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https://dp9forum.com/index.php?/topic/19666-temporary-rules-lock

Sooo... apparently I'm not the only one wondering what happened to the rules that were supposedly finished and just waiting for editing since iirc September according to a forum post at the time. Ok, just conjecture here but..



From the thread above, apparently some kickstarter rewards are waiting on the rulebook to be finished to send out. Anyone else a pessimist wondering if it might be possible that the large expense of both printing a rulebook and shipping out boxes with no direct immediate financial benefit since they were paid for a year ago pre-pandemic may be contributing to the delay? I just can't fathom how layout could be taking this long for such a relatively small product especially given the complexity of layouts in their recent products. Have the rules been changing significantly enough to justify the delay since September/October?

 warboss wrote:
Any news on the RPG? Or the nublitz rules that have been in layout supposedly since August or September? Ashley informed me of this (thanks again!) so I figured I'd post it here as well in case there are other luddites like me who don't visit those newfangled sites like reddit.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HeavyGear/comments/kaauln/my_28mm_scale_gear_project/

Loving the chonk. The Iguana is the standout winner IMO.

 warboss wrote:
https://dp9forum.com/index.php?/topic/19666-temporary-rules-lock

Sooo... apparently I'm not the only one wondering what happened to the rules that were supposedly finished and just waiting for editing since iirc September according to a forum post at the time. Ok, just conjecture here but..



From the thread above, apparently some kickstarter rewards are waiting on the rulebook to be finished to send out. Anyone else a pessimist wondering if it might be possible that the large expense of both printing a rulebook and shipping out boxes with no direct immediate financial benefit since they were paid for a year ago pre-pandemic may be contributing to the delay? I just can't fathom how layout could be taking this long for such a relatively small product especially given the complexity of layouts in their recent products. Have the rules been changing significantly enough to justify the delay since September/October?

No idea. No one on the Pod forums knows either, just that things are 'in layout', and that's it.

Page 131 unlocked! How great is that?

I don't know, but it brings me joy to see it happen.

As for the rules, Covid 19 is a big confounding variable. It has impacted publishers printing schedules globally.

 Paint it Pink wrote:
Page 131 unlocked! How great is that?

I don't know, but it brings me joy to see it happen.

As for the rules, Covid 19 is a big confounding variable. It has impacted publishers printing schedules globally.

I've been secretly awaiting the 1,000th vote in the poll. Also, happy New Year!

The pandemic does throw a wrench in many things but I thought that Robert was the one that was doing the layout/editing in the initial announcement when the rules were deemed ready back in Aug/Sept. Most if not all of the art other than the cover is reused and photos of painted minis that they have in the office set up for dioramas can still be done in house as well. The pandemic wouldn't stop him from doing that and releasing the PDF version (which they typically release a few weeks to a month early for crowdsourced proofreading).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Update on the RPG from my first check of the dp9 forum in 2021!

https://dp9forum.com/index.php?/topic/19674-heavy-gear-rpg-new-year-update/

The relevant part for me fellow grognards but obviously more info in the link above.

Some of you will be very pleased to hear that the changes we’re making will allow existing older RPG material to still be useful. The existing material still has enormous role playing value both as source material and background for building characters and campaigns in TN 1951. We’re going to support the previous eras for those who wish to do so with the new edition. A character sheet from the 2E rulebook, while not 1:1 identical to the new system, will be easily playable. There will still be a new skill list, however the old ones will remain valid - more details to come on that front. The approach we're now taking will ensure that the problems presented by large numbers of (often very specific or disparate) skills won't present the same problems.

Well, I can't help but notice some familiar bits in this new post

 HudsonD wrote:
Well, I can't help but notice some familiar bits in this new post

Could you elaborate either here in the thread or via PMs? I'm not smelling what the Rock is cooking.

In theory, e-publishing shouldn't be impacted at all by things - it's just sitting down and writing.

Playtesting (in an in-person group) is the only thing that would be restricted.

Based on prior history of rules clarity, game balance, etc. does anyone realistically think that's what the holdup is here? That DP9 is somehow waiting for playtest groups to complete various rounds of in-person testing to ensure that the rules are of highest playability and balance?

