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Calgar

Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Plasmagun, Lascannon, Rhino- 210
Tactical Marines x10: Lascannon, Rhino- 195

Stalker
Stalker
Centurion Devastators x3: Grav Cannons, Omniscope- 260

Total: 1850

How about some mobility? Again, not at all top-tier but I think you've got tools for the toolbox here. It's got no psychic D; but I think Nids will run Jetseer, Flying Circus and Screamerstar out of the barn by bringing Shadow in the Warp back to prominence and prevalence.

Nids have the drop on Daemons if both players are skilled already, even before a new codex for bugs. And once they DO get a new dex and people start bringing them in bulk, you can bet the top players who were running Jetseer will shift off of it (probably to Nids themselves lulz).

That being said, you now have to contend with Nids, which this list can. You have to deal with Gravbike, which with great care, this list can.

What do you think? Better? Are we approaching viability? Let's try to be constructive for the OP!

 The Shrike wrote:
Calgar

Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Flamer, Multi-melta, Rhino- 190
Tactical Marines x10: Plasmagun, Lascannon, Rhino- 210
Tactical Marines x10: Lascannon, Rhino- 195

Stalker
Stalker
Centurion Devastators x3: Grav Cannons, Omniscope- 260

Total: 1850

How about some mobility? Again, not at all top-tier but I think you've got tools for the toolbox here. It's got no psychic D; but I think Nids will run Jetseer, Flying Circus and Screamerstar out of the barn by bringing Shadow in the Warp back to prominence and prevalence.

Nids have the drop on Daemons if both players are skilled already, even before a new codex for bugs. And once they DO get a new dex and people start bringing them in bulk, you can bet the top players who were running Jetseer will shift off of it (probably to Nids themselves lulz).

That being said, you now have to contend with Nids, which this list can. You have to deal with Gravbike, which with great care, this list can.

What do you think? Better? Are we approaching viability? Let's try to be constructive for the OP!

In the heart of constructive involvement - grab combi-weapons before heavies, so you can stay on the move. When running a billion tacs, Melta-bombs are a well-costed and versatile pickup. Power weapons are... eh, but you may need them with your troops running double-duty as assault deterrents and gunmen. You have precisely one unit of anti-TEQ/MEQ, which will be focused because of this. Your AA has no interceptor, and thus will be focused before turn two rolls around. I'd drop the Stalkers and a tac squad, redestribute points around, try and find room for an Aegis w/ Quad for Calgar or a Stormraven for those Cents.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also, your AT is devastatingly weak, and two lascannons aren't doing anything to change that. They're also operating at the wrong range for the boltguns around them. Swap for meltas.

I think this list suffers from having AV11 front which is basically giving up first blood. It can work but you are facing an uphill battle. I could see it's use for a cities of death game but that's it.

Drop Pods, though, is what I think will win the day for tac spam. They basically solve one the biggest issues for marines: Getting their weapons into decent range. So, my list would be something akin to...

Vulkan 190

Troops

Tactical Squad 205
+5 Marines
+Drop Pod
+Meltagun
+MM
+Combi Melta

Tactical Squad 205
+5 Marines
+Drop Pod
+Meltagun
+MM
+Combi Melta

Tactical Squad 210
+5 Marines
+Drop Pod
+Plasma Gun
+Multimelta
+Combi Plasma

Tactical Squad 210
+5 Marines
+Drop Pod
+Plasma Gun
+Multimelta
+Combi Plasma

Elites:
Sternguard Veteran Squad 205
+Drop Pod
+2x Heavy Flamers
+3x Combi Meltas

Sternguard Veteran Squad 205
+Drop Pod
+2x Heavy Flamers
+2x Combi Meltas

Heavy Support
Thunderfire Cannon 100
Thunderfire Cannon 100

Fast Attack:
Landspeeder 80
+MM
+MM

Landspeeder 80
+MM
+MM

Total: 1750

No love for Imperial Fists here? Wouldn't their trait make bolter spam at least a tad more effective?

Martel732 wrote:
But it's incredibly lame. Marines should not be reduced to Orks.

i'm beating gunline tau most of the time, triptide spam 100% of the time and competitive eldar from time to time with my orkses. What am i doing wrong?

