Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I just have a quick question. Why is the Quad gun for ADL or Bastion so much more popular than its Lascannon cousin? Lascannon certainly doesn't sound TOO shabby to me... especially when operated by someone with high BS.

Mathammer says its faster to strip hull points off with str 7 than it is to hit, penetrate and get a good roll with 1 shot at str 9.

untill that mathhammer meets my RAIDERHAMMER! BOOM. but yeah. this is especially true for eldar Wave serps.

The Lascannon might see more popularity now that more IWND vehicles are showing up. I know I'd rather try to one shot a Heldrake instead of strip its hull points. The quad gun can shoot at that thing all day and probably not do much.

The quad gun is also more useful once any fliers are gone. 4 shots at light armor or even small units is much more useful than a single lascannon shot.

I was thinking of getting the lascannon over quad for my Chaos Lascannon Havocs. I figured that BS 4 on the champ for 5 Lascannons would kill something per turn.

The lascannon doesn`t come with the aegis kit. I think it only comes with the bastion, so it`s a hassle.

Now there are better fortifications available, so I`ve moved away from the Aegis, but I would take the lascannon over the quad every time. It is much more valuable to knock something out of the sky once in a while before it can do something than to knock off a hullpoint or two somewhat reliably.

Against AV12 flyers, especially the drake, the quad is very meh.

The Icarus Lascannon also has much longer range, making it's interceptor more valuable in theory.

The quad gun is more effective against monstrous creatures and horde flyers like gargoyles.
In the hands of an average bs gunner, it is also more effective at stripping hull points from the weaker armored flyers.

Personally, I found that by putting a model with a higher BS on it, such as a commissar lord, I am far more effective at destroying flyers but the quad gun is still more effective at killing monstrous creatures and horde flyers.
I also like the range of the Icarus over the much shorter range of the quad gun (a savvy opponent can measure the distance to ensure their incoming flyers are out of range of a quad gun even if you center it in your line in most cases).
So generally, I stthe quad gun in tournaments as it 'covers more bases".

They serve different functions. Quad gun is great for taking out Av10-11 fliers, grounding flying MC's, and dakka. Since it is twin linked with high volume, it can be manned by units with poor BS. Anything higher than Bs5 is a bit of a waste on it.

Lascannon is slightly cheaper, but comes with a single shot so you want Bs4 or better shooting it. Good for Av12 fliers that otherwise laugh a 1-2 missing hull points(helldrakes, iron hands stormravens)

I thought you took quad gun for fmc's and laz for fliers with av?

For the most part, yes. it is good to remember that with intercepter, they also shoot at ground units as well at full BS. this means that they can also pop rhinos and truck and in the case of the las cannon, even land raiders and monoliths. Again, this is also where the range can come in handy. For example, the enemy manticore peeking it's head around a corner or sitting behind an ADL along the back edge of the board out of range of your normal las cannons can be popped with a decent shot and failed cover save.
As someone else confirmed, a lower BS guy on the quad gun isn't too bad but you want a higher BS gunner on the las cannon.

 Gitsmasher wrote:
I thought you took quad gun for fmc's and laz for fliers with av?

Quad is better then Las against Av12 and lower

i would say against 12 or better, the las is better because with the quad you can usually expect 3 of the 4 to hit and even if all 4 hit, you need a 5 to even glance so even if you hit with all 4, only one of those 4 is likely to even glance much less pen and with no damage modifiers, flyers can almost totally ignore it if it has armor 12.
I would put the dividing line at 11 and call that generous.

What make the quad a better overall weapon (except for it's much shorter range) is it's being a jack of all trades and not having the need to put a high BS model to fire it.

 EVIL INC wrote:
i would say against 12 or better, the las is better because with the quad you can usually expect 3 of the 4 to hit and even if all 4 hit, you need a 5 to even glance so even if you hit with all 4, only one of those 4 is likely to even glance much less pen and with no damage modifiers, flyers can almost totally ignore it if it has armor 12.
I would put the dividing line at 11 and call that generous.

What make the quad a better overall weapon (except for it's much shorter range) is it's being a jack of all trades and not having the need to put a high BS model to fire it.

