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I've been thinking about a possible Circle Orboros Gargantuan and what it would possibly be like rules wise in order to maintain the competitiveness of the current Wold Wrath. The Wold Wrath has a number of limitations that come from its status as a construct, it cannot be healed (except by Baldur and shifting stones) and cannot benefit from Animi that can only be cast on living models. In addition it can not be affected by spells at all, due to its spell ward.

With this in mind it is obvious to me that a living Gargantuan model with no special rules (outside of the standard Gargantuan rules) would have a number of advantages over the Wold Wrath. Spell and Animi synergies on top of healing synergies would make it a much more potent beast, which of course means that it would have to be reduced in potency in some other aspect in order to be balanced against the Wold Wrath.

Anyone care to speculate on what form it would take?

Do the Iron Kingdoms have Ent equivalents?

 Surtur wrote:
Do the Iron Kingdoms have Ent equivalents?

Yeah, they're called Wolds.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Surtur wrote:
Do the Iron Kingdoms have Ent equivalents?

Yeah, they're called Wolds.

Well, kinda but those are made by Circle with stone and wood. I mean something that is more of just living wood creature.

I still think all instances of spell ward need to be replaced by sacred ward. There's too many models and units held back by that rule. The only thing with spell ward that seems to thrive are doom reavers.

Apparently the Woldwrath had Sacred Ward during playtesting. But they didn't like how that balanced out. Pretty much all gargantuans were designed out of terror of overpowered stuff under the fury system. So that is what it is there.

I fail to see how a living gargantuan would wound actually help the Woldwrath any, seeing as having one in the list doesn't magically make the other better in other lists. The Woldwrath is actually one of if I think not the most played of the gargantuans (sees most competitive play) so while it could be better, it is not unplayable.

As a note, healing gargantuans in general isn't so great. Besides the fury that warlocks have and whelps with the Mountain King, most of it is limitted to Medicate, which is often once-per-beast-per-round and only 1d3. It helps on order of activation with the Woldwrath, but it's rare that it doens't have a unit of stones deciated to healing and Serenity next to it anyhow.

As for ents in the setting, the closest are indeed the constructs, which fit a bit of the animated wood thing. Otherwise it appears most sentient and sapient trees manifest more in the form of things like Gallows Groves or Wurmwood than they do something out of Tolkien. That is: they're still trees and need to use magic to do not-tree things.

And stuff.

 Blaque wrote:
I fail to see how a living gargantuan would wound actually help the Woldwrath any, seeing as having one in the list doesn't magically make the other better in other lists.

Nobody has suggested it would.

The Woldwrath is actually one of if I think not the most played of the gargantuans (sees most competitive play) so while it could be better, it is not unplayable.

Again this hasn't been suggested, however a living warbeast would have clear advantages over the Woldwrath

It helps on order of activation with the Woldwrath, but it's rare that it doens't have a unit of stones deciated to healing and Serenity next to it anyhow.

Warlocks that are not Baldur cannot heal the Woldwrath at all. A living Gargantuan would have warlock healing in all lists as well as the option for medicate. The real benefits would be the likes of pKaya's +2 MAT, Gorax's Primal, Wilder's fury management, Free charges with Kromac and eKaya, free Boosted attacks with Kromac, Electro Leap and electrical immunity with pKrueger and so on. The list of benefits that a living Gargantuan with no special rules would benefit from is simply too long to go into here. The option to gain +2/+3 armour with the Baldurs alone could outweigh free charges and power attacks.

Can the Goblin Tinker repair it?

 malfred wrote:
Can the Goblin Tinker repair it?

Sadly not, only warjacks and battle engines of all factions. Wold repair is the preserve of Baldur and Shifting Stones. The Woldwrath (and some of the other Wolds) may be the hardest models to repair in the game with warlock healing from Baldur and D3 from models that must choose to heal or move each turn as their only options.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Surtur wrote:
Do the Iron Kingdoms have Ent equivalents?

Yeah, they're called Wolds.

They're also too small to be Gargantuans

 George Spiggott wrote:
Nobody has suggested it would.

 George Spiggott wrote:
I've been thinking about a possible Circle Orboros Gargantuan and what it would possibly be like rules wise in order to maintain the competitiveness of the current Wold Wrath. ...

It appears something like that is being said, or I guess it would be compared to a Woldwrath in competitiveness. I might of simply mistook it.

 George Spiggott wrote:
Again this hasn't been suggested, however a living warbeast would have clear advantages over the Woldwrath

Unless it's statted like the Arcangel or Mountain King, which is why the Woldwrath does have some advantages those other beasts don't (higher total wounds, highest total MAT/RAT, tied for highest ARM, in the medium speed range for a gargossal). One need only look at what other gargantuans get and assume that it'll suffer similar issues as those for the same reason they have their buffs and fury mechanic taken into account.

Gargantuans in general are on the weaker side. A living gargantuan in Circle will likely be statted iwth the same mindset to it, resulting in liekly lower comparitive survivability, P+S or accuracy.

 George Spiggott wrote:
Warlocks that are not Baldur cannot heal the Woldwrath at all. A living Gargantuan would have warlock healing in all lists as well as the option for medicate. ...