Anywayz, stop moaning and start thinking how are you gona make it. Tactical spam can work great in drop pods. It can work fairly well in rhinos as point-holders. It lacks punch but has fair survivability vs anything ap4 or worse, which is like >80% of all shooting. What else do you need? U wana take some 5-man back-sitters in a few razorbacks and rock the board like in 5 ed?

Sounds like you are doing Orks right. But marines should not play like Orks. That's all I'm saying.

I really like that Sally list.

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds like you are doing Orks right. But marines should not play like Orks. That's all I'm saying.

It's definitely true. However, i'm just pointing out that even such widely considered non-competitive and very old army like orkses (yep, we're 4-th edition 2006 dex still) can beat faces to competitive new lists. There was a guy on ETC that played orkses + tau. Tau shot from afar and used kroot distraction while Ghazzy with meganobz and boyz with kff mek in battlewagonz did stuff midfield and pushed the enemy from their points. So everyone did what they do best and that didn't feel like tau dominated this list at all. Orkses are just short on strong and durable long-range support and you can't win games without it. He didn't manage to do even one wipe-out but he won most of his games vs top-tier armies.
So why don't you change your view on tacticals a bit. U'r codex has options to fill any gasp you have. Don't expect tacticals to be uber-killers. Even fluffwise tactical squads are NOT exterminators. They're supposed to be used Tactically. And they do have such uses.

Can tactical spam work? no. But are a couple of melta pod tacticals effective? very much so.

Remember, a 5 man tactical pod with MG and combi MG is what, 60 points cheaper than an equivelent sternguard pod with 3 combi meltas. Furthermore with Um twin linking the turn the tacticals land... hey look they are just as effective to boot (about 2 hits each).

I like 2 pods with 10 tacticals each with MG, combi and MM goodness. So far been extremely effective and lets my third pod be naked sternguard.

Then I round things out with bikes.

 koooaei wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Sounds like you are doing Orks right. But marines should not play like Orks. That's all I'm saying.

It's definitely true. However, i'm just pointing out that even such widely considered non-competitive and very old army like orkses (yep, we're 4-th edition 2006 dex still) can beat faces to competitive new lists. There was a guy on ETC that played orkses + tau. Tau shot from afar and used kroot distraction while Ghazzy with meganobz and boyz with kff mek in battlewagonz did stuff midfield and pushed the enemy from their points. So everyone did what they do best and that didn't feel like tau dominated this list at all. Orkses are just short on strong and durable long-range support and you can't win games without it. He didn't manage to do even one wipe-out but he won most of his games vs top-tier armies.
So why don't you change your view on tacticals a bit. U'r codex has options to fill any gasp you have. Don't expect tacticals to be uber-killers. Even fluffwise tactical squads are NOT exterminators. They're supposed to be used Tactically. And they do have such uses.

Because Orks are better than tacticals. That's why I won't change my opinion. Marines don't have the body count of Orks, nor open topped transports. The new marine book has only a few units I would consider "really good" and so I don't think there's much to fill gaps with. I won't be using tactical marines to any great extent.

Largo39 wrote:

I like 2 pods with 10 tacticals each with MG, combi and MM goodness.

Ain't mm heavy so that u're shooting snapshots when you arrive via droppod? Legion of the damned could use mm on deepstrice cause they're sn

Martel732 wrote:

Because Orks are better than tacticals. That's why I won't change my opinion. Marines don't have the body count of Orks, nor open topped transports. The new marine book has only a few units I would consider "really good" and so I don't think there's much to fill gaps with. I won't be using tactical marines to any great extent.

Orkses are not really better than tacticals. Their only advantage is assault weaponry but we struggle to get in range. We don't have droppods to deliver boyz. Even when i played vanilla marines before new 6 ed books i had no significant problems vs orkses. Why don't you try out tacticals in drop-pods and then tell "omg i had no chances - give me cheeze to outcheeze eldar and tau". Just from my humble experience:
Tacticals DO work in droppods and they're fine in rhinos. Not great but fine as midfield controllers. Tac squad - one half with a lc/ac backfield point-sitting, other half with something like plazma/melta is riding a rhino somewhere midfield and controlling a point. 3+ in ruins on someone with ld 8-9 is not that easy to move lategame. U could have 3-4 such squads and they'd do what they're supposed to do. They're good at holding, aiding and clearing out the remains. But you need some other striking force as a spearhead.