Or you could just do the math on it

with BS4 against Av12
Quad 4*(8/9)*(1/3)=1.185 Damage (0.593 Pens, 0.593 Glances)
Las 1*(2/3)*(2/3)=0.444 Damage (0.333 Pens, 0.111 Glances)

See? Quad gun is better then Las against av12. Even with ap2, the quad makes up for it with having 4 shots allowing for a higher damage potential. In fact technically the quad is more likely to do damage against Av13 as well but its very marginal and is only glances so is not really the case in practice

Not if you are looking to take it out on the turn it comes in before it can fire.
Do the math

- 3 hits with the quad gun on average. les if your unlucky, 4 if your lucky. of those 3 a single one will glance if you are lucky. OR a single one will pen if you are VERY lucky. If you are VERY lucky and get a single pen, you do not get anymodifiers to the damage table which means that nless you are SUPER lucky, it will still be alive and well with only a single hull point gone at most.
No consider range, it is really not hard to end the moement phase out of range of the quad gun so lets do the math there. 0 shots means 0 hits and 0 hull points gone.

- las cannon, bs5 only misses on a roll of a one. so you can count on it hitting. only needs a 3 to glance and a 4 to pen at MOST if your shooting at a heavy duty flyer with av 12. so if your very unlucky, your no worse of than with the quad gun. if your average, you will pen and get a +1 to damage so you are more likely to pen and do more damage when you do pen.
lets look at the range now, since the range is the entire table, range is not an issue.

As stated earlier and proven, the las is better for vehicles (unless your shooting at av 10, maybe 11 to be generous), while the jack of all trades quad gun stands out more in a tournament setting as it will be more usefull against more opponant types.

The only flier the quad gun struggles against is the hell turkey. Even the "mighty" Stormraven gets ground up pretty quickly against S7 ROF 4. Obviously, you'll need more than source of S7 to down it one turn, but it's very feasible to HP out a raven. The hellturkey, not so much.

Now THAT is true. I was comparing the quad and las only against each other and in terms of purely the damage THEY do against enemy flyers on the turn they come in. Working in conjunction with the rest of the army, the jack of all trades quad usually works better in a take all comers (or tourney) list.

I used to game totally against helldrakes, but now the quad gun gives me utility in spamming MCs, etc. Too many bases to cover with too few meqs :(

Where iz all dose bs5 comin' from, boyz?! Grots with a quadd gun ftw

koooaei wrote:
Where iz all dose bs5 comin' from, boyz?! Grots with a quadd gun ftw

The ADL makes for a solid center base to fight out . I pop Harkers squad behind it with a las cannon (maybe a few flamers) and camo. A 2= cover save without having to go to ground is really handy. Attach a comissar lord to that sponge unit to man the gun and you have a unit that is really hard t kill (under most circumstances but there are ways around it) and you have a bs5 gunner that is fairly safe from harm and gives his leadership bonus to the main body of your army.

EVIL INC wrote:Do the math

He did.

CrownAxe wrote:with BS4 against Av12
Quad 4*(8/9)*(1/3)=1.185 Damage (0.593 Pens, 0.593 Glances)
Las 1*(2/3)*(2/3)=0.444 Damage (0.333 Pens, 0.111 Glances)

As stated earlier and proven, the las is better for vehicles (unless your shooting at av 10, maybe 11 to be generous), while the jack of all trades quad gun stands out more in a tournament setting as it will be more usefull against more opponant types.

Actual math disagrees. You will average more Pens and Glances against AV12 with a BS4 quad gun than you will with a BS4 Lascannon.
If you continue to disagree, please prove the math wrong and don't just say "Nuh uh, it's THIS way."

Try playing a few games with both of them. You will see that the Las cannon pops armor much faster than the autocannon. Exactly what does the autocannon need to roll to pop a land raider/ Whats the math on that? xactly whatdoes the autocannon need to roll to pop a flyer that is out of range?
The simple fact is, the Las cannon fares better at popping a vehicle than the autocannon.
of course, simple facts and math shows that in tournamant play (or in a take all comers list), the autocannon is more effective overall as it is a jack of all trades that covers other bases that the las cannon doesnt.

