Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

At what point should you stop using proxied weapons and wargear? I understand that this is often a great way to try new things and it's pretty commonly accepted, but at what point does it become less about new tactics and more about situational "I need this today"

I mean, if you want to do that and kit your squad out differently then that is cool, but shouldn't you be putting in the effort to magnetize? Or maybe have some variants, like extra Sarges and stuff?


Also what about counts-as models? Is this like the above "try new tactics" thing or just being cheap? I have a Rhino with a homemade lascan turret that I can put on it if I want and it looks pretty awesome, I think so anyways, but how would you feel about playing against it? What about a Rhino counts as Whirlwind? They all use the Rhino chassis, so as long as you put real effort into it I don't see why not.

Well just saying a Rhino 'counts as' a Whirlwind is proxying. And if you had other Rhinos in your army it could be a bit of a problem (I mean I'd still play against it, but I may need reminding of what is what). Actual counts-as is more for something that is so heavily converted that it looks nothing like the original model, but can still be seen to serve the same battlefield purpose as the original. So using a Manticore weapon system on a Rhino chassis, with some other conversion work done, and saying 'this counts-as a Whirlwind' is more the meaning of that phrase. At least that is my understanding.

When one model serves a model of a completely different profile is where I draw the proverbial line

 TheCustomLime wrote:
When one model serves a model of a completely different profile is where I draw the proverbial line

Aw, but I love using my Helbrutes as counts-as Wraithknights!

 motyak wrote:
Well just saying a Rhino 'counts as' a Whirlwind is proxying. And if you had other Rhinos in your army it could be a bit of a problem (I mean I'd still play against it, but I may need reminding of what is what). Actual counts-as is more for something that is so heavily converted that it looks nothing like the original model, but can still be seen to serve the same battlefield purpose as the original. So using a Manticore weapon system on a Rhino chassis, with some other conversion work done, and saying 'this counts-as a Whirlwind' is more the meaning of that phrase. At least that is my understanding.

Yeah thats what I said, I thought, you would actually need to make the rhino look like a Whirlwind. Which ya know, ebay a few bits and you will actually have a whirlwind, since the box the turret sits on is exactly the same.

I was thinking of making modular weapons systems for things like Whirlwinds, Razorbacks, Preds, and probably even the Stalkerhunter too. Since they are all Rhino chassis, why pay extra for the rhino part? I'd much rather buy 4 Rhinos, grab some bits off ebay and have 4 tanks of my choosing, depending on what I want that evening.

More to the original point though, if you want modular weapons, on anything, shouldn't you be putting in the work to do it properly, even in a friendly game?

Isn't proxy something that you do to learn how things work without dropping tons of cash or rebuilding minis?

You stop after you have trialed the unit/wargear and then you spend some money like everyone else.

If it's a true proxy (bears no resemblance to what it's representing) then you should stop habitually doing it once you've ascertained the tactical validity of its use.

If it's a homemade version of something, a scratchbuild, or a third party substitution, then it's fine- rock on with your bad self.

F'rex: using Space Marine scouts to represent Kroot while you decide if you want to buy a box of Kroot for your Tau army is fine. Once you've decided to include Kroot on a regular basis, you need to actually get some. Or a reasonable third party facsimile.

The homemade lascannon turret you describe is totally kosher.

When you have made the decision to either get the real unit, or to abandon it.

I use proxies in games a lot - its usually precursor to getting a real model - to see how well it works in my lists or to my playing style.

As I try to make sure my proxies match the shape and size of the models they represent, my friends are very accepting of this.

Depending on the cost of effort of buying/making the model, and how well it performs, will determine how many tests I may want to do.

For example, my tau orca proxy just completed its third game today, and overall while not stellar, it has done well enough that I am prolly going to make one.

Where as the ion-cannon tau tigershark....sadly, even that card board proxy, will never see the table top again.

 Extreaminatus wrote:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
When one model serves a model of a completely different profile is where I draw the proverbial line

Aw, but I love using my Helbrutes as counts-as Wraithknights!

I like my grot-revenants.

Well, proxying is kinda difficult to not do for my friends and I in Australia, with the stupid prices.

Like i play space wolves. Grey hunters are grey hunters. I have a plasma gun in the squad and a banner. But if i change the plasma to a flamer, i just say 'this plasma is a flamer', easy.

But what makes it really hard, and something I wont do is the wolf guard. Considering that they can have almost every weapon in the game, in both power armour and terminator armour, jump packs or bikes, i could never imagine spending THAT much to make it worth while.

Probably why i dont play in tournaments. WYSIWYG is a stupid rule imo. Sure, if the model has to be the right model, i get that. But having the exact weapon loadout modelled... nah, not happening (though, i use the same weapons throughout the entire squad to make it easy for myself and my opponents to understand what im doing.

