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I think kill team may have just done the unimaginable and made rough riders good! But let's not use just any old rough riders, let's take DKoK death riders! They have some obvious advantages:

1) They're cavalry, which means a 12" move and consistent long charge range. Kill team is supposed to be very heavy on terrain, so the deathponies can hide behind LOS blockers and go straight into combat with only overwatch to worry about.

2) Hunting lances hurt in a world where vehicles are rare and 2+ saves are banned. You're getting three lance attacks on the charge at WS 4 and I 5, wounding most models on a 3+ or better. Even without considering hammer of wrath or shooting that's a nice even dead marine on the charge.

3) Everyone has frag and krak grenades. And since every model is its own unit they can all throw their krak grenades every turn. So that's a nice barrage of STR 6 AP 4 shots before you charge, nicely making up for the fact that your basic laspistol sucks.

4) Everyone has two wounds and carapace armor. In a world where heavy/special weapons are limited and the really big guns are nonexistent this means that you can actually survive some shots from most enemy units. Movement speed should protect you, but you have a decent chance of surviving overwatch or random stray bolter shots.

5) You have 10 models on the table. This means that your break threshold is a lot higher than most elite armies.

6) You're winning games with ROUGH RIDERS.

So, how about a list (and note that this works like IG platoons, a death rider unit is 0-1 command squad and 1-6 normal squads)?

Death rider command squad:
Commander + 2x bolt pistol (leader)
4x veteran deathponies

Death rider squad:
Sergeant + power weapon (melee bonus)
4x deathponies

And two un-assigned upgrades. The obvious choice is some kind of melee upgrade, but I'm not sure what yet. Alternatively you can drop the command squad to a normal squad, losing BS 4 and the commander's order, and get an extra 15 points. This will let you buy a couple plasma pistols or power weapons for one of the sergeants.

Ain't it forgeworld?
Ain't nades s3?

koooaei wrote:
Ain't it forgeworld?
Ain't nades s3?

don't get him started, apparently the majority of players play the game wrong not allowing foreworld. Because they are totally not writing rules now for the sole purpose of selling suckers models, lke the Rvanna riptide, or THIS new abomination. 100 point av 13 3 hp drop pod, that after you depart from becomes a flyer with str 8 missles and can RAM vehicles.

but they are totally balanced rules.

Forgot painted pic.

koooaei wrote:
Ain't it forgeworld?

Yes. From the DKoK assault brigade or siege lists.

Ain't nades s3?

Frag grenades are (and have a blast). Krak grenades are STR 6 AP 4 without a blast. Death riders have both.

 Orock wrote:
don't get him started, apparently the majority of players play the game wrong not allowing foreworld.

Yeah, let's just hijack my thread so you can rant about how you don't like it when people don't accept your house rule.

Because they are totally not writing rules now for the sole purpose of selling suckers models, lke the Rvanna riptide, or THIS new abomination. 100 point av 13 3 hp drop pod, that after you depart from becomes a flyer with str 8 missles and can RAM vehicles.

So do you actually have a source for those rules, or are you just making stuff up? Because last time I checked they hadn't posted any rules for it yet, and had even said "sorry, our rule authors are on their holiday vacation so you'll have to wait a bit" when someone asked for them.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/LEGION_KHARYBDIS_ASSAULT_CLAW.html

the stats were leaked 2 days ago.

It's just one more reason people don't take forgeworld seriously. Blatant money grabs with no thought about how it actually affects the game.

You're right. Games Workshop takes much better care of the game's balance.

That's why Codex: Daemons is all but banned from major tournaments...

gtfo.

 Orock wrote:
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/LEGION_KHARYBDIS_ASSAULT_CLAW.html

the stats were leaked 2 days ago.

Yes, I've seen the pictures. Now please show me a source for the rules for the model, which FW have not published yet. I'd prefer one that has some credibility behind it, not just some random person making stuff up.

And please send it to me by PM instead of hijacking my thread.

 Orock wrote:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/LEGION_KHARYBDIS_ASSAULT_CLAW.html

the stats were leaked 2 days ago.