 EVIL INC wrote:
TExactly what does the autocannon need to roll to pop a land raider/ Whats the math on that?

When the discussion was AV 12, what relevance does a Land Raider have?

xactly whatdoes the autocannon need to roll to pop a flyer that is out of range?

With a centrally placed quad gun it's very difficult to stay out of range and still be effective. I won't say impossible but I've literally never seen it done.

The simple fact is, the Las cannon fares better at popping a vehicle than the autocannon.

It's really not, unless you're talking about AV13 and 14. In which case - who cares? That's what you have anti-tank weapons for. The ADL gun shouldn't be what you're relying on for Anti-tank.

Bs 3 autocannon, will hit 3 times on average, less if unlucky, 4 if lucky.
it needs a 5 to so much as glance. if you are super lucky, you will roll a six. As you need a natural six, we will discount that. So on average, you will take out one HP if your lucky, 2 if you are REALLY lucky. Ths means the flyers still gets to do it's thing the turn it comes in
A bs 5 las cannon, Hits. Needs a 3 to glance and a 4 to pen. So on average, it will pen, if your unlucky, you will glance, if your really unlucky, you will miss and be as well off as the autocannon. however, on average, it will pen and destroy a weapon, immobilize (locked velocity) or destroy it. Blown up being more likely than any one of the other damages.
Simple math supports this.

However, Theautocannon is better at taking out foot sloggrs, light flying units such as gargoyles and monstrous creatures, grounding flying monstrous creatures. So Math supports them as being the better overall choice in a take all comers or tournament list.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Bs 3 autocannon, will hit 3 times on average, less if unlucky, 4 if lucky.
it needs a 5 to so much as glance. if you are super lucky, you will roll a six. As you need a natural six, we will discount that. So on average, you will take out one HP if your lucky, 2 if you are REALLY lucky. Ths means the flyers still gets to do it's thing the turn it comes in
A bs 5 las cannon, Hits. Needs a 3 to glance and a 4 to pen. So on average, it will pen, if your unlucky, you will glance, if your really unlucky, you will miss and be as well off as the autocannon. however, on average, it will pen and destroy a weapon, immobilize (locked velocity) or destroy it. Blown up being more likely than any one of the other damages.
Simple math supports this.

However, Theautocannon is better at taking out foot sloggrs, light flying units such as gargoyles and monstrous creatures, grounding flying monstrous creatures. So Math supports them as being the better overall choice in a take all comers or tournament list.

Okay so there is so much wrong with this post. First why are you comparing BS3 to BS5? Second the math has been done before

CrownAxe wrote:
with BS4 against Av12
Quad 4*(8/9)*(1/3)=1.185 Damage (0.593 Pens, 0.593 Glances)
Las 1*(2/3)*(2/3)=0.444 Damage (0.333 Pens, 0.111 Glances)

That is the math for both weapons at BS4. The quad gun by virture of more shots gets more glances and pens than the one shot lascannon. You must remember that 40k is a game played for the averages. Yes on a case by case basis the lascannon is superior because the chance to get an explodes! result is better. However the better option is to take the weapon that has better average performace. Use the law of averages to your advantage. So in conclusion it is better to take the quad gun as you get more hits, glances, and pens on average than the lascannon.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Bs 3 autocannon, will hit 3 times on average, less if unlucky, 4 if lucky.
it needs a 5 to so much as glance. if you are super lucky, you will roll a six. As you need a natural six, we will discount that. So on average, you will take out one HP if your lucky, 2 if you are REALLY lucky. Ths means the flyers still gets to do it's thing the turn it comes in
A bs 5 las cannon, Hits. Needs a 3 to glance and a 4 to pen. So on average, it will pen, if your unlucky, you will glance, if your really unlucky, you will miss and be as well off as the autocannon. however, on average, it will pen and destroy a weapon, immobilize (locked velocity) or destroy it. Blown up being more likely than any one of the other damages.
Simple math supports this.

You're comparing BS3 to BS5. Hardly an apples to apples comparison. So you have nothing to disprove the math posted above?