So all in all, for a question: "Can tactical spam work?" we can answer: "Yes, they work for what they're designed and not for spearheading".

Martel732 wrote:
"Marines may not be able to make spam-win lists like eldar or tau, but they have many very good units (mainly in fast/heavy slots), including one of the best troops in the game. Marines are also the best at killing MC`s in the game, which is fairly important at the moment, and with GMC`s is just getting more important.
"

Please enumerate these "very good units". Especially in the heavy slot. There's the TFC and what else? Grav cents? I guess.

What makes marines the best at killing MCs? Grav? I think the DE and IG are both still better at killing MCs. IG are better vs the fliers in particular.

Grav is indeed what makes marines the best MC (and especially GMC) killers.

IG better at killing MC`s? MC`s are IG`s largest weakness. What weapons do IG have that will allow them to stop those three wraithknights or those four riptides? Expensive Bs3 lascannons? IG has great flyers and great pie plates, neither of which are particularly good at taking down MC`s.

Marine units I have used in my very competitive lists the last 3-4 months:

HQ -
Khan

Troops -
Bikes
Scouts
Land Speeder Storm
Tacticals
Drop pod

Fast -
Land Speeder
Attack Bikes
Storm Talon

Heavy -
Thunderfire
Centurions
Devastators
Storm Raven

IMO, that is a pretty good list already, and of course, as this is just adaptions and different point levels of a white scars list, there are other units that can be very competitive in the right lists.

However, I doubt I can really help you, as it just seems like you want to have something to complain about. None of my opponents, which include a lot of eldar, ever say that SM`s are weak.

I don't know if weak is the right word. But definitely not strong. I have been in (and won more than 50%) of my games against other marines whether in mirror match or playing as BA. In terms of analysis of marines, I don't think I need help. I'm well aware of what is considered the strong marine units. And while effective, they just don't have the killing power of the Xeno lists. Or the invulnerable units.

More than 50% of my games against Eldar the outcome was NEVER in question. The marines still have no answer to jetseer council and that's a serious flaw. If the Eldar are not finding marines weak, the Eldar player is doing something wrong. Because my BA don't find them strong. And that's a big red flag.

But what I think needs to be considered is is lacking a counter to the likes of seer councils and Screamerstars is a flaw in the SM codex, or if it is a flaw with the more powerful codexes that have accidentally become OP when they were never intended to. Going back to my earlier assessment, SM are on the same level as most codexes that aren't Tau, Eldar or Demons, which would imply that those three are anomalously powerful rather than SM being weak. I know this doesn't make those lists go away, but it does suggest that they are too strong rather than other codexes being too weak, and that lacking a counter is no fault of the SM codex, but the fault of the lack of playtesting to prevent things like 2++ rerollables coming into play. I'm fairly certain that the Development team never intended such combos to exist or be played so extensively.

A question to those of you who have a lot of experience against the newer codexes:
Do they still massively outclass SM without their crutches? If you were to limit Tau to one riptide, and remove Seer Councils and Screamerstars from the equation, are Marines still so poor? If so, then I concede that SM may be below the power of those dexes as a whole, but if removing those units levels the playing field, I think that's evidence that the problem is not with SM but with a handful of units in other codexes.

I predict the same thing will happen with Orks and Nids. If these codices outclass SM, then we know that power armor is just shafted in 6th ed.

If 3/6 6th edition codices are stronger than yours, how can you consider that an "anomaly"? Also not that all the Xeno codices are stronger than ALL the power armor codices.

Even without seer council, the marines can't crack the wave serpents, warp spiders, and pseudo rending catapults.

For Daemons, I'm going to still give the nod because the marines don't have the firepower to stop the hordes and FMC circus still trumps grav in most cases. (You'll need Tiggy with grav cents; other builds need not apply)

Tau, already the weakest of three in my opinion, would be the most manageable. Marines are still staring at ton of firepower and near-suicidal assaults into multiple overwatches.

A fundamental problem that just cannot be avoided is that not only is the tactical marine just not efficacious, but the drop pod panacea piecemeals your own list, making it easier to deal with for firepower-based lists.