Personally, I'm kinda skeptical that would be the holdup, but I could be convinced otherwise.
____

BTW, those 28mm Gears are pretty cool. I wonder how tall they are. I'd guess 2-3", like a SM dreadnought, no?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
In theory, e-publishing shouldn't be impacted at all by things - it's just sitting down and writing.

Playtesting (in an in-person group) is the only thing that would be restricted.

Based on prior history of rules clarity, game balance, etc. does anyone realistically think that's what the holdup is here? That DP9 is somehow waiting for playtest groups to complete various rounds of in-person testing to ensure that the rules are of highest playability and balance?

Personally, I'm kinda skeptical that would be the holdup, but I could be convinced otherwise.

They've been crowdsourcing playtesting for over a year now fwiw. The guy in charge of the rules said they were ready and sent for layout a while back and that any further changes would go into the "living" document that is free. Continuing to work on the rules despite the delays is just good sense and trying to make lemonade from lemons. I can't find the original post that I was referring to but this thread says even in June that he was waiting for layout.

https://dp9forum.com/index.php?/topic/19401-heavy-gear-blitz-30-rulebook-beta-6-sep-2020-update/#comments


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

BTW, those 28mm Gears are pretty cool. I wonder how tall they are. I'd guess 2-3", like a SM dreadnought, no?

Assuming 28mm = 6ft (1.83m) and a Hunter is 4.3m then yeah. 65.8mm or 2.6in. Obviously varies with the gear though.

Warboss has it right. Most of the tweaks being discussed were supposed to be for the future update.

No one has any idea what's holding things up on the layout though.

 warboss wrote:

 HudsonD wrote:
Well, I can't help but notice some familiar bits in this new post

Could you elaborate either here in the thread or via PMs? I'm not smelling what the Rock is cooking.

Surely the other parts of the announcement:

There were quite a few requests for more "narrative" mechanics that could reflect the details of the setting and character's personalities. We've got some great ideas on how to include that without getting in the way of the beloved crunchiness we expect from Heavy Gear. We’re aiming for a gameplay experience that feels like the Heavy Gear world presented by the existing material from 1st/2nd edition (especially the short stories). We want to focus on stressed allegiances and the consequences of their conflict, multilayered individuals who felt loyalty to comrades, causes, lovers, superiors, city states, customers, governments, or enterprises that could become mutually exclusive.

For example, if your character hails from Port Oasis, given the events of Forged In Fire (as the most recent major lore update), that should have a powerful effect on a character played in TN1951 given events, so things like the character's City State will be an important part of character creation. We've got a lot of cool stuff we're working on in this regard, and will have more to share a bit later.

Finally, people have asked what other RPG's we're looking at for inspiration and ideas. We've been looking at Lancer, Alien/YearZero, Robotech Macross Saga, Iron Kingdoms, Mouse Guard, Star Trek Adventures, D&D 5E, Twilight 2013, Mork Borg, L5R, Dark Heresy, and of course Heavy Gear 1st and 2nd Edition!

The first seems to tacitly answer some of the questions posed in this very thread (actually it seems like they'd want to go for a mechanic at least influenced by the ninjo/giri interactions on L5R), the last seems to imply that they're going forward actually paying attention to other games outside HG, and the ones selected seem to imply they have been listening.

Then again, even with all the acknowledges and with Vaktathi being a dakka mod... dakka seems to be completely absent from that, which is interesting.

But hey, they seem to be listening to feedback, which is very good, and seem to be educating themselves on modern mechanics, which is also very good... as long as they don't just copy them and instead actually understand them and use them to further their design goals, that is. It is a bit disappointing to notice that this is being done now instead of before starting the project, but well... all's well that ends well. Hopefully they've revised their project from the ground up and redone it with a strong core theme that they can build up from.

Personally, being a fan of lifepath character creation, I'm happy to see they're taking a look at STA and L5R for inspiration, and if they want more of that I'll be happy to obligue.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
They've been crowdsourcing playtesting for over a year now fwiw. The guy in charge of the rules said they were ready and sent for layout a while back and that any further changes would go into the "living" document that is free. Continuing to work on the rules despite the delays is just good sense and trying to make lemonade from lemons. I can't find the original post that I was referring to but this thread says even in June that he was waiting for layout.

