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How would you buff Dreadnaughts/Helbrutes to make them playable again? Make them better armored? Make them immune to the vehicle damage table?

Points reduction like -20 at least for dread noughts. Or make them naturally venerable are both easy and 'better then nothing fixes.'

Other more intensive fixes would be split fire, or AV +1 all around.

Even a step up from venerable is suffering crew shaken and stunned effects are ignored on 2+ but you still take HP damage, and you ignore your first immobilized result because your second leg kicks in over drive but you only move on a d6 roll but still take HP damage as normal.

Make them MC, that way they will be a lot tougher.

As much as I hate it, it's an all-too-common thing in 40k to slap "Monstrous Creature" on something that is neither monstrous nor a creature simply because the rules are good, so it wouldn't be a new thing. Dreadknights and Riptides come to mind.

I hate it because it doesn't make any sense. How come a Riptide can be poisoned and is immune to Haywire, etc? Why does a Riptide's pilot have "more soul" than a Fire Warrior (for things like Spirit Leech)? Of course, this is hardly unique to not-Monstrous-not-Creatures Monstrous Creatures; Necrons, for example, can be poisoned/sickened/feel pain/etc. Still.

Walkers (Dreadnought-style "mechs" as opposed to "turrets with legs" such as War Walkers and Sentinels) need to be fleshed out more. Perhaps their own damage table. Unfortunately this is the sort of thing that will have to wait until 7th Edition unless GW decide to make a walker supplement or something.

The Chaos Dreadnought needs to decide what it wants to do. Making it melee-focused (which the wargear encourages) is severely hindered by the 33% chance that it will roll Fire Frenzy and become unable to do anything for a turn because it gave up its shooting for melee. It can't be shooting-focused, though, not just because of the potential for Blood Rage but because of its very limited selection of guns. The Chaos Dreadnought is attempting to be both shooting and melee at the same time; this just means it is unable to do either effectively.

I really wouldn't mind if the Chaos Dreadnought wasn't just a clone of the Loyalist version, and was instead designed in such a manner that it felt like it was truly an enraged engine of uncontrollable hatred and madness. Instead it just acts completely schizophrenic, which is oddly reflected in both the Crazed! table and the wargear selection.

If anything the Helbrute, deff dread etc are more Monstrous Creature than the bloody Dreadknight and Riptide - their pilots are integrated into the vehicle, while the 'monstrous creatures' are vehicles that are piloted...

These rules are fething garbage. That literally makes zero sense. Might as well make vehicles beasts, and gives swarms an armour value.

Once again with the fool "make it a MC instead"...

What Chaos dreads miss is options.

It can't be Possesed, there is a whole of options that he can't get and there is no Venerable Chaosy variant.

I don't think there should be a venerable helbrute option. Chaos legions don't worship and respect those encased within the sarcophagi, they pity them, locked off as they are from the world and driven mad by the experience.

That said, clearly the walker rules do quite work as they should, seen by the numbers of models that should clearly be walkers that are being designated monstrous creatures. A seperate vehicle damage table is a potential aid there. I makes me think that perhaps there should be a few different vehicle damage tables. Walker, flyer, tank, skimmer, all others?

The schizophrenic nature of the helbrute is a holdover from 2nd I feel, where taking various options was useful, instead of the single focus from 3rd on. Taking anti-infantry guns was a good way to soften up or drive up some targets, while your heavy guns were often able to fire on a different class of target.
I think the Crazed table needs some work to back up the goal of a particular helbrute, but it isn't necessarily intended to be a good thing anyway... Perhaps it must retaliate on the last unit to cause a hull poit loss, but you can choose whether to shoot twice, or, run closer then shoot (if within charge range, cannot shoot and must charge)?

I'd like to see more options as a quick fix, or a price drop. Be nice to get 1-3 of them as one choice if they have to remain bad for an edition

I'd want the 'Brutes to get IWND, and re-rolls on the damage table (like venerables in 5th [I haven't read their rules in 6th]).

I'd also like the Helbrutes to have the option of taking better armament, and be able to upgrade their armour.

Possibly also the Daemon rule.

Dreadnought CCW:s should cause multiple wounds even if nothing else will. Your flesh monster just got it's guts ruptured by a giant powerfist, "1 wounds buy more MC:s such as riptide".

 Rautakanki wrote:
Dreadnought CCW:s should cause multiple wounds even if nothing else will. Your flesh monster just got it's guts ruptured by a giant powerfist, "1 wounds buy more MC:s such as riptide".

We need a USR called "Evisceration" that does +D3 wounds upon successful wound.

The main issue with vehicles is that they have no armor save. They function very similarly to a multi wound creature. They have armor which is essentially toughness, they have HPs which are wounds, but they have no armor save! Imagine running your riptide around with no armor save. It would melt just like a dreadnought.