" I know this doesn't make those lists go away"

At the end of the day, this is the problem. Everything is relative. We can't take away the Xeno's toys, and so marines are weak in comparison.

Martel732 wrote:
I predict the same thing will happen with Orks and Nids. If these codices outclass SM, then we know that power armor is just shafted in 6th ed.

If 3/6 6th edition codices are stronger than yours, how can you consider that an "anomaly"? Also not that all the Xeno codices are stronger than ALL the power armor codices.

I'm interested to see what happend with Orks and Nids. I predict they'll be given some tricks to make CC more viable again, which I imagine will completely shake up the meta, but if they do massively outclass SM on their own merits, rather than just on one unit/combo, then it does suggest a weakness to SM. However, I'll hold off judgement until the books are actually out.

Even without seer council, the marines can't crack the wave serpents, warp spiders, and pseudo rending catapults.

Fair point about the catapults, the problem with them is that whatever armour you pay for, the rending invalidates it, so they are naturally a hard counter to MEQ. That would be fine on a few weapons, but across the whole army it is rather too powerful. However, I think that with podding melta/plasma, SM can probably apply enough pressure to force the Serpents to keep the shield up, and that massively reduces their firepower. I've no idea what Warp Spiders are capable of, so I won't comment there.

For Daemons, I'm going to still give the nod because the marines don't have the firepower to stop the hordes and FMC circus still trumps grav in most cases. (You'll need Tiggy with grav cents; other builds need not apply)

I think SM can handle hordes, with the TFC a great asset here and at the end of the day, bolters are still good at anti-horde. FMCs are an issue, but with certain builds (grav-star, Stormwing+codex fliers) they should be able to compete.

Tau, already the weakest of three in my opinion, would be the most manageable. Marines are still staring at ton of firepower and near-suicidal assaults into multiple overwatches.

I wouldn't say charging multiple overwatches is suicidal when you consider how little force you actually need to apply to tau to make them capitulate in CC, and every unit that overwatches one charger can't defend itself. Like every other assault-based plan, you need multiple chargers and force concentration, but it's more than doable.

A fundamental problem that just cannot be avoided is that not only is the tactical marine just not efficacious, but the drop pod panacea piecemeals your own list, making it easier to deal with for firepower-based lists.

I don't agree with that to be honest. Used properly, Pods can seriously reduce incoming fire by blocking LOS, providing cover, and getting you to the best position. It's not that piecemeal considering you get half on the first turn, and if you're really concerned, anything with a comm relay can help reduce that issue. Drop Pods are probably the best option outside of bikes that SM can take for troops.

" I know this doesn't make those lists go away"

At the end of the day, this is the problem. Everything is relative. We can't take away the Xeno's toys, and so marines are weak in comparison.

However, like I've pointed out before, Tau, Eldar and Demons aren't the only armies, and against the rest SM are more than valid. Just because we can't beat the 3 lists that every other army struggles with, that does not render us weak as a whole.

Let's break this down very simply. Why does one usually take a tactical marine squad?

There are a number of Elements to why someone would take any unit:

- Scoring
- Damage Output
- Damage Soak
- Area Denial
- Actually Dangerous Area Denial/Damage Soak
- Phasing
- Assault
- Meatshielding
- Versatility

Scoring:
Tactical marines are fairly resilient and reliably priced at 14 points. But, if you're just taking them because they have power armour, you're paying 4 points for a 16.667% resilience bonus against poor AP weapons, and a higher AP threshold.
Scout marines with Camo Cloaks cost 3 points less, but always get a save, save for weapons that may ignore their cover and armour - most of those such weapons would, unfortunately, ignore the armour of marines too.
Another Reason why scouts are better here is that they don't provide a great threat; 4 squads of 10 scouts costs the player 420 points and gives him ample cheap outflanking units to hide until objectives need to be grabbed.

Taken for this reason? Yes.
Should it be taken for this reason? Yes.
Better Option for this Reason? Potentially. Check your Meta.

Damage Output
Tactical marines have BS4, and can carry heavy weapons. Unfortunately, they can't run 2 special weapons or 2 heavy weapons, so their damage is split between a long range weapon, like a missile launcher or lascannon, and a short ranged weapon like a plasma gun or melta gun.
Also, Heavy Weapons ensure that you're either wasting points on a heavy bolter, or that you're wasting 8 boltguns. This said, it would be silly not to take advantage of the heavy weapon or special weapon slot available to the player, if they have the points. (even a heavy bolter is better than nothing.)