It's just one more reason people don't take forgeworld seriously. Blatant money grabs with no thought about how it actually affects the game.

Ya the random rumour is op and means all of forgeworld is op even though most of its stuff is pretty mediocre and it seems that they understand balance a LOT better than silly GDubs.

Back on topic, I think riugh riders could be great but what will the do about things like deldar venoms or cron GAs? The venom is too fast for them to scratch the paint on it and the GA is too durable of a gunboat for them to fight. Also dreadnoughts can be rough if it just sits back and dakkas where you cant outmaneuvre for rear armour. Hordes like IG blobs could be a threat to this list also, I like it tho it seems pretty good and should do well in just friendly games

 A GumyBear wrote:
The venom is too fast for them to scratch the paint on it

But remember, kill team is supposed to be played on a table with a lot of terrain. Cavalry can pretty consistently charge 20" from where they started the turn, and even if your weapons out-range them it's far from guaranteed that you'll be able to draw LOS from that far away. And since objectives matter eventually you're going to have to come out and fight. You'll probably kill one death rider on the turn you leave your hiding place, but then you lose it to the counter-charge.

and the GA is too durable of a gunboat for them to fight.

It's also banned because its total AV is over the limit.

Also dreadnoughts can be rough if it just sits back and dakkas where you cant outmaneuvre for rear armour.

Also banned by the AV limit.

Hordes like IG blobs could be a threat to this list also, I like it tho it seems pretty good and should do well in just friendly games

Hordes would be an interesting matchup. 35 guardsmen is a lot to kill, but I have a feeling that they're going to have a hard time concentrating the whole force onto a target, and they certainly can't win the maneuver game. I think it would come down to smashing whatever element of the blob tries to move up to claim objectives and trying to pick off isolated models with charges from out of LOS (where death riders slaughter guardsmen even once their lances are gone).

Looks pretty brutal, though I'd argue RAI they shouldn't get a grenade 'barrage' each turn (same deal as horrors)

 Dakkamite wrote:
Looks pretty brutal, though I'd argue RAI they shouldn't get a grenade 'barrage' each turn (same deal as horrors)

Well, RAI the horrors should get their power. The "ignore the brotherhood of psykers" rule is a blatant (though justified) special-case ruling to change the rules and ban a specific unit that would otherwise dominate the game. There's no reason to assume any broader implications of that ruling, especially for something that isn't anywhere near overpowered (krak grenades are a nice bonus, but hardly breaking the game).

My apologies I forgot about the AV limit, but yes hordes do seem to be troublesome for this style of list, boy blobs, ig blobs, and horror spam seem to be able to withstand all the damage the riders can do while still being able to retaliate with ease and cripple the groups of riders, sure the riders can toss frag grenades but the opponent can easily spread out to make sure you can hit at most 2 people with the small blast it generates

Seems like a lot of fun, quick moving and deadly.

id like to see more range support personally but if your going balls out for the charges then i suppose it wouldn't matter.

would like to see how it does against MCs and swarms.

koooaei wrote:
Ain't it forgeworld?
Ain't nades s3?

Oh come on, what FW would possibly break Kill Team? A quad launcher, so you can really, really kill one guy per turn? I just can't really see it being an issue in the current rules, even in a tournament. Most people don't play KT out of friendly quick pick ups so... what's the issue again? Not every topic with Peregrine in has to turn into a FW debate.


It's a very good list. Fast, fairly durable, plenty of models. That said, why the power weapon over giving both leaders melta bombs? At the moment, you're fairly weak against vehicles (even on the charge with your best guy, that's 5 S5 attacks) so the odd kill team with a piranha or chimera (especially Inquisition Kill Teams where they ID you with psybolt ammo) is a real issue. Doesn't make a huge difference I suppose. Necrons, especially running either Wraiths or Immortals with gauss are a real thorn for this list IMO; the gauss ignores your save, leaving you with only FNP, the Wraiths will ID you in combat which you have no choice but to face them in plus rends just flat out kill your stuff. You do get twice the models of them, and hence twice the wounds but it's a risky gambit IMO. I definitely think the higher BS is the right choice, that could make all the difference and the alternative realistically is 1 more attack on a sergeant.