Well, they've been "crowdsourcing" playtesting for 10-15 years now, but these last... I wanna say five years or so, they've completely opened it with their open alphas. But that would speed up the testing, if anything, not slow it down.

And then there's the fact, as JHDD stated, that they are a very small group of people working on e-publishing and doing writing and layout from home, so... I can gauge the amount of work you can do in that regard, pretty much to the decimals, as I actually do that for a living. This year, by myself, I've done work on... let me see: 7 full RPG books, 7 web DLCs for those, 3 novellas and about 30 short stories. And that's with a full time job and only counting what I've done as paid work, not just for fun. I've translated and laid out two full RPGs for fun, one of which they're reading for inspiration for HG now.

So I would say writing a single book is pretty doable, all things considered.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mmmpi wrote:
Warboss has it right. Most of the tweaks being discussed were supposed to be for the future update.

No one has any idea what's holding things up on the layout though.

Maybe they don't see any profit on it, seeing as the current version seems to work for their needs. Pretty much an eternal "Open Beta" period.

If the current version works, then there's no need to change. That said, it's always nice to have printed hardcopy as physical reference.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If the current version works, then there's no need to change. That said, it's always nice to have printed hardcopy as physical reference.

It's also something some people already are owed, from the KS.

No body know the reason of the delay and there is no logical reason for it.

Not one anybody outside the Pod knows at least.

It is one of those things DP9 keep doing, they have made a lot of positive changes in the last few years but still we have this absurd delay.

the game needs the book, even if only in PDF

 Albertorius wrote:

And then there's the fact, as JHDD stated, that they are a very small group of people working on e-publishing and doing writing and layout from home, so... I can gauge the amount of work you can do in that regard, pretty much to the decimals, as I actually do that for a living. This year, by myself, I've done work on... let me see: 7 full RPG books, 7 web DLCs for those, 3 novellas and about 30 short stories. And that's with a full time job and only counting what I've done as paid work, not just for fun. I've translated and laid out two full RPGs for fun, one of which they're reading for inspiration for HG now.

So I would say writing a single book is pretty doable, all things considered.

It's too bad dakka doesn't have humblebrag tags for posts. Stop making me look bad with my half dozen gakky blog posts for 2020! It's bad enough that you're extra productive in 3d printing and painting those prints but now you add this!! And, even in my own personal hobby malaise, I obviously agree that it would have been doable.

Maybe they don't see any profit on it, seeing as the current version seems to work for their needs. Pretty much an eternal "Open Beta" period.

That's my guess as well at least in the pandemic era. I'm not ascribing malice to it though but rather a temporally sensible (for them albeit at the expense of the already paid customers) business decision frankly. I think most of us here either backed the Robotech kickstarter or at least heard of the debacle and how little teeth KS terms and conditions actually have.

 Albertorius wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If the current version works, then there's no need to change. That said, it's always nice to have printed hardcopy as physical reference.

It's also something some people already are owed, from the KS.

Plus a random word doc doesn't a rulebook make.

It needs a layout just to not look like jury rigged gak.

 Mmmpi wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
If the current version works, then there's no need to change. That said, it's always nice to have printed hardcopy as physical reference.

It's also something some people already are owed, from the KS.

Plus a random word doc doesn't a rulebook make.

It needs a layout just to not look like jury rigged gak.

I have the old InDesign templates they had from back in L&L. They could very easily use that and have a workable, very decent looking book done in a week, tops.

If they wanted.

I do cut eveyone some slack nowadays, though. It's not exactly an easy time to be in this God's green Earth.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pointman wrote:
No body know the reason of the delay and there is no logical reason for it.

Not one anybody outside the Pod knows at least.

It is one of those things DP9 keep doing, they have made a lot of positive changes in the last few years but still we have this absurd delay.

the game needs the book, even if only in PDF

Plus, you already have it on DTRPG, so a PDF equates a physical book and a distribution chain. Do that, and do away with shipping annoyances.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:
It's too bad dakka doesn't have humblebrag tags for posts. Stop making me look bad with my half dozen gakky blog posts for 2020! It's bad enough that your extra productive in 3d printing and painting those prints but not you add this!! And, even in my own personal hobby malaise, I obviously agree that it would have been doable.