We can do ths dance till the cows come home. I'm perfectly willing to do so. i've never been afraid of internet bullies.
bs3 and bs4 are pretty much the same thing in terms of twin linked. the difference is so minute that the end results are the same. Change my bs3 to bs4 in the above post and you get the same result. 3 hits on average, 4 if your lucky. can you cite the reference where a shot fired from a bs4 has a higher armor penetratio or damage result than a bs3? You have aso not disproved the math (you cant)
I CAN provide a citation of where an ap2 weapon has a higher damage result than an ap4 weapon.

 EVIL INC wrote:
bs3 and bs4 are pretty much the same thing in terms of twin linked. the difference is so minute that the end results are the same. Change my bs3 to bs4 in the above post and you get the same result. 3 hits on average, 4 if your lucky.

BS3 twin linked is a 75% chance to hit.
BS4 twin linked is a 88% chance to hit.
That's more than a "minute" chance.

can you cite the reference where a shot fired from a bs4 has a higher armor penetratio or damage result than a bs3?

Yes.
BS3 Str6 weapon against AV10. 1*.5*.5=25% chance to at least glance.
Bs4 Str6 weapon against AV10. 1*.6*.5=30% chance to at least glance.

You have aso not disproved the math (you cant)

You're making irrelevant comparisons and presenting them as proof. When you compare like to like (same BS value) your comparisons will be relevant.
You also haven't actually shown any math (unless I missed a post).

I CAN provide a citation of where an ap2 weapon has a higher damage result than an ap4 weapon.

Another irrelevant example. No one has said it doesn't. It just has a lower chance of actually applying that damage result.

Yes,, you are STILL hitting an average of 3 shots with the quad gun with a BS4.

You lied. Show me the exact page number where it says that a hit from a bs4 is more likely to pen armor than a hit from a bs3. Both shots are hits, what about the bs4 makes that hit more likely to pen the armor. does it add to the strength of the weapon or just give it a + something on armor pen rolls. You have not provided citation for your claim.
likewise, for damage results. What exactly about a bs4 gives a higher damage result on penned armor than a bs3 on pened armor. is there some sort of extra chart that I dont have in my rulebook that gives this? i can give the page number that gives the citation for higher AP weapons getting a + on damage results. Page 74 of the rulebook.

Sorry, the math just supports the las as being better at taking out an av12 flying vehicles before it can fire on the turn it enters play. Especially when it's movement is ended out of range of the quad gun (very easy to do and maintain full effectiveness)
likewise, math supports the autocannon as being the more well rounded jack ofall trades weapon for take all comers lists.

Honestly, I think most people significantly overestimate the importance of low AP weaponry in tank hunting. Most vehicles are 3 hull points. If you're rolling on the damage table, you've already taken off one of them. And if you're shooting at a target that's already taken damage, it may well have lost additional hull points already.

Penetrating hits are worth more than glances, and AP affects that conversion ratio, but this effect is pretty subtle at the end of the day.

 EVIL INC wrote:
Yes,, you are STILL hitting an average of 3 shots with the quad gun with a BS4.

You lied. Show me the exact page number where it says that a hit from a bs4 is more likely to pen armor than a hit from a bs3. Both shots are hits, what about the bs4 makes that hit more likely to pen the armor. does it add to the strength of the weapon or just give it a + something on armor pen rolls. You have not provided citation for your claim.
likewise, for damage results. What exactly about a bs4 gives a higher damage result on penned armor than a bs3 on pened armor. is there some sort of extra chart that I dont have in my rulebook that gives this? i can give the page number that gives the citation for higher AP weapons getting a + on damage results. Page 74 of the rulebook.

I probably shouldn't be responding to a troll, but here's the point you're missing: "you are STILL hitting an average of 3 shots with the quad gun with a BS4..." ...but the lascannon doesn't even get one.

Each autocannon gets a 1/6 chance to penetrate. 3 hits means 3 rolls. 3 chances at 1/6 chance each will average 0.5 penetrating results. Your lascannon will average less than one hit per shot. I don't even care how much less. You could have BS10 and it'd still be less. If that lascannon hits, half its rolls will penetrate, also making for 0.5 penetrates per hit. But since you don't hit 100% of the time, you can't match the autocannon.

Firing more shots can give better results than using higher strength. 10 lasguns will do more to a marine than 1 bolter. This is no different.