Taken for this Reason? Yes.
Should it be taken for this reason? Sorta. Always take on because why the feth not
Better Option for this reason? Undoubtedly.

Damage Soak
T4, one wound and a 3+ save. They aren't threatening enough to be targeted over that vindicator you're trying to protect.

Taken for this Reason? I sure hope not.
Should it be taken for this reason? God no.
Better option for this reason? Read: Just about anything in Marine's Heavy Support, save for maybe a whirlwind against the wrong opponent.

Area Denial
Again, Tactical Marines are really not threatening enough for this purpose.

Taken for this reason? Probably not.
Should it be? Nope.
Better Option? Very hard to find a good one, but if you're willing to fork out the dough and points, 6 centurion devastators will deny an area like no one's business.

Actually Dangerous for either of the above?
Nope.

Nope, Nope and nope.

Phasing:
Phasing is the art of scaring your opponent by presenting them with something they think is rather dangerous, even though it really isn't. Phasers tend to be good damage soaks, but capable of delivering something scary if they're ignored.
Excellent examples include (in last edition) A land raider delivering Cassius and 5 assault terminators. or in this edition, once again I bring up centurion devastators (expensive, but very dangerous if left unchecked.).
Of course, Tactical marines aren't that dangerous, so they make a poor phaser.


Taken for this reason? Occasionally, actually.
Should it? Probably not.
Better option? Several.

Assault
Assault is dead in 40k, but some units can pull it off. Unfortunately, tactical marines are not one of those units, being neither designed nor capable of it.

Taken for this reason? By 12 year olds who've just read some fluff.
Should it? nope.
Better option? Scout marines are better. Seriously, WS3/4 isn't that big unless your opponent is WS7 or better, and marines are dead against anything that is WS7 anyway. they're identical mathematically otherwise, except scouts can get an extra attack each round - which will make up for the difference in hit score against WS3.

Meatshield?
Meatshielding differs from damage soaking in that it is putting bodies between your cherished unit and your opponent. this can give you the time you need to do a withdrawl, or to launch a counter charge on the unit. Marines aren't dangerous, which means they're usuallys till around by turn 3. Therefore, they make a great, expendable meatshield.

Taken for this reason? Yes.
Should it? Yes.
Better Option? Here, marines have the benefit of being slightly more capable than scout marines and slightly more survivable. Yes, they are the best option.

Versatility
Here's where Marines Shine. They might not put out the damage of a devastator team, or have the survivability and dangerousness combines to be a firesoak, but they can score, shoot big weapons and can meatshield if required.

Taken for this reason? Yes.
Should it? Most definitely.
Better option? Sternguard are Tactical Marines on steroids when combined with kantor, but you still need actual troops.

In short, marines are capable units that can cause some damage and generally put in a good showing. They won't win the game by being dangerous, they'll win it for you by being inconspicuous, and in a game where scoring is needed 83% of the time, that's pretty big.

That said, no. Tactical marine spam will not work. What - might - work, is 6 5-man tactical marine squads over 3 10 man squads. This allows you to get 6 missile launchers as well as 6 razorbacks if you're intot hat (without really paying a premium) and the only downside is that you don't have any ten man squads. (of course, you can run a pair of ten man squads there, but they'll usually combat squad at any rate.)

"However, like I've pointed out before, Tau, Eldar and Demons aren't the only armies, and against the rest SM are more than valid. Just because we can't beat the 3 lists that every other army struggles with, that does not render us weak as a whole."

It does when those are the lists to beat. And all the other lists marines are good against are other meqs or 5th edition lists.

Oh, and don't forget Necrons/GK, either. They can still field lists that are hard for C:SM. The 6th edition C:SM codex is neither creative nor appropriate for the realities of 6th edition.

To answer one of your points, warp spiders have huge movement and spam S6. They can get other tricks, but mainly just do what the rest of the Eldar do, spam high Strength and make T4 useless.

As for drop pods, I don't really fear them with BA, so why would the Eldar truly care? You are also praying to go first, because once the holofields kick in, you're done.