Hey, I'm pretty aware of my own limitations, but I also know you can do stuff

I mean, the books is already mostly done, right? Layout is the "easy" part, people!

That's my guess as well at least in the pandemic era. I'm not ascribing malice to it though but rather a temporally sensible (for them albeit at the expense of the already paid customers) business decision frankly. I think most of us here either backed the Robotech kickstarter or at least heard of the debacle and how little teeth KS terms and conditions actually have.

No, as I said, it's a... gakky time to live through, and I'm pretty sure it has wreaked havoc through their schedules in both evident and subtle ways, like eveyone else's, and I have to cut people slack for that.

But I think they had the book at this stage since before the pandemic, so who knows, really.

You're not wrong with the templates Albertorius.

And considering Rob was supposed to be working on it during his 'delivery quarantine downtime', I'm surprised it's taken this long.

That isn't to say layout isn't potentially time consuming though. I make a lot of slides (powerpoints) for my job, and deciding what goes where, and what to move, or cut due to space and time is more time consuming than the research to build them in the first place. But it's still a very long wait, even for that.

The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is that they were expecting new art, and that was late.

I have loved HG ever since I got the pc game way back when. When I finally got back into gaming and found out this setting had mini's I was all for it.

Then I looked at DP9, their rules, releases, and everything. It was a total train wreck. I honesty spent half an hour flipping through DTRPG and their site trying to find out what rulebooks were current. This is normally a simple task. Once I started looking through their forums and others it was like someone just set fire to the wreck.

This was around ten years ago. Then last year in March they happened to be at Cold Wars. Nice plastic models and a demo of the new ruleset coming out soon. I picked up a Northern starter and was hooked.


Nearly a year later that decade old flaming wreck seems to be rolling down the same track.

Veldrain wrote:
I have loved HG ever since I got the pc game way back when. When I finally got back into gaming and found out this setting had mini's I was all for it.

Then I looked at DP9, their rules, releases, and everything. It was a total train wreck. I honesty spent half an hour flipping through DTRPG and their site trying to find out what rulebooks were current. This is normally a simple task. Once I started looking through their forums and others it was like someone just set fire to the wreck.

This was around ten years ago. Then last year in March they happened to be at Cold Wars. Nice plastic models and a demo of the new ruleset coming out soon. I picked up a Northern starter and was hooked.


Nearly a year later that decade old flaming wreck seems to be rolling down the same track.

It's more an inability to just cancel or properly update new material and move ALL the old material into an "Obsolete" status. There is a ton of old source material that has never been updated or included in new product, and therefore, DP9 continues to sell it. The biggest problem is that its impossible to figure out what edition any of that source material is for. At one point the source books were meant to update each faction and bring the game forward into a cohesive format, but they gave up after what, three books? NUCOL, South, and PAX? Then the "new" edition of Blitz was announced, and how many beta rules books have they come out with? The game needs a hard reset, and all the old material needs to be moved into a clearly marked "obsolete" category, with the new edition given a different title or something. 'Heavy Gear Rebooted' or some such.

 Tamwulf wrote:

Veldrain wrote:
I have loved HG ever since I got the pc game way back when. When I finally got back into gaming and found out this setting had mini's I was all for it.

Then I looked at DP9, their rules, releases, and everything. It was a total train wreck. I honesty spent half an hour flipping through DTRPG and their site trying to find out what rulebooks were current. This is normally a simple task. Once I started looking through their forums and others it was like someone just set fire to the wreck.

This was around ten years ago. Then last year in March they happened to be at Cold Wars. Nice plastic models and a demo of the new ruleset coming out soon. I picked up a Northern starter and was hooked.


Nearly a year later that decade old flaming wreck seems to be rolling down the same track.