I must say I don't much like the idea of playing against a cardboard box proxy even once. This is a miniature hobby with a game attached to it pretty much.

Not that I remember anyone proxying anything in a long time.

 Jubear wrote:
You stop after you have trialed the unit/wargear and then you spend some money like everyone else.

Yep.

 Rautakanki wrote:
I must say I don't much like the idea of playing against a cardboard box proxy even once. This is a miniature hobby with a game attached to it pretty much.

Not that I remember anyone proxying anything in a long time.

This. I have loved building miniature models ever since I was a really small kid, and thus 40k is mainly about the hobby side for me. The game is just a funny extra.
Therefore I tend to be very unforgiving towards proxies. Only one time for trying out, maybe a few more times if it is a really expansive model or if you are low on cash.

Same as most in the thread, I'll let a proxxy pass in a playtest of a new build or something of the sorts. Hell I've done it before as well but always make sure the person I am playing is okay with it.

Where things start to get iffy for me is conversions, I'm 100% okay with conversions as long as they are well done or at least fit the army well. But don't expect me to not at least give you some grief if you slap down a Gundam model as a counts as forgeworld piece etc. I might let it pass under playtest, but at some point either get the model or do a conversion with a current model into something that would better resemble it.

I do conversions all the time, but I tend to follow the rule of keeping it at least along the lines of reason and GW model line I can for my orks. Good example is a 'Ard Boy squad I've been slowly working on for awhile(Never field them so no rush to complete, just a fun project.) They are going to be run as Slugga 'Ard Boys and I've been modeling riot shields on to them to give them a slightly more armored look to them complete with helmets etc.

I tend to draw the line on 3rd party models unless it is for something simply like horde conscripts, cultists etc. Something where you don't really have to model upgrades on them since they usually are run as a basic loadout, I'll usually be wary of Tacticals, Dreadnaught etc proxy. Since the upgrades are way easier to confuse and "forget"

Never.

Proxy is %100 cool. Always.

It depends entirely on the people you play with. Nothing more and nothing less.

My group has no issue with proxying. We can and do proxy whenever we like, as often as we like. We enjoy how we play and are fine with it. Having said that, we all have probably 90%+ wysiwyg official GW models on the table the vast majority of the time.

I've met other players that won't play proxies at all. That's fine too, that's the game they want and that's cool.

Speak to your group, see what the consensus is, and play to those guidelines.

Well personally I use a Chaos'd up Basilisk as a Vindicator and no one's ever raised a fuss about it. I think proxying is fine as long as you do it in a way that isn't smarmy and don't just turn up with two soap boxes that say "This is a Maulerfiend" and "This is also a Maulerfiend" on the side of them in texta.

Proxies are totally fine... The neckbeards need to chill out with their elitism and not force their ways on others. At the end of the day, it's a fething game. Relax you cheeto stained basement dwelling nerds!

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Proxies are totally fine... The neckbeards need to chill out with their elitism and not force their ways on others. At the end of the day, it's a fething game. Relax you cheeto stained basement dwelling nerds!

It's not a JUST a game; it's a hobby. Part of the hobby includes the pleasure of playing against painted models. For me (at least) part of the pleasure is watching a group of unpainted models evolve into a painted force- both my own and my opponents. Making an effort to get your models painted up (over time- weeks, months, years) is a sign of respect to the other players.

Also- ad hominem attacks and hasty generalizations are the signs of a poorly thought out argument. You could have easily made this point without childish name-calling.

 3orangewhips wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Proxies are totally fine... The neckbeards need to chill out with their elitism and not force their ways on others. At the end of the day, it's a fething game. Relax you cheeto stained basement dwelling nerds!

It's not a JUST a game; it's a hobby. Part of the hobby includes the pleasure of playing against painted models. For me (at least) part of the pleasure is watching a group of unpainted models evolve into a painted force- both my own and my opponents. Making an effort to get your models painted up (over time- weeks, months, years) is a sign of respect to the other players.

Also- ad hominem attacks and hasty generalizations are the signs of a poorly thought out argument. You could have easily made this point without childish name-calling.

The only people that see painting your army as a sign of "respect" for them are precisely the people I was referring to... Very heavy people who live with their parents and are foreign to female contact...

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Proxies are totally fine... The neckbeards need to chill out with their elitism and not force their ways on others. At the end of the day, it's a fething game. Relax you cheeto stained basement dwelling nerds!

It's not a JUST a game; it's a hobby. Part of the hobby includes the pleasure of playing against painted models. For me (at least) part of the pleasure is watching a group of unpainted models evolve into a painted force- both my own and my opponents. Making an effort to get your models painted up (over time- weeks, months, years) is a sign of respect to the other players.