Getting only half your force on turn 1 is serious piecemealing. They get at least one turn to wail on only half your force. I know this because I beat drop pod lists to death with BA, who are terrible.

DP do give them a turn attacking only half your force, but on the other hand, you can and should be using them to attack only a small portion of the enemy force, so it balances out. Unless you aren't using much terrain, you should be able to block LOS for a good deal of the enemy force, and the pods themselves can provide a lot of cover to units behind them.

Drop pods are the best option for force concentration, and you can easily bring the half of your army against a third of theirs, and in most cases block off/be out of range of another third or so.

Drop armies have never been able to get half their army against a third of mine. They usually utterly lack blast weapons, so there is no reason not to stack my BA shoulder to shoulder as a welcoming committee.

Drop pods, due to the model, don't really do a good job of blocking LOS themselves.

And the more terrain there is on the table, the WORSE it is for the pod player, as you have fewer places to drop.

@Martel

Just because an army does poorly against your list doesn't mean it's a bad list. For example, an Eldar Jetbike list vs an IG Leman Russ spam list. It's a shooting gallery really especially if you can castle up behind an ADL. Does that mean Jetbike lists are bad? No, they would do well against foot armies due the insane amount of shots they can pump out.

My posted army would do well against a lot of Necron lists since it denies them the range and vehicles the 'Crons need to carry the day.

Martel732 wrote:
Drop armies have never been able to get half their army against a third of mine. They usually utterly lack blast weapons, so there is no reason not to stack my BA shoulder to shoulder as a welcoming committee.

Drop pods, due to the model, don't really do a good job of blocking LOS themselves.

And the more terrain there is on the table, the WORSE it is for the pod player, as you have fewer places to drop.

That was a poorly constructed drop pod list then. 3 TFCs is COMMON now; especially in pod lists because it's a cheap way to up your T1 numbers. If you bunch up, have fun with the 50-60 wounds I'm going to put on you with my TFCs followed by the arrival of 5 pods full of goodness.

As to cover, the more the better, because I can use it to tactically block my own LOS and focus fire on the models you don't want to lose.

You need to play more games against expert players with their lists before judging the efficacy of an army.

 The Shrike wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Drop armies have never been able to get half their army against a third of mine. They usually utterly lack blast weapons, so there is no reason not to stack my BA shoulder to shoulder as a welcoming committee.

Drop pods, due to the model, don't really do a good job of blocking LOS themselves.

And the more terrain there is on the table, the WORSE it is for the pod player, as you have fewer places to drop.

That was a poorly constructed drop pod list then. 3 TFCs is COMMON now; especially in pod lists because it's a cheap way to up your T1 numbers. If you bunch up, have fun with the 50-60 wounds I'm going to put on you with my TFCs followed by the arrival of 5 pods full of goodness.

As to cover, the more the better, because I can use it to tactically block my own LOS and focus fire on the models you don't want to lose.

You need to play more games against expert players with their lists before judging the efficacy of an army.

The marines don't seem to be doing to well at the expert level either.

Against such a list, it's not too hard to space out to minimize the effects of the small templates of a TFC. I've played against triple TFC. They cause damage, but they are stationary targets and still only have 2W. Over the course of an entire game, a Riptide or even Wave Serpent will do more damage because the TFC will die. Once you start gaming for the elite codices, nothing the marines can throw at you is really that impressive.

Your five pods have to have things from C:SM in them, right? I'm not fearing your goodness. I still have more respect for the Space Puppies. It's too bad for pod lists that the fancy new marine weapon is salvo.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheCustomLime wrote:
@Martel

Just because an army does poorly against your list doesn't mean it's a bad list. For example, an Eldar Jetbike list vs an IG Leman Russ spam list. It's a shooting gallery really especially if you can castle up behind an ADL. Does that mean Jetbike lists are bad? No, they would do well against foot armies due the insane amount of shots they can pump out.

My posted army would do well against a lot of Necron lists since it denies them the range and vehicles the 'Crons need to carry the day.

Maybe; I'm just very unconvinced by the lack of firepower in the C:SM codex. Or at least Xeno-level firepower. Also, I still maintain that if the list doesn't do well against BA, that's not a good list. The BA are miserable compared to the necrons.