma to resolve. Whay was the Primarch there? To find out why the Canoness is stronger, obviouly. But, how did he know?!??

The canoness was obviously walking through unusually tall grass at the time. She now has to reduce the primarch to roughly 10% health, and throw a tessaract labyrinth at him.

And a guardsman has a ~17% chance of surviving being shot at by... pretty much anything unharmed. The tabletop game isn't meant to portray completely accurately the reality of the 40k universe.

does anyone think Frozen Ocean says these things, because he hates the primarchs because they are all male...... but if they were all female, he would be singing a different tone

its hard for him to accept that the primarchs could beat the battle sisters cause it goes against his PC ideology

 ThePrimordial wrote:
Vulkan surviving being hit by a 1000 ton shell going a fraction of the speed of light (that's what a macro cannon is) and being mostly intact?
Jesus Christ that's a little absurd even for me. That's something that would feth up Post Crisis Superman.

Pssshh.

Superman was knocked briefly unconscious by a supernova. A macro cannon would probably just rip through his bioelectric aura and mess up his suit a bit while knocking him backwards. He'd be up and running a few seconds later.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

Wyzilla wrote:
And you're forgetting the myriad of warp-infused Astartes that creates strange creatures like Obliterators and Mutilators. And the Primarchs are literal demigods and not humans in the least.

Obliterators and Mutilators are guys wearing Terminator Armour who can make their arms turn into weapons (because of the Warp). I don't see why this has any bearing on whether or not non-Chaotic Primarchs can survive melta shots to the face. Also, maybe they aren't humans, but what possible material are they made of? That's what I'm getting at! Their humanity has nothing to do with it.

Void__Dragon wrote:

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
The thing is, though, that Primarchs are still made from matter. Organic matter, no less. They may have adamantium-laced bone (even this is doubtful; did they eat regular doses of the stuff while growing up on their individual worlds?) or something, but anything as destructively powerful as even the smallest weapons on a Titan (or indeed, a meltagun) are going to kill them outright unless they have some form of psychic/daemon invulnerable save (Magnus), much less a starship weapon.

To be perfectly blunt, what you "think" has exactly no basis on what actually is.

If your personal canon of 40k doesn't have nigh-invulnerable Primarchs, that is fine, but do not deign to make absolutist statements on their durability when the only basis for it is what you would like to be the case.

And this doesn't also apply to you how, exactly? Everything anyone ever says is what they "think".

Void__Dragon wrote:
Vulkan surviving macron cannons (I forgot who responded to this, this thread and the other one are hard to keep track of replies, but Vulkan, although he is a perpetual, took the macron cannon without needing to regenerate, IIRC), Angron having a mountain dropped on his head, Lorgar actually surviving Titan weaponry (And it must be said he defeated An'ggrath in martial combat, who eats Titans for breakfast), etc. These happened.

Cast-iron proof, of course. Despite repeated mentions of how everything in 40k is meant to be taken with a pinch of salt?

Void__Dragon wrote:
So do you believe that M'Shen should have been able to kill Curze up-close and personal on her own merits?

Maybe, maybe not. Even if she couldn't, that doesn't mean that, as an assassin, she will engage him in close combat regardless just because she has a knife. Part of the skill of an assassin is overcoming obstacles; being unable to best him in close-combat doesn't mean she couldn't have caused his ship to explode or something.

Void__Dragon wrote:
She still managed to infiltrate inside without anyone but Curze himself noticing.

Your comments on the Eversor are entirely speculation, and also ignore that the Callidus' abilities are what allowed her to infiltrate. How would an Eversor manage it?

Because stealth and martial skill are entirely different, and she didn't best the Primarch by sneaking - she bested Space Marines. Which is really no big deal unless the Space Marines happen to also be the protagonists, which they weren't. An Eversor wouldn't have needed to sneak, and would have simply cut a swathe of death through anything that tried to stop him. Unless of course, again, the Space Marines were the protagonists - but they weren't.

 da001 wrote:

Now there I go with my opinion on humans vs Primarchs: I think it is obvious that the Emperor, Malcador and the High Lords of Terra think that a human assassin can take down a Primarch. Proof? They sent assassins to do that mission, and they are not fools. Remember "Nemesis"? A Vindicare, alone, is quite able to kill a Primarch, in the eyes of the people who created the Primarchs.

Void__Dragon wrote:
A. The Emperor had no knowledge of the assassination attempt.
B. Malcador and the High Lords did not create the Primarchs.
C. (This is the important one) They... Oh, that's right, they failed

They didn't fail because they tried to attack a Primarch and said Primarch was impervious to their blades/bullets/etc; they failed because of a hilariously silly series of events, such as two of them essentially getting bored and leaving the mission, many of them getting killed by a Daemon, and the survivor displaying Ork levels of intelligence and spacing himself to try and get a shot at Horus. This didn't fail because the bullet bounced off Horus' invincible Primarchy head, but because the Vindicaire in question was an idiot who spaced himself.

Anyway, back to your original point about why my opinion is just opinion but yours is fact; physics. Seriously, just physics. You might be a super-duper-genetic-amazing-science-man, but you're made of molecules and atoms. Not even adamantium - regarded as the toughest material known to the Imperium - can resist such attacks as what the Primarchs are supposedly capable of. So what are they made of? Melta-immune vehicle armour has to be constructed from very specific materials (thick ceramite and heat capacitors) to resist melta, much less Titan weapons; this means that the skin of a Primarch is stronger than an entire Terminator or better yet, a Land Raider or other AV14 vehicle. They're organisms; they're mostly made of water, which also applies to their brains. Somehow they have super-special-Omega-Ultra-body fluids that can't be evaporated, and cells made from thousands of Land Raiders shrunk down and spun into fibres, but somehow really lightweight.

It also raises the question; why do they all wear armour, then? Master-crafted Terminator armour it seems like, except for Angron who refuses to do it because he's a badass (and therefore only has a 4+ save, I believe). Furthermore, if they really are made from invincibilium, how come they weren't left naked after being shot by space lasers or Titans?

Meanwhile, here's what my sister has to say about this thread after I showed her the bit with the Canoness dropping a Titan on a grot:

What my sister has to say about this thread (AIM) wrote:
40K IS BERY SRS
no fun allowed
stop that fun
right now
don't laugh
this is tiny models we're talking about
pretty much religion
also
can I point out
that thread title
we don't know the difference between 'than' and 'then', apparently
so basically it says
so a Canoness is strong, then! A primarch!
she was just stronger by herself
and then there was also a Primarch
in an unrelated incident

LightKing wrote:
does anyone think Frozen Ocean says these things, because he hates the primarchs because they are all male...... but if they were all female, he would be singing a different tone

its hard for him to accept that the primarchs could beat the battle sisters cause it goes against his PC ideology

It is the opposite of PC to support one gender against another.

But yes, IMO a primarch could crush a sister as an afterthought.