Also, if vehicles had armor saves then we can do away with the AP based modifiers on the damage charts because the AP would very logically come into play when interacting with the vehicles armor save.

Even in death I still serve: Dreadnoughts ignore the damage table. They suffer Hull point damage for each unsaved glance/pen.

Armored Sarcophagus: 3+ armor save 5++.

Slight points increase as they are currently overpriced.

What sucks about Fire Frenzy is that the Helbrute doesn't recover from crew shaken/stunned results.

I think the whole of the walker type needs a little modification.

They should be near unstoppable in close combat but most easily die to grenades so the first change should be to bring back the old "In close combat grenades only ever hit a walker on a to-hit roll of 6".

I think giving them special damage resistance rules would be very messy, why are they more resistant than a predator/chimera/falcon. We already have different forms of damage resistance in the AV & Hull Points.

One thing that could be done would be to give them all "Skyfire and interceptor in their shooting phase if they didn't move in there preceding movement phase". Might be a little OP but would solve alot of armies anti-air problems and most of their weapons are mounted so they can fire at elevated angles.

They should have "Hammer of Wrath".

They don't need to be better at close combat - they need to be able to *get* to close combat first and foremost

 Dakkamite wrote:
They don't need to be better at close combat - they need to be able to *get* to close combat first and foremost

The could still do with being a more capable assault unit though. Then we'd have a reason to pay 100+ points for a melee variant.
Still.

They could do with the Daemon rule and an option for +1 Av to front and sides. And maybe IWND.

Remove Hellbrutes, add in Dreadnoughts as they were, with the 4th edition rules, allow them to be taken in formations, and give them icons boosts, with a point reduction as a FA slot.

To be fair, I haven't even read the 6th edition rules for hellbrutes, but I'm assuming they're garbage since GW hasn't released a plastic kit for them, and as usual, GW is using the creativity of its players as an excuse not to release a dedicated kit.

 Captain Fantastic wrote:
Remove Hellbrutes, add in Dreadnoughts as they were, with the 4th edition rules, allow them to be taken in formations, and give them icons boosts, with a point reduction as a FA slot.

To be fair, I haven't even read the 6th edition rules for hellbrutes, but I'm assuming they're garbage since GW hasn't released a plastic kit for them, and as usual, GW is using the creativity of its players as an excuse not to release a dedicated kit.

Forgeworld has a nice supply of resin CSM Dreads, designed for each legion.

I think dreads are fine the way the are. Like any other "vehicle" you take, there's a chance of it dying with one hit or 10 hits depends what you shoot at it

 Dakkamite wrote:
They don't need to be better at close combat - they need to be able to *get* to close combat first and foremost

I don't necessarily agree, most walkers are mixed firepower/assault vehicles so they're going to do something while they advance anyway, but they just get oneshot by monstrous creatures in close combat while needing luck and many turns to kill any MC back. It doesn't seem right.

Though neither does it seem right that a Lascannon simply cannot kill a Carnifex in one shot - what the hell if a flesh monster takes a Lascannon shot to the head it's gonna be dead as gak. But no, in this game you gotta spend the boss monsters energy bar completely and it doesn't even have weak points that do more damage.

They need to have more than 2 attacks in combat, for one. It's a whirling, pissed off Death Machine.

Either they need to be 70-80pts base, or a low end MC. (ala Carnifex)

GorillaWarfare wrote:
The main issue with vehicles is that they have no armor save. They function very similarly to a multi wound creature. They have armor which is essentially toughness, they have HPs which are wounds, but they have no armor save! Imagine running your riptide around with no armor save. It would melt just like a dreadnought.

Also, if vehicles had armor saves then we can do away with the AP based modifiers on the damage charts because the AP would very logically come into play when interacting with the vehicles armor save.

I think this is the simplest and best way to improve vehicles all around in 6th. When you look at vehicles like the Drake and Soulgrinder, or Eldar Skimmers, their extra ability to take Daemon or Jink saves is an important part if their appeal.

I could easily see:
Rhino, Heldrake, Forgefiend, Maulerfiend - 4+
Helbrute, Defiler - 3+
Landraider - 2+

Just for the Chaos Codex.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:
The main issue with vehicles is that they have no armor save. They function very similarly to a multi wound creature. They have armor which is essentially toughness, they have HPs which are wounds, but they have no armor save! Imagine running your riptide around with no armor save. It would melt just like a dreadnought.

Also, if vehicles had armor saves then we can do away with the AP based modifiers on the damage charts because the AP would very logically come into play when interacting with the vehicles armor save.