Good picks for specialist rules IMO would be Eternal Warrior, Rage/Instant Death and Fleshbane/Shred. I don't think any of the others help you massively, with guerilla still free for the times you roll the right warlord trait.

By far your biggest issue will be the Ld of your men. At Ld 7, if you DO hit that threshold of break tests it could easily straight up kill you. Against hordes, you will be reliably killing them on the turn you charge, so can whittle you down with shooting immediately afterwards. Probably wouldn't be a huge issue, but one to consider nonetheless.

If your concerned about vehicles you could always give one of them haywire as a specialist. though is it 1 for all hits? or is it per hit?

ID on a lance would be cool.

and flesh bane would also be great for high T models.

seems your mostly set at that point.

 Desubot wrote:
If your concerned about vehicles you could always give one of them haywire as a specialist. though is it 1 for all hits? or is it per hit?

ID on a lance would be cool.

and flesh bane would also be great for high T models.

seems your mostly set at that point.

You cant give a model ID or Haywire rules, there's a lost in the KT packet that tells you what USR you can use

I would say FNP, armourbane, and EW for USRs

Check new kt rules from BL

 Desubot wrote:
Check new kt rules from BL

My bad, please excuse me while I go throw money at my screen so I can read up on the new rules

It actually seems a fair bit better, but yeah, screw shelling out for that - it should be a free update IMO

 Dakkamite wrote:
It actually seems a fair bit better, but yeah, screw shelling out for that - it should be a free update IMO

At least it's in digital form so the free update was released pretty much immediately.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eyjio wrote:
That said, why the power weapon over giving both leaders melta bombs?

I want to have a MEQ killer that can do its job effectively once the lances are gone. With rage that sergeant is getting six power weapon attacks on the charge, enough to finish off any MEQ it charges. Melta bombs only really help against vehicles, and vehicles aren't that much of a threat when everyone gets krak grenades.

At the moment, you're fairly weak against vehicles (even on the charge with your best guy, that's 5 S5 attacks) so the odd kill team with a piranha or chimera (especially Inquisition Kill Teams where they ID you with psybolt ammo) is a real issue.

Remember, everyone gets krak grenades and the only vehicles in kill team should be AV 10 on the back. And many of those vehicles will only have 2 HP. Throw a barrage of krak grenades in the shooting phase, then charge and stick a few more on the fuel tanks. Plus, the inability to split fire is going to make most vehicles a poor choice IMO. That Chimera is at least a third of your army, and it can only kill one model per turn. The Piranha is better since its drones can split fire against a second target, but it's also a lot more fragile.

Necrons, especially running either Wraiths or Immortals with gauss are a real thorn for this list IMO; the gauss ignores your save, leaving you with only FNP, the Wraiths will ID you in combat which you have no choice but to face them in plus rends just flat out kill your stuff.

This is probably the list I'm most worried about. My main offense is the lances, and wraiths have the invulnerable save and multiple wounds to take a lance hit and keep fighting, along with the mobility to compete in the maneuver battle. Immortals are less of a concern IMO, they have nasty offense but at least they're slow, they die to lances, and RP is a lot weaker in kill team. And I should still have at least a cover save against them to prevent it from being automatic death if they manage to get a shot off.

By far your biggest issue will be the Ld of your men.

Yep. Unfortunately that's just what you have to deal with if you want to play a non-marine army. Marines won't break, everyone else will.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Desubot wrote:
id like to see more range support personally but if your going balls out for the charges then i suppose it wouldn't matter.

IMO the problem is IG ranged support actually isn't that good in kill team. None of the vehicles are really a viable option, and the infantry options suffer from being either too expensive (platoon to unlock HWS) or too fragile (vets with special weapons), and either way they're tied to a bunch of useless guys with lasguns. A shooty IG list is never going to compete with a Tau list, so you really want to look in another direction.

And that's on top of the fundamental rules of kill team that work against shooty IG. Lots of terrain makes it hard to get good shooting positions, and really rewards fast units like cavalry/jetbikes/jump infantry/etc.

would like to see how it does against MCs

MCs aren't legal. There's a maximum of three wounds per model, and IIRC there aren't any MCs that fit within the limit.