Which is good in Circle but not actually that much better compared to anyone but Trollbloods. Warlocks generally would rather not spend fury to heal (it's moot if a system's out on such a large spiral) and stones do most of the work needed, as something damaging enough on the approach to take out an aspect is going ot kill it the next turn I have found most itmes. Gargantuans in general do not heal quite to the level that colossals can. It's a wash I have found over time.

 George Spiggott wrote:
... The real benefits would be the likes of pKaya's +2 MAT, Gorax's Primal, Wilder's fury management, Free charges with Kromac and eKaya, free Boosted attacks with Kromac, Electro Leap and electrical immunity with pKrueger and so on. The list of benefits that a living Gargantuan with no special rules would benefit from is simply too long to go into here. The option to gain +2/+3 armour with the Baldurs alone could outweigh free charges and power attacks.

Which I would assume would of resulted in something like Legion's Arcangel in Circle. Likely no real gun, squishy as hell, and while able to benefit from a lot of Circle buffs, probably will also be penalized in the department such that it requires those buffs to be operational (as per the Mountain King). The entire design philosophy to gargantuans is so conservative that what you see as benefits for no special rules would mean that it would have special rules that negate those benefits or be designed such that outsdie special rules make it work at all.

In a vacuum dealing with hypotheticals anything is a given. But what we have is what we have, and what we might have is so broad in how good or awful it is kind of moot. I need only look at the other three gargantuans and what they paid in their stats somewhere (MAT 5, THR 7, bad animus, 48 wound; ARM 19 Mt. King, RAT 3 RNG 10 Mammoth; DEF 11, ARM 18, 46 wound, RNG 10, SPD 6 Arcangel). The Woldwrath could of been doen better inherently (not even Spellward but some compensation for it's dififculty to buff such as more guns or higher P+S). All gargantuans suffer a fear of fury going amuck. And I doubt any future or potential ones would not of suffered in a similar fashion. In Circle a single living gargantuan has to contest of why not taking two Warpwolves. I question that besides being idiotically powerful in some fashion besides being a big healable damage bot that they it would be.

And stuff.

Well, having taken a look at the Circle part of the PP website, seeing as all non-construct type warbeasts are all wolves, griffons, etc. I find it hard to think up something that would fit into their scheme without in someway overlapping onto another faction's aesthetic.

I mean, the largest land creatures we can base things off of would be like Elephants and mammoths, which kinda fit in better with Skorne.


Perhaps something like an "alpha chimera" or something?? It would obviously look like a chimera, but be on a scale/size of other gargantuans/colossals in the game.

If Circle were to get some additional heavy, a sort of giant chimera eldritch abomination thing is about what I would expect to see. Probably with a wolf instead of a lion's head somewhere, and again, probably squishy as all get-out.

And stuff.

Multiple heads sounds SOOOOO Legion tho

What about a World Serpent, or is that a little too on the nose?

 Talamare wrote:
Multiple heads sounds SOOOOO Legion tho

What about a World Serpent, or is that a little too on the nose?

IIRC, there IS a giant serpent in one of the Monsternomicons.

Also, I believe that Monsternomicon lists Chimerae as something that don't "fit"/exist. Though there is the mindless, insane dragon Chimera.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Multiple heads sounds SOOOOO Legion tho

What about a World Serpent, or is that a little too on the nose?

IIRC, there IS a giant serpent in one of the Monsternomicons.

Also, I believe that Monsternomicon lists Chimerae as something that don't "fit"/exist. Though there is the mindless, insane dragon Chimera.

If you're not thinking of the Tatzylwurm (which is already a warbeast), you're probably thinking of the Gorgandur. Unfortunately, those are roughly the size of a small city, and probably inappropriate for play.

The Ziz fits the bill for circle...

Protects natural flying creatures, has weird fire powers, etc.

 Laughing Man wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Talamare wrote:
Multiple heads sounds SOOOOO Legion tho

What about a World Serpent, or is that a little too on the nose?

IIRC, there IS a giant serpent in one of the Monsternomicons.

Also, I believe that Monsternomicon lists Chimerae as something that don't "fit"/exist. Though there is the mindless, insane dragon Chimera.

If you're not thinking of the Tatzylwurm (which is already a warbeast), you're probably thinking of the Gorgandur. Unfortunately, those are roughly the size of a small city, and probably inappropriate for play.

I was in fact thinking of the Gorgandur. Having them as a hatchling might fit.

I googled Gorgandur and its mouth is the size of a house/building, so yes it might be too big

Also they are insanely rare, said to only be a few in the whole world


SOOOOOOOOO... Breed em!

Circle captured a Gorgandur and began breeding them for war, killing them before they get too massive and uncontrollable

The Woldwrath's main problem isn't that its a Construct, its that its overpriced by a point or so and can't receive most of Circle's buffs because of Spell Ward.

It's gun is basically awful considering the faction as a whole. Its only really good at killing infantry, something Circle doesn't have problems with.

Add in the normal construct limitations and you have a bit of a problem. Not as bad as the Mountain King or Archangel but its still not super amazing.