I think this is the simplest and best way to improve vehicles all around in 6th. When you look at vehicles like the Drake and Soulgrinder, or Eldar Skimmers, their extra ability to take Daemon or Jink saves is an important part if their appeal.

I could easily see:
Rhino, Heldrake, Forgefiend, Maulerfiend - 4+
Helbrute, Defiler - 3+
Landraider - 2+

Just for the Chaos Codex.

And then we'd be competitive! As long as no other army gets the saves that is...

Crazed: Treat the ‘Fire Frenzy’ result as ‘Blood Rage’ if the Helbrute was bought with two melee weapons. Treat the ‘Blood Rage’ result as ‘Fire Frenzy’ if the Helbrute was bought with no melee weapons.

There, Crazed is fixed. Now we just need to fix the fact that it's a Dreadnought and dies to everything anyway.

 Dakkamite wrote:
They don't need to be better at close combat - they need to be able to *get* to close combat first and foremost

This is a problem that all melee units without a decent delivery system have and isn't unique to dreadnoughts. The way I see it is that you either need a system-side fix for that problem or you compensate affected units with delivery systems or cost decreases as appropriate.

 Dakkamite wrote:
They don't need to be better at close combat - they need to be able to *get* to close combat first and foremost

The problem is that right now there's little or no incentive to try to get them into close combat. You're not going to do very much with your laughable 2-4 attacks, so the only viable use for a dread is putting guns on it and shooting stuff. Making it easier to get that laughable damage into combat doesn't change the fundamental problem.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:

GorillaWarfare wrote:
The main issue with vehicles is that they have no armor save. They function very similarly to a multi wound creature. They have armor which is essentially toughness, they have HPs which are wounds, but they have no armor save! Imagine running your riptide around with no armor save. It would melt just like a dreadnought.

Also, if vehicles had armor saves then we can do away with the AP based modifiers on the damage charts because the AP would very logically come into play when interacting with the vehicles armor save.

I think this is the simplest and best way to improve vehicles all around in 6th. When you look at vehicles like the Drake and Soulgrinder, or Eldar Skimmers, their extra ability to take Daemon or Jink saves is an important part if their appeal.

I could easily see:
Rhino, Heldrake, Forgefiend, Maulerfiend - 4+
Helbrute, Defiler - 3+
Landraider - 2+

Just for the Chaos Codex.

Yup, kind of what I was thinking. Of course, with the rules as is, most weapons that you shoot at these tanks would eliminate the armour save anyway. Something like this would require changes in other place to be effective.

As for a one shot change to dreadnoughts, perhaps AV 13/12/11 and a points adjustment to compensate.

 Dakkamite wrote:
They don't need to be better at close combat - they need to be able to *get* to close combat first and foremost

This totally deserves to be exalted. It's so true though.

On a side note I think it should do more damage in melee like it can have two attacks but 1 wound causes 2 or just d3 wounds like someone else mentioned.

Dat Guy wrote:

 Dakkamite wrote:
They don't need to be better at close combat - they need to be able to *get* to close combat first and foremost

This totally deserves to be exalted. It's so true though.

On a side note I think it should do more damage in melee like it can have two attacks but 1 wound causes 2 or just d3 wounds like someone else mentioned.

The only type of opponent this would serve against is HQ and MC. How would causing two or more wounds per successful attack actually make the dreadnought more useful? Are melee with characters and monstrous creatures really their problem? Really, is it the dreadnought's shortcoming or does it just so happen that there's a few too many MCs in this edition? That last one is actually a serious question, because if it is the latter then the Dreadnought sure as hell shouldn't cause more wounds per failed save.

I went through the comparatives between a Dread and an MC, and really now, there's not much difference! A Dreadnought typically has a toughness that is more equivalent of a Wraithlord, i.e. significantly higher than the average MC, but no save. For slightly lower cost it also comes without Smash but has a Power Fist that gets one attack less - so it's always smashing at initiative 1 instead of 4+. Armament options are slightly worse for shooting, but the Wraithlord actually has to pay for a heavy weapon to begin with - albeit this is hard to compare.
Why do I compare with the Wraithlord? I like the Wraithlord and seldom find them to be bad value in my non-Iyanden non-Wraithseer lists.

Really, all I can justify for the Dreadnought variants (in Space Wolf and Space Marine (latest) codex) is a point drop by at the very most 20 points, and that's pushing it. Mechanical problems of delivery is an edition thing - but then again you actually get a transport for the bloody things and drop pod as well! Maybe, just maybe, it needs another attack in close combat, but I'm retracting the point discount in that case.

It's not meant to be your go-to solution for the Wraithknight/Riptide problem!

(Sorry for just quoting you, Dat Guy, there's other I address as well)