I like the idea a lot. Can they re-use the lances? I was under the impression that explosive lances were one use only.

I'm making a shining spear kill team. Very similar, but more fragile with more offensive power.

MCs aren't legal. There's a maximum of three wounds per model, and IIRC there aren't any MCs that fit within the limit.

Canoptek spyders fit the bill, and I foresee those being spammed readily.


Also, as for the forgeworld debate, look at Acanthrites... I would hate to fight those in killteam.

 Silverthorne wrote:
I like the idea a lot. Can they re-use the lances? I was under the impression that explosive lances were one use only.

Just a one-use weapon. The idea is to make the one charge count. Against elite armies I should win if each of my lances kills one marine (their average outcome) with that first charge, leaving the normal close combat attacks (and the rage sergeant's power weapon) to mop up the survivors. Against hordes the lances are less important.

herpguy wrote:
Canoptek spyders fit the bill, and I foresee those being spammed readily.

Nope. They're heavy support and therefore not legal.

The Mycetic Spre is a 2 wound monstrous creature in the dedicated transport slot. Doesn't that count?

Corollax wrote:
The Mycetic Spre is a 2 wound monstrous creature in the dedicated transport slot. Doesn't that count?

Lol. I would love to see a kill team that somehow manages to make use of the fact that spores are MCs. Deploy one on an objective and force them to charge it and get smashed in combat?

I'd pay to see it.

Incidentally, I've been wracking my brain over wraiths. Are there any good counters for them in Kill Team? They seem ludicrously overpowered -- especially with units like PF or TH terminators out of the equation.

Even Grey Knights lack the ability to activate the force weapons that could kill them outright.

Corollax wrote:
Incidentally, I've been wracking my brain over wraiths. Are there any good counters for them in Kill Team?

Probably a horde list. They're expensive enough that you can't bring enough of them to kill a horde before the game ends (remember, each model can only kill one model per turn at most), and if you throw enough dice at them you'll probably kill one eventually. A list with 35 guardsmen is still going to have models on the table to claim objectives even if the wraiths each kill a guardsman every turn (after the first, since they can't charge turn 1) for the entire game. Well, ignoring break tests at least, but it's enough to illustrate the point.

This is one reason why I like the death rider list. Each of the models is a major threat, but I still have ten models on the table that can engage ten different targets every turn. They each do just enough damage to deal with their targets, without paying extra for overkill.

Corollax wrote:
I'd pay to see it.

Incidentally, I've been wracking my brain over wraiths. Are there any good counters for them in Kill Team? They seem ludicrously overpowered -- especially with units like PF or TH terminators out of the equation.

Even Grey Knights lack the ability to activate the force weapons that could kill them outright.

Honestly? No, there's no counter to them. They're the closest thing to a deathstar in KT and a team of 5 with particle casters (the 12" S6 pistol) won the last KT event at Warhammer World. How do you beat them then? Well, that's where the missions come in. See, at WW there was no turn limit (it was timed instead) and the only objective was in the middle-ish, so it was really easy for an elite army to contest and kill everything. That's not the case in current KT - you require bodies for several of the missions. Having only 5 turns means they're unlikely to ever force a break test, plus getting linebreaker as well as contesting 3 objectives will be nearly impossible. On top of that, in mission 5 elite armies have a huge disadvantage; they can't kill enough things to not lose. Imagine 5 Wraiths VS 30 orks - Wraiths will lose probably about 2-3 in the course of a game, Orks will lose ~15 at a guess, which means Orks will crush Wraiths in that mission.

Essentially, you play them as you would any other deathstar army - you beat them on missions, not via killing. Peregrine's list is a nice balance of killing and being able to play to objectives, but does have to watch out for a few things. I really want to see what the new nids codex can do.

Do you have to field legal squads, or can you just take something like 1 lychguard and stock up on scarabs?

Not quite sure how this new KT works. After reading through the rules, it seems like a cross between Combat Patrol and 4th ed Kill Team, though I'm not sure how much of 4th ed KT they took.