Also- ad hominem attacks and hasty generalizations are the signs of a poorly thought out argument. You could have easily made this point without childish name-calling.

The only people that see painting your army as a sign of "respect" for them are precisely the people I was referring to... Very heavy people who live with their parents and are foreign to female contact...

Welcome to my Ignore list. Mate, you seem to be having issues accepting that some people prefer modeling/painting over playing, and like to see two painted armies battling it out. Basically, why should I play against your grey horde if I do not enjoy playing grey horde? Why should your enjoyment of playing a game be more important than mine of playing a fully painted game?

P.S. The ladies love a well-painted army. having some point of artistic passion does not hurt said interactions. Being an anti-social berk, however, does.

 Crazy_Carnifex wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

 3orangewhips wrote:

Dalymiddleboro wrote:
Proxies are totally fine... The neckbeards need to chill out with their elitism and not force their ways on others. At the end of the day, it's a fething game. Relax you cheeto stained basement dwelling nerds!

It's not a JUST a game; it's a hobby. Part of the hobby includes the pleasure of playing against painted models. For me (at least) part of the pleasure is watching a group of unpainted models evolve into a painted force- both my own and my opponents. Making an effort to get your models painted up (over time- weeks, months, years) is a sign of respect to the other players.

Also- ad hominem attacks and hasty generalizations are the signs of a poorly thought out argument. You could have easily made this point without childish name-calling.

The only people that see painting your army as a sign of "respect" for them are precisely the people I was referring to... Very heavy people who live with their parents and are foreign to female contact...

Welcome to my Ignore list. Mate, you seem to be having issues accepting that some people prefer modeling/painting over playing, and like to see two painted armies battling it out. Basically, why should I play against your grey horde if I do not enjoy playing grey horde? Why should your enjoyment of playing a game be more important than mine of playing a fully painted game?

P.S. The ladies love a well-painted army. having some point of artistic passion does not hurt said interactions. Being an anti-social berk, however, does.

My army is painted. I noticed this while gaming at a store. Also, an FYI the only ladies that give a damn whether or not an army is painted or unpainted probably have a mustache. My experience, chicks don't give two gaks about 40k...

Also, being on your ignore list affects me in absolutely zero ways. I don't know who you are, and the fact that you're butthurt about my comments makes me happy you ignored me. Chances are I wouldn't want to talk much with you anyway.

When you start playing the same list over and over again. Nothing worse than that rhino being a razorback or some other similar chassis vehicle. I have no problem with a proxy when you just want to playtest something and see how it performs in a list, however, once you decide you want particular item in your standard list, then, go purchase.

Dalymiddleboro wrote:

The only people that see painting your army as a sign of "respect" for them are precisely the people I was referring to... Very heavy people who live with their parents and are foreign to female contact...

In my gaming group, most of us are happily married. There's one regular player who is single and lives in his Aunt's basement. Of the same group, there is only one guy who constantly proxies models, and refuses to paint anything. Would you believe that the guy living alone in his aunt's basement is the same guy who proxies all the time? The people who are able to accept social cues and thusly do things like buy and paint their armies are the same people who recognize social cues that allow them to meet and date women. The people who bury their heads in the sand insisting that proxying is just fine are the same people who bury their heads in the sand about showering and dieting.

Reasonable proxies don't bother me as long as I know before hand what it is. The extent we have gone is infantry units and war gear.

I provide my opponent a written list saying what is what and the proxy unit is described in the list. (They guy with the painted shoulder has a plasma rifle, but it counts as a flamer)

Least amount of ambiguity possible if I am proxying .

 Havok210 wrote:
Reasonable proxies don't bother me as long as I know before hand what it is. The extent we have gone is infantry units and war gear.

I provide my opponent a written list saying what is what and the proxy unit is described in the list. (They guy with the painted shoulder has a plasma rifle, but it counts as a flamer)

Least amount of ambiguity possible if I am proxying .

You're from youngstown? The hooooood! I went to YSU back in the day!

 ImotekhTheStormlord wrote:

I like my grot-revenants.

I prefer grot Warlords personally... Especially when I'm running my Creed list, it really helps to outflank your Warlord when you're proxying it with a grot

LOL, the day someone says somethign to me about having the wrong weapons on my models is the day that I'll accidentally knock a ton of his models off the table.

I stopped after I proxied my Eldar army as Tau, and my Tau army as Eldar allies.

It was not well received.

vortexdr wrote:
LOL, the day someone says somethign to me about having the wrong weapons on my models is the day that I'll accidentally knock a ton of his models off the table.

Yeah, that's a great idea. Really the only option in that situation. Good call!