It's more an inability to just cancel or properly update new material and move ALL the old material into an "Obsolete" status. There is a ton of old source material that has never been updated or included in new product, and therefore, DP9 continues to sell it. The biggest problem is that its impossible to figure out what edition any of that source material is for. At one point the source books were meant to update each faction and bring the game forward into a cohesive format, but they gave up after what, three books? NUCOL, South, and PAX? Then the "new" edition of Blitz was announced, and how many beta rules books have they come out with? The game needs a hard reset, and all the old material needs to be moved into a clearly marked "obsolete" category, with the new edition given a different title or something. 'Heavy Gear Rebooted' or some such.

I haven't really been paying attention lately but isn't DP9 essentially a one man operation now?

A reboot would require serious project management and a willingness to let go of old ideas, neither of which is a strength for most small game companies.

 ScarletRose wrote:
I haven't really been paying attention lately but isn't DP9 essentially a one man operation now?

A reboot would require serious project management and a willingness to let go of old ideas, neither of which is a strength for most small game companies.

It's essentially been that since SilCORE. Meaning, for about the last 15 years.

The hard reset is the current rules.

The problem is that the latest rules are still in layout... according to a Discort member that is part of the RPG crew the book will be ready soon.

So, for those of you who don't follow the DP9 facebook page, apparently part of the rules delay was packing and shipping holiday orders.

 Pointman wrote:
The hard reset is the current rules.

The problem is that the latest rules are still in layout... according to a Discort member that is part of the RPG crew the book will be ready soon.

IIRC Robert once mentioned that they had used Quark Express in the past, and therefore was having to learn InDesign, which may be out of date news,

But, using design programmes is a learning curve, and if you don't keep practicing you have to relearn how to layout a page every single time.

Ask me how I know?*

*Please don't. I used to be a hotshot Quark DTP person back in the day, but my days of designing magazines etc is long over.

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, for those of you who don't follow the DP9 facebook page, apparently part of the rules delay was packing and shipping holiday orders.

I appreciate the update as I don't follow them.

 Paint it Pink wrote:
IIRC Robert once mentioned that they had used Quark Express in the past, and therefore was having to learn InDesign, which may be out of date news.

It is demonstrably untrue at least as far back as the edition before L&L, as I have the InDesign templates for those, provided by Robert.

 warboss wrote:

 Mmmpi wrote:
So, for those of you who don't follow the DP9 facebook page, apparently part of the rules delay was packing and shipping holiday orders.

I appreciate the update as I don't follow them.

NP

 Tamwulf wrote:

Veldrain wrote:
I have loved HG ever since I got the pc game way back when. When I finally got back into gaming and found out this setting had mini's I was all for it.

Then I looked at DP9, their rules, releases, and everything. It was a total train wreck. I honesty spent half an hour flipping through DTRPG and their site trying to find out what rulebooks were current. This is normally a simple task. Once I started looking through their forums and others it was like someone just set fire to the wreck.

This was around ten years ago. Then last year in March they happened to be at Cold Wars. Nice plastic models and a demo of the new ruleset coming out soon. I picked up a Northern starter and was hooked.


Nearly a year later that decade old flaming wreck seems to be rolling down the same track.

It's more an inability to just cancel or properly update new material and move ALL the old material into an "Obsolete" status. There is a ton of old source material that has never been updated or included in new product, and therefore, DP9 continues to sell it. The biggest problem is that its impossible to figure out what edition any of that source material is for. At one point the source books were meant to update each faction and bring the game forward into a cohesive format, but they gave up after what, three books? NUCOL, South, and PAX? Then the "new" edition of Blitz was announced, and how many beta rules books have they come out with? The game needs a hard reset, and all the old material needs to be moved into a clearly marked "obsolete" category, with the new edition given a different title or something. 'Heavy Gear Rebooted' or some such.

So, on this topic, because that frustration is totally real, I've actually built a list breaking down the product codes, titles, year of release, and editions for all Heavy Gear printed material based on what I could scrape up across the interwebs.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1nvzrfCYIGCE_5hDSVo2e07IEfYkeoGR0cwvWGxdhJw4/edit?usp=sharing

My time has been pretty monopolized by life lately so I haven't been on Dakka as much as I normally am, and I'm not any more informed on the status of Blitz layout/progress than anyone else here is unfortunately, but figured the list would be handy for some. Trying to keep all the content straight is a nightmare, as much as I love the universe

Thanks for the update